Devin Booker vs Ray Allen

[parsnips33]

Prime vs Prime (obviously) - who you taking?

[Mr B]

Booker pretty easy if it’s my choice. Booker is bigger, and plays better defense. Allen is the superior shooter but the difference isn’t that great. Not enough to offset the other things Booker is better at.

[No-more-rings]

Booker is a good player, but Allen seems like the clear choice here. Don't know where this idea is coming from that Booker is a good defender. His team is +5 drtg worse with him on the court this year, and +4.6 last year. If we take that to mean much, he's not only a bad defender but a really bad one.

[Ambrose]

Booker is only 25 so he has plenty of time to get there but for now I'd take Ray Allen comfortably.

[falcolombardi]

Booker pretty easy if it’s my choice. Booker is bigger, and plays better defense. Allen is the superior shooter but the difference isn’t that great. Not enough to offset the other things Booker is better at.

ray allen 2001-2007: 32.4 pts/100, 90% ft shooting, 40% 3 pt shooting at 10 attempts, 42% 16-23 feet, 44% 10-16 feet

Devin booker 2020-2022: 36.8 pts/100, 89% ft shooting, 36% 3 pt shooting at 8.2 attempts, 47% 16-23 feet, 47% 10-16 feet

seems like ray allen is clearly the better 3 point shooter but booker is better at midrange

[dans1230]

Ray was an adequate defender during his prime, and a better shooter. Booker who is seemingly in his prime right now is better at everything else, overall scorer, ball distributer, and has shown the ability to be the primary scorer on a championship caliber team. The difference between the 2 aside from the career length are the rings Ray has. The impact of a championship ring on ones career is the difference between a very good player and a hall of fame player.
Look at a comp of Kris Middleton and Klay Thompson. Assuming they both are affective players the next few years and Kris never wins a ring, Klay will probably be a hall of famer yet an argument can be made that Middleton is a better player. If Middleton can get a ring while being a primary player on the team he is a lock for the hall, no ring and i dont think he stands a chance.

[Jaivl]

Clearly Ray for now. TBH I have never thought of Booker as a top 15 guy.

Ray was an adequate defender during his prime, and a better shooter. Booker who is seemingly in his prime right now is better at everything else, overall scorer, ball distributer, and has shown the ability to be the primary scorer on a championship caliber team. The difference between the 2 aside from the career length are the rings Ray has. The impact of a championship ring on ones career is the difference between a very good player and a hall of fame player.
Look at a comp of Kris Middleton and Klay Thompson. Assuming they both are affective players the next few years and Kris never wins a ring, Klay will probably be a hall of famer yet an argument can be made that Middleton is a better player. If Middleton can get a ring while being a primary player on the team he is a lock for the hall, no ring and i dont think he stands a chance.

I mean, for now Ray has scaled much better in the playoffs than Booker in their respective deep runs, and Middleton DOES have a ring while being in a tougher offensive role than Klay. Weird post.

[No-more-rings]

Booker is about to end his 7th season. Why are people acting like he has some whole other level to go to? Ray by that same point already had arguably his peak and certainly best playoff run in 2001.

Also what is this talk about size difference? They are the listed as the same height and weight, maybe Booker is a little heavier at this point i don't know but it's not a major factor. He can still get better, but if it's clearly Ray now it seems unlikely that's going to change.

[70sFan]

Maybe I am missing something, but what's the case for Booker?

[eminence]

I'd go slightly towards Ray, though I think Booker has continued to improve and at this point it's not a crazy comparison.

Devin Booker isn't any bigger than Ray Allen though.

[Prokorov]

Booker pretty easy if it’s my choice. Booker is bigger, and plays better defense. Allen is the superior shooter but the difference isn’t that great. Not enough to offset the other things Booker is better at.

Allen was outstanding on both ends and is labelled a shooter because of his late career role playing but in his prime he could do it all. Allen at his peak was putting up similar number on similar efficiency with better defense. If you put Allen in Booker's era he is probably taking 3-4 more 3PA per game increase his PPG and TS%. like wise booker is probably taking less threes and more midrange in Allens era. its not a huge swing but enough to matter.

[Maverick41]

As a #1 option, I would take Booker as he can create his own shot at an elite level and came pretty darn close to winning a chip as one already. As a #2 option I take Ray as he was better off the ball, a better shooter and arguably better defender.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Ray Allen would be my bet.

From the 99-01 playoffs, Ray Allen averaged an Inflation Adjusted 26 pts per 75 possessions on a rTS% of 9.9%. Per Box-creation he created about 7.5 shots per 100 possessions for teammates. His team had a 6.4 rORTG.

