RealGM

Pure passing, not "playmaking", so no scoring component and not overall offence.

If ranking them 1 by 1 is too much effort, tiers will suffice.

LeBron
Bird
Jimmy Butler
Paul Pierce
Pippen
Ginobilli
MJ
Kobe
Wade
Harden
Magic
Stockton
Kidd
Nash
Paul
Rondo
Ben Simmons
Zeke
Curry
Lowry
Tony Parker
Billups
Jokic
Garnett

God damnit I accidentally deleted MJ before posting and never noticed

LeBron = 97
Bird =100
Jimmy Butler = 77
Paul Pierce = 78
Pippen = 90
Ginobilli = 92
Kobe = 87
Wade = 85
Harden =89
Magic = 100
Stockton = 96
Kidd = 96
Nash = 95
Paul =95
Rondo = 94
Ben Simmons = 90
Zeke =95
Curry = 89
Lowry = 73
Tony Parker = 76
Billups = 76
Jokic = 93
Garnett = 84

Off the top of my head

Nash
Magic
Jokic
Bird

Paul
Kidd
LeBron
Stockton
Harden
Rondo
Zeke
Manu


Curry
Pippen
Lowry

Simmons
Billups
Parker

Garnett
Butler
Wade
Pierce

Colbinii wrote:Off the top of my head

Nash
Magic
Jokic
Bird

Paul
Kidd
LeBron
Stockton
Harden
Rondo
Zeke
Manu


Curry
Pippen
Lowry

Simmons
Billups
Parker

Garnett
Butler
Wade
Pierce

What would you say seperates Tier 1 from 2, 2 from 3, 3 from 4, etc

Tier 1: Most Creative, quickest response times/sense of where the ball needs to go, no weaknesses in terms of passing or passing/play types, can pass efficiently without relying on scoring to set up playmaking game [This is one of the key ones]

Tier 2: I would say these players possess, in some capacity, most of what is in Tier 1 but not all of the attributes. These guys [unlike tier 3] were in conversations for best passer in game and can be the clear cut main passer/playmaker for a great offense.

Tier 3 and 4 aren't very different and Tier 5 are clearly the worst here.

Colbinii wrote:Off the top of my head

Nash
Magic
Jokic
Bird

Paul
Kidd
LeBron
Stockton
Harden
Rondo
Zeke
Manu


Curry
Pippen
Lowry

Simmons
Billups
Parker

Garnett
Butler
Wade
Pierce

I like this list, I tried but too many factors and too many players on the list to really make anything worthwhile.

I would move Curry up and Thomas/Manu down. I would move Simmons up a spot but otherwise looks good. Maybe I'd put Bron in tier 1

Colbinii wrote:Off the top of my head

Nash
Magic
Jokic
Bird

Paul
Kidd
LeBron
Stockton
Harden
Rondo
Zeke
Manu


Curry
Pippen
Lowry

Simmons
Billups
Parker

Garnett
Butler
Wade
Pierce

i feel like garnett was capsble of some great passes and reads when i watched him

i dont think his vision was worse than curry or Parker for example

Which tier would MJ go into? I assume 3.

jasonxxx102 wrote:

Colbinii wrote:Off the top of my head

Nash
Magic
Jokic
Bird

Paul
Kidd
LeBron
Stockton
Harden
Rondo
Zeke
Manu


Curry
Pippen
Lowry

Simmons
Billups
Parker

Garnett
Butler
Wade
Pierce

I like this list, I tried but too many factors and too many players on the list to really make anything worthwhile.

I would move Curry up and Thomas/Manu down. I would move Simmons up a spot but otherwise looks good. Maybe I'd put Bron in tier 1

Do you think that Curry is a better passer than Thomas or Manu? I wouldn't agree with that.

I think Lebron is rather unique with his passing because he has flexed is 'peak' up and down more than anyone here depending on his requirement to Score for his team.

I think over his 19 years he has shown consistent enough Peaks to rival those in Tier 1.

He is also the GOAT skip/cross court passer and ability to hit people at the 3[t line is almost unrivaled.

