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At their peak who is a better defender, Big Ben or Gobert?

Great shotblockers and defensive anchors.

Personally I think Ben was more versatile and had better physical skills. Gobert is certainly the best defensive Center nowadays.

I'd probably go with Wallace, Gobert is probably the better post defender due to Wallace's limited size, rebounding and shot blocking is probably more or less as wash but Wallace seems like a better help defender and would do better in space.

migya wrote:At their peak who is a better defender, Big Ben or Gobert?

Great shotblockers and defensive anchors.

Personally I think Ben was more versatile and had better physical skills. Gobert is certainly the best defensive Center nowadays.

Rudy Gobert has been played off the floor in the playoffs.

Ben Wallace was doing a good job on shaq in a finals detroit won

Ben Wallace was one of the best perimeter defender in his era while Gober is one of the worst. Both were historic rim protectors, though.

feyki wrote:Ben Wallace was one of the best perimeter defender in his era while Gober is one of the worst. Both were historic rim protectors, though.

Gobert is nowhere near "one of the worst" perimeter defenders of his era. There's nothing to support this idea.

While Gobert isn't elite on the perimeter, he's pretty good. People have 1 or 2 memories of Gobert getting dusted and are forming an opinion on that. Gobert is extremely solid all-around.

jamaalstar21 wrote:

feyki wrote:Ben Wallace was one of the best perimeter defender in his era while Gober is one of the worst. Both were historic rim protectors, though.

Gobert is nowhere near "one of the worst" perimeter defenders of his era. There's nothing to support this idea.

While Gobert isn't elite on the perimeter, he's pretty good. People have 1 or 2 memories of Gobert getting dusted and are forming an opinion on that. Gobert is extremely solid all-around.

Clippers series in the last playoffs says otherwise.

feyki wrote:

jamaalstar21 wrote:

feyki wrote:Ben Wallace was one of the best perimeter defender in his era while Gober is one of the worst. Both were historic rim protectors, though.

Gobert is nowhere near "one of the worst" perimeter defenders of his era. There's nothing to support this idea.

While Gobert isn't elite on the perimeter, he's pretty good. People have 1 or 2 memories of Gobert getting dusted and are forming an opinion on that. Gobert is extremely solid all-around.

Clippers series in the last playoffs says otherwise.

You don't even need to watch the games to figure out this is a false narrative, go watch the highlights of the Clippers scoring.

Clippers played 5 out as much as possible, in an effort to pull Rudy away from the rim. The Jazz countered as best they could by putting Rudy on the least threatening shooter, which was usually either Nic Batum or Terrence Mann. The Jazz tried to have Gobert mostly ignore his assignment to protect the paint, which definitely didn't work as Batum and Mann shot around 50% on open 3s. Anytime Rudy left the paint, the Jazz got murdered by Morris, PG, Reggie Jackson. But if think that Rudy was getting blown by on the perimeter all game, you didn't watch. The Jazz's defense was also very strong with Rudy on the floor and horrible without him (he had a playoff on/off of +15 last year, the best mark of his career).

Anyone still buying the "rudy can't defend in the playoffs" narrative, made up their minds back in 2017 and haven't been paying close attention since.

This isn't some unique take by me, this has been well discussed by all sorts of film analysts. There's just nothing to back this stuff up anymore.

jamaalstar21 wrote:

feyki wrote:

jamaalstar21 wrote:
Gobert is nowhere near "one of the worst" perimeter defenders of his era. There's nothing to support this idea.

While Gobert isn't elite on the perimeter, he's pretty good. People have 1 or 2 memories of Gobert getting dusted and are forming an opinion on that. Gobert is extremely solid all-around.

Clippers series in the last playoffs says otherwise.

You don't even need to watch the games to figure out this is a false narrative, go watch the highlights of the Clippers scoring.