To show this streak isn't necessarily a fluke, the next time he reached the PS was in 05. Yet his numbers still look strikingly similar and arguably even better if we look at the 3 year PS span of 2000, 2001, and 2005 playoffs combined. He is averaging an Inflation Adjusted 27.1 pts per 75 possessions on a rTS% of 9.2%. Per Box-creation he created about 7.7 shots per 100 possessions for teammates. His team had a 7.4 rORTG.

Ray Allen seemingly was a playoff type of guy his true prime, due to his off-ball movement and him being an underrated athlete who could attack closeouts and was decent playmaker. It is also noteworthy that we probably missed seeing Ray Allen in the PS for a decent chunk of his prime as from 02-04 he was not there and then we didn't see him again until 08. Yet his 05 performance showed that he was still very much the same guy and likely improved from 99-01.

It is early for Booker, but his RS performances have not matched Allen's PS play and his single PS run last year certainly doesn't compare. And Allen's PS offenses were consistently terrific, and championship level if we just take the offensive ratings at face value.

Devin Booker last playoffs was at an Inflation Adjusted 25.7 pts per 75 (rTS% of -0.8%). He created about 8.5 shots per 100 possessions. When you consider that more shots are created today in the present than ever before, I think Booker and Allen5are comparable playmakers. It should also be added that some might argue that CP3 not him was the most valuable offensive and overall player on his team and therefore Allen had a tougher task.

I don't think I have an issue with saying Booker is a better defender than Allen (he's a bit taller and longer, with a sturdier frame), but honestly I don't think that is enough to really sway things when Allen gives you more off-ball prowess due to his outlier shooting, along with being a better scorer at that.

All in all, the value metrics tell a similar story:

00-05 PS Ray Allen
3 year Backpicks BPM-5.5 (5.7 OBPM)
3-year AuPM/g-5.3
3-year On/Off-18.8

99-01 PS Ray Allen
3-year Backpicks BPM-5.8 (5.5 OBPM)
3-year AuPM/g-7
3-year On/Off-28.4 (HIGHEST IN HISTORY on record for people who have played at least 140 minutes in a 3 year PS span. Allen played 1074 minutes in this sample).

2021 PS Devin Booker
PS Backpicks BPM-2.7 (2.1 OBPM)
AuPM/g-2
On/Off-10.6 (Single PS on/off is kind of wonky)

I think Ray Allen's shot selection really helps him here. From just eyeing it, it seems as if Allen got to the rim more. He also didn't seem to settle to the same degree for some of the tough midrange jumpers that Booker did and I think this aided his efficiency. He was more dangerous without the ball, because of the threat he was from distance, and therefore I really do favor him.

[Hook_Em]

Booker is about to end his 7th season. Why are people acting like he has some whole other level to go to? Ray by that same point already had arguably his peak and certainly best playoff run in 2001.

Also what is this talk about size difference? They are the listed as the same height and weight, maybe Booker is a little heavier at this point i don't know but it's not a major factor. He can still get better, but if it's clearly Ray now it seems unlikely that's going to change.

Booker’s best year statistically was the season prior to CP3 joining Phoenix. Based at the rate he was going he’d probably be a scoring title threat on a comfortable playoff team if Paul didn’t go to the Suns. It was obviously a great move for the Suns and Booker but he’s been the best player on the best team (winning %) since Paul’s injury. That’s probably a closer version to his peak.

And in game 1 of the WCF vs the Clippers with Paul out with Covid the Suns won and Booker had a 40/13/12 game. Beverly broke his nose the next game.

[darmani]

Booker is a good player, but Allen seems like the clear choice here. Don't know where this idea is coming from that Booker is a good defender. His team is +5 drtg worse with him on the court this year, and +4.6 last year. If we take that to mean much, he's not only a bad defender but a really bad one.

That's a terrible way to evaluate defense. Mikal Bridges has the worst on/off DefRtg on the Suns and he's a top-5 defender in the league. Booker is a good defender.

[Statlanta]

Prime vs. Prime Ray Allen.

However I'd take current Devin Booker over many Milwaukee and Boston versions of Ray Allen.

[No-more-rings]

Booker is a good player, but Allen seems like the clear choice here. Don't know where this idea is coming from that Booker is a good defender. His team is +5 drtg worse with him on the court this year, and +4.6 last year. If we take that to mean much, he's not only a bad defender but a really bad one.

That's a terrible way to evaluate defense. Mikal Bridges has the worst on/off DefRtg on the Suns and he's a top-5 defender in the league. Booker is a good defender.

It's imperfect like anything else, and can sometimes paint misleading results depending on lineups, but it's not terrible. This isn't an isolated instance, it's been a trend his whole career. Every single year of his career, his team has been better on defense without him, many of those years by a good bit.

2016: +3.5
2017: +3.1
2018: +2.2
2019: +3.8
2020: +7.2
2021: +4.6
2022: +5.0

This is not the track record of someone who's anything but a negative defender.

Can you provide evidence that he's anything but that?