Magic/Bird etc are arguably better but Lebron would be a Tier 1 passer imo. I think Lebrons overall aesthetic has stopped some people from recognizing his true ability (similar to scoring)

Colbinii wrote:Off the top of my head

Nash
Magic
Jokic
Bird

Paul
Kidd
LeBron
Stockton
Harden
Rondo
Zeke
Manu


Curry
Pippen
Lowry

Simmons
Billups
Parker

Garnett
Butler
Wade
Pierce

Good list, I would switch Simmons with Curry and put Manu to Pippen group. Also squeezing Luka to the second group next to Harden.

NbaAllDay wrote:I think Lebron is rather unique with his passing because he has flexed is 'peak' up and down more than anyone here depending on his requirement to Score for his team.

I think over his 19 years he has shown consistent enough Peaks to rival those in Tier 1.

He is also the GOAT skip/cross court passer and ability to hit people at the 3[t line is almost unrivaled.

Magic/Bird etc are arguably better but Lebron would be a Tier 1 passer imo. I think Lebrons overall aesthetic has stopped some people from recognizing his true ability (similar to scoring)

i think sometimes guys who create off penetración and do a lot of "simple" kick out passing may get underated as passers

in a sense, their ability to create those easy passes may make people understimate their skill cause kick outs dont usually look impressive and that is often their most common pass

in lebron case i think ben Taylor videos on him make a good job showcasing his passing/decisión making skill as well as some weaknesses

Bird
Nash
Magic-Stockton-Paul tied
Jokic

Stockton jumps up a rung if I count running the most efficient play as part of pure passing. But I don't count running the most efficient play as part of pure passing because LeBron creating somebody to pass to by drawing a help defender to himself is related to running an efficient play like Stockton working the angles correctly with himself and Karl Malone and their teammates. Court vision is separate from throwing the best possible pass. Bird had both top teir court vision and threw the best possible pass (fast, slow, lob, bounce, touch pass, behind the back, look away, full court, lead the reciever, whatever pass is needed).

Math says that Bird can't be number 1 but that is what I saw. Same for Jokic. What is the chance that guys in the top 1 percent for height would be better than the next 40 percent at passing? The bottom 60% in height are too short for NBA except for a few under 6 foot guys. So what is the explantion? How can Bird and Jokic defy probability and be so high on my list? Maybe I am forgetting that the smaller players are as freakishly quick as Bird and Jokic are tall and so the smaller guys are in the 1% for speed like Bird and Jokic are for height.

LeBron is not that special as a passer once you remove his driving threat and the fact that he has the ball all the time. In "pure passing" I would take Draymond Green over LeBron.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Bird
Nash
Magic-Stockton-Paul tied
Jokic

Math says that Bird can't be number 1 but that is what I saw. Same for Jokic. What is the chance that guys in the top 1 percent for height would be better than the next 40 percent at passing? The bottom 60% in height are too short for NBA except for a few under 6 foot guys. So what is the explantion? How can Bird and Jokic defy probability and be so high on my list? Maybe I am forgetting that the smaller players are as freakishly quick as Bird and Jokic are tall and so the smaller guys are in the 1% for speed like Bird and Jokic are for height.

LeBron is not that special as a passer once you remove his driving threat and the fact that he has the ball all the time. In "pure passing" I would take Draymond Green over LeBron.

honest question what kind of pass or read draymond does that lebron couldnt do?

falcolombardi wrote:

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Bird
Nash
Magic-Stockton-Paul tied
Jokic

Math says that Bird can't be number 1 but that is what I saw. Same for Jokic. What is the chance that guys in the top 1 percent for height would be better than the next 40 percent at passing? The bottom 60% in height are too short for NBA except for a few under 6 foot guys. So what is the explantion? How can Bird and Jokic defy probability and be so high on my list? Maybe I am forgetting that the smaller players are as freakishly quick as Bird and Jokic are tall and so the smaller guys are in the 1% for speed like Bird and Jokic are for height.

LeBron is not that special as a passer once you remove his driving threat and the fact that he has the ball all the time. In "pure passing" I would take Draymond Green over LeBron.

honest question what kind of pass or read draymond does that lebron couldnt do?

Quick pass/ catch and pass. Also I think Draymond chooses the right guy to pass to better than LeBron and makes the Perfect pass better than LeBron and fails to see the open man less than LeBron.

I am giving LeBron no extra points for needlessly flashy passes. I don't know how the game looks to the players on the floor but on my Tv when LeBron stares left or stares right while dribling I know in advance that he is throwing a look away pass in the opposite direction. I never know where Draymond is passing before he makes the pass. I think LeBron takes more time to decide where he is passing and then he is more likely to get mentally locked into passing where he thought he was going to pass to and not changing his mind quickly when appropriate. I think Draymond has better cort vision.