Clippers played 5 out as much as possible, in an effort to pull Rudy away from the rim. The Jazz countered as best they could by putting Rudy on the least threatening shooter, which was usually either Nic Batum or Terrence Mann. The Jazz tried to have Gobert mostly ignore his assignment to protect the paint, which definitely didn't work as Batum and Mann shot around 50% on open 3s. Anytime Rudy left the paint, the Jazz got murdered by Morris, PG, Reggie Jackson. But if think that Rudy was getting blown by on the perimeter all game, you didn't watch. The Jazz's defense was also very strong with Rudy on the floor and horrible without him (he had a playoff on/off of +15 last year, the best mark of his career).

Anyone still buying the "rudy can't defend in the playoffs" narrative, made up their minds back in 2017 and haven't been paying close attention since.

This isn't some unique take by me, this has been well discussed by all sorts of film analysts. There's just nothing to back this stuff up anymore.

Gober's on court defensive rating was 122 in that series and it's without Kawhi half of the series.

feyki wrote:

jamaalstar21 wrote:

feyki wrote:
Clippers series in the last playoffs says otherwise.

You don't even need to watch the games to figure out this is a false narrative, go watch the highlights of the Clippers scoring.

Clippers played 5 out as much as possible, in an effort to pull Rudy away from the rim. The Jazz countered as best they could by putting Rudy on the least threatening shooter, which was usually either Nic Batum or Terrence Mann. The Jazz tried to have Gobert mostly ignore his assignment to protect the paint, which definitely didn't work as Batum and Mann shot around 50% on open 3s. Anytime Rudy left the paint, the Jazz got murdered by Morris, PG, Reggie Jackson. But if think that Rudy was getting blown by on the perimeter all game, you didn't watch. The Jazz's defense was also very strong with Rudy on the floor and horrible without him (he had a playoff on/off of +15 last year, the best mark of his career).

Anyone still buying the "rudy can't defend in the playoffs" narrative, made up their minds back in 2017 and haven't been paying close attention since.

This isn't some unique take by me, this has been well discussed by all sorts of film analysts. There's just nothing to back this stuff up anymore.

Gober's on court defensive rating was 122 in that series and it's without Kawhi half of the series.

So you don't care about the facts? Facts that Clippers didn't try to exploit Gobert on perimeter?

Do you want to see Jazz defensive rating in the series without Gobert?

70sFan wrote:

feyki wrote:
Gober's on court defensive rating was 122 in that series and it's without Kawhi half of the series.

So you don't care about the facts? Facts that Clippers didn't try to exploit Gobert on perimeter?

That's what was the my point. He's one of the worst perimeter defenders and Clips well used it.

Do you want to see Jazz defensive rating in the series without Gobert?

Yes. 20th best defence Mavs allowed 122 points per 100 possesions by that Clippers. 5 out Clippers made Gober's Jazz looks like top 10 worst defence Mavs even while only Gober's on court minutes.

feyki wrote:

70sFan wrote:

feyki wrote:
Gober's on court defensive rating was 122 in that series and it's without Kawhi half of the series.

So you don't care about the facts? Facts that Clippers didn't try to exploit Gobert on perimeter?

That's what was the my point. He's one of the worst perimeter defenders and Clips well used it.

Do you want to see Jazz defensive rating in the series without Gobert?

Yes. 20th best defence Mavs allowed 122 points per 100 possesions by that Clippers. 5 out Clippers made Gober's Jazz looks like top 10 worst defence Mavs even while only Gober's on court minutes.

I'm pretty sure Gobert turned Clippers team into 43.3% shooting from the three point line... (they shot 37% vs Mavs)

Wait, you said in another debate that we shouldn't blame centers for that.

70sFan wrote:

feyki wrote:

70sFan wrote:

That's what was the my point. He's one of the worst perimeter defenders and Clips well used it.

Do you want to see Jazz defensive rating in the series without Gobert?

Yes. 20th best defence Mavs allowed 122 points per 100 possesions by that Clippers. 5 out Clippers made Gober's Jazz looks like top 10 worst defence Mavs even while only Gober's on court minutes.

I'm pretty sure Gobert turned Clippers team into 43.3% shooting from the three point line... (they shot 37% vs Mavs)

Wait, you said in another debate that we shouldn't blame centers for that.