I think People overate LeBron's passing because they love LeBron and because LeBron passes out of fast drives and because they are impressed by LeBron's lookaway passes. I think LeBrons look away passes are a bit overdone, mechanical and a little telagraphed to me from the angle the TV camera gave me but telagraphed to me does not mean telegraphed to the defenders running through the chaos.

Bird Lookaways fooled me? LeBron Look aways don't fool me. Bird Look aways fooled defenders. Sometimes LeBron fools defenders. Draymond is not as fancy but the quick pass, catch and pass is too quick for defenders. Draymonds passes off the slow trot drive are thrown to the right place without being telagraphed.

The problem with Draymond compared to LeBron is that Draymond's drive does not scare anybody and he can't draw in help defenders like LeBron does. LeBron's threat to score off the drive draws the help defenders which creates open men to pass to. Dominique Wilkins drew help defenders but Dominique did not see the open man as good as LeBron does. Draymond can't draw help defenders and scores poorly but I think Draymond sees the open men a little better than LeBron does.

I feel like LeBron is trying to be like Magic and isn't quite pulling it off. Magic Johnson just flowed. Draymond would not be as good if he tried to be like Magic. When Draymond tries to be like Magic he starts throwing turnovers.

I think Stockton, Chris Paul, and Muggsy Bogues are being underrated here. They might just be my top 3, certainly above Bird and Lebron. Guys like LeBron and Bird relied more on their size and their scoring threat for their creation abilities, Stockton and Bogues, particularly, were played to pass almost exclusively and yet succeeded better than anyone else in history. They were just more efficiency, less flashy, and of the two, I'd rank the efficiency higher.

stockton
james
bird
magic
kidd
jokic
nash

those are the best pure passers on the list. everybody else can fight for the next tier.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Bird
Nash
Magic-Stockton-Paul tied
Jokic

Stockton jumps up a rung if I count running the most efficient play as part of pure passing. But I don't count running the most efficient play as part of pure passing because LeBron creating somebody to pass to by drawing a help defender to himself is related to running an efficient play like Stockton working the angles correctly with himself and Karl Malone and their teammates. Court vision is separate from throwing the best possible pass. Bird had both top teir court vision and threw the best possible pass (fast, slow, lob, bounce, touch pass, behind the back, look away, full court, lead the reciever, whatever pass is needed).

Math says that Bird can't be number 1 but that is what I saw. Same for Jokic. What is the chance that guys in the top 1 percent for height would be better than the next 40 percent at passing? The bottom 60% in height are too short for NBA except for a few under 6 foot guys. So what is the explantion? How can Bird and Jokic defy probability and be so high on my list? Maybe I am forgetting that the smaller players are as freakishly quick as Bird and Jokic are tall and so the smaller guys are in the 1% for speed like Bird and Jokic are for height.

LeBron is not that special as a passer once you remove his driving threat and the fact that he has the ball all the time. In "pure passing" I would take Draymond Green over LeBron.

He doesn't have the ball all the time. I'm too lazy to post the numbers again but he was likely less ball dominant than literally every PG on that list, like he usually is. 2016 Curry was more ball dominant than 2016 Lebron for example.

And yet again Wade severely underrated.

McBubbles wrote:Pure passing, not "playmaking", so no scoring component and not overall offence.

If ranking them 1 by 1 is too much effort, tiers will suffice.

LeBron - Leagues top passers
Bird - Arguably best passer in the league
Jimmy Butler - Above average to league top passers
Paul Pierce - slightly above average
Pippen - above average
Ginobilli - league top passers
MJ - above average
Kobe - slightly above average
Wade - above average
Harden - league top passers
Magic - GOAT level
Stockton - GOAT level
Kidd - Historic top passers
Nash - Historic top passers to GOAT level
Paul - Historic top passer to GOAT level
Rondo - League best passer to historic top passers
Ben Simmons - above average
Zeke - league best to historic top
Curry - league top passer
Lowry - league top passer
Tony Parker - league top passer
Billups - league top passer
Jokic - league best
Garnett - above average

God damnit I accidentally deleted MJ before posting and never noticed

Oscar and Cousy also are the two historic passers which almost crack the GOAT level.