I don't blame Gobert. Just saying Ben Wallace had also perimeter defence, which is rare for ATG defensive bigs. I know only Russell,Robinson,Hakeem,Wallace and anyone else?

feyki wrote:

70sFan wrote:

feyki wrote:
Yes. 20th best defence Mavs allowed 122 points per 100 possesions by that Clippers. 5 out Clippers made Gober's Jazz looks like top 10 worst defence Mavs even while only Gober's on court minutes.

I'm pretty sure Gobert turned Clippers team into 43.3% shooting from the three point line... (they shot 37% vs Mavs)

Wait, you said in another debate that we shouldn't blame centers for that.

I don't blame Gobert. Just saying Ben Wallace had also perimeter defence, which is rare for ATG defensive bigs. I know only Russell,Robinson,Hakeem,Wallace and anyone else?

You said that Gobert is one of the worst perimeter defender in the league because of Clippers series. So yeah, it seems that you blame him for that.

Robinson wasn't much of a perimeter defender by the way.

I mean if I have Rudy Gobert or Ben Wallace, I'm not looking at them to be my perimeter stopper....

And anyone who thinks that Ben Wallace wouldn't get dragged into a billion PNR's if he played during Gobert's era is fooling themselves. And they are fooling themselves further if they think Wallace is shutting down Steph or Kawhi out at teh 3-pt line with a live dribble.

We are still making up narratives regarding the Clippers/Jazz series?

The Jazz had nobody who could stop or defend dribble penetration against the Clippers this resulted in nearly every play Utah playing with a broken down defense and wide open shots for Los Angeles.

The Clippers were able to generate 12 OPEN 3PA/G against Utah [45.8% 3P%] and 19 WIDE OPEN 3PA/G against Utah [41.9% 3P%].

Thats 31 Open 3PA per game. This had nothing to do with Rudy Gobert. Defensive Anchors don't give up open 3's, teams do.

Considering Gobert has been gameplanned for in playoffs, I'd take Big Ben due to his greater perimeter mobility. I'd say he fits modern era on defense more than Gobert, he would be nearly unplayable on offense but that's a different question.

Texas Chuck wrote:I mean if I have Rudy Gobert or Ben Wallace, I'm not looking at them to be my perimeter stopper....

And anyone who thinks that Ben Wallace wouldn't get dragged into a billion PNR's if he played during Gobert's era is fooling themselves. And they are fooling themselves further if they think Wallace is shutting down Steph or Kawhi out at teh 3-pt line with a live dribble.

There weren't the same strategies for pulling a rim protector out of drop (I know it wasn't called drop back then, but whatever we called that kind of committed paint protection). Ben did look incredibly twitchy, slithery, and proactive on the rare occasion he ended up switching. So I get why some people (myself included) give him the benefit of the doubt that he'd be excellent. Those hands, the ones that made him one of the worst offensive players of all-time, were the opposite on defense as he was extremely disruptive and could bust out some kawhi like cobra strikes at the ball. He more commonly used this ability to poke away the ball on entry passes, but I saw it on many occasions on the perimeter too. Just a very disruptive player with his reflexes. Combine that with his uncanny ability to get above jump shooters with those teleportation hops, and I'd say we saw little glimpses of a total perimeter skill set.

Now Ben Wallace under Larry Brown (and next to Rasheed) would do a ton of hedging. Ben was incredibly fast (and again: proactive) getting out on top of the screen and then recovering back into the paint (quite often for some highlight blocks). Ben rotated like nobody's business in this kind of action. Switching on the Kobe, forcing a pass, and he's already back in the paint fronting Shaq before the next pass can happen.

The Pistons would even put him at the top of a full court press sometimes.

Ben though, (unlike Rudy) played in pretty perfect defensive situations for his prime. Those kind of free lancing moves worked better because he was doing them in between the shutdown defenses of Rasheed and Tayshaun Prince (instead of Bojan Bogdanovic and Donovan Mitchell).

I have Ben up there with Hakeem and KG as one of the most mobile bigs ever.

Texas Chuck wrote:I mean if I have Rudy Gobert or Ben Wallace, I'm not looking at them to be my perimeter stopper....

And anyone who thinks that Ben Wallace wouldn't get dragged into a billion PNR's if he played during Gobert's era is fooling themselves. And they are fooling themselves further if they think Wallace is shutting down Steph or Kawhi out at teh 3-pt line with a live dribble.

Louder for the people in the back please

Texas Chuck wrote:I mean if I have Rudy Gobert or Ben Wallace, I'm not looking at them to be my perimeter stopper....

And anyone who thinks that Ben Wallace wouldn't get dragged into a billion PNR's if he played during Gobert's era is fooling themselves. And they are fooling themselves further if they think Wallace is shutting down Steph or Kawhi out at teh 3-pt line with a live dribble.

His successor done very well on those picks and switches. His defence effected Kobe's and T-Mac's game when they faced in the Playoffs.

Don't know about Steph, but if Draymond limits Lebron's game,I'm sure Wallace do it against Kawhi, too.

To make it clear, I'm not criticizing Gobert for it. Just Ben Wallace was an outlier, who is the second defensive GOAT of me. Historic rim protection and plus positive perimeter defence is tooo rare. Just Russell,Hakeem,Robinson and Wallace. Only 4 guys over the 75 years.

jamaalstar21 wrote:

Texas Chuck wrote:I mean if I have Rudy Gobert or Ben Wallace, I'm not looking at them to be my perimeter stopper....

And anyone who thinks that Ben Wallace wouldn't get dragged into a billion PNR's if he played during Gobert's era is fooling themselves. And they are fooling themselves further if they think Wallace is shutting down Steph or Kawhi out at teh 3-pt line with a live dribble.

There weren't the same strategies for pulling a rim protector out of drop (I know it wasn't called drop back then, but whatever we called that kind of committed paint protection). Ben did look incredibly twitchy, slithery, and proactive on the rare occasion he ended up switching. So I get why some people (myself included) give him the benefit of the doubt that he'd be excellent. Those hands, the ones that made him one of the worst offensive players of all-time, were the opposite on defense as he was extremely disruptive and could bust out some kawhi like cobra strikes at the ball. He more commonly used this ability to poke away the ball on entry passes, but I saw it on many occasions on the perimeter too. Just a very disruptive player with his reflexes. Combine that with his uncanny ability to get above jump shooters with those teleportation hops, and I'd say we saw little glimpses of a total perimeter skill set.

Now Ben Wallace under Larry Brown (and next to Rasheed) would do a ton of hedging. Ben was incredibly fast (and again: proactive) getting out on top of the screen and then recovering back into the paint (quite often for some highlight blocks). Ben rotated like nobody's business in this kind of action. Switching on the Kobe, forcing a pass, and he's already back in the paint fronting Shaq before the next pass can happen.

The Pistons would even put him at the top of a full court press sometimes.

Ben though, (unlike Rudy) played in pretty perfect defensive situations for his prime. Those kind of free lancing moves worked better because he was doing them in between the shutdown defenses of Rasheed and Tayshaun Prince (instead of Bojan Bogdanovic and Donovan Mitchell).

I have Ben up there with Hakeem and KG as one of the most mobile bigs ever.

I'm not trying to say Wallace wasn't a great defender. Obviously he was.

I'm not trying to say he didn't have some mobility. He did. I'm less bullish than you on how well he would immediately translate to teams hunting him in the PNR, but he'd clearly be one of the best defenders in the league today.

But my issue remains, what made him a great defender was not any play out on the perimeter. And if he is being misused like KG in Minnesota, you would be getting diminished returns.

Maybe he is Draymond in this era, but I'd not assume that. I have Draymond as a 1 of 1. And of course I disagree with this whole Gobert gets played off the court in the playoffs narrative which is just silly. Ask any Jazz fan on this board over the past few seasons and they've been desperate to add perimeter players. There is a price to pay for so much offensive skill and asking Rudy to just make that work defensively. He doesn't have Sheed and Billups and Prince and Hunter.