Best offensive peak: Jokic vs kareem vs shaq

[falcolombardi]

based on impact in their own eras, who was the best offensive big ?

[70sFan]

Wait for playoffs.

[Jaivl]

Jokic quite clearly IMO.

[70sFan]

As I said, with Jokic I'd prefer to wait for bigger playoffs sample, but he already has very credible argument to be called the best offensive center ever.

I don't get Shaq's love over Kareem though. Shaq has one significant advantage over Jabbar - he could create a lot of easy points through his offensive rebounding and off-ball deep catches/lobs. I don't think it's enough to overcome significant gap Kareem has as a creator, isolation scorer and shooter. To me 1977 Kareem was better than any version of Shaq on offensive end, he was less reliant on his teammates and he didn't dominate the ball either.

[feyki]

Last year Jokic was probably bettter than this year, offensively. He has been the OGOAT as a center.

[No-more-rings]

I don't get Shaq's love over Kareem though. Shaq has one significant advantage over Jabbar - he could create a lot of easy points through his offensive rebounding and off-ball deep catches/lobs. I don't think it's enough to overcome significant gap Kareem has as a creator, isolation scorer and shooter.

Shaq peaked at 17.4 fta per 100 poss, Kareem at 8.7. That's a real advantage that you seem to like to ignore between the 2. He wasn't good at making them but the fouls he put on opponents was obviously a big deal.

To me 1977 Kareem was better than any version of Shaq on offensive end, he was less reliant on his teammates and he didn't dominate the ball either.

Shaq dominating the ball is supposed to be a bad thing? It's literally what made him so dangerous.

[No-more-rings]

Going Shaq for now. I'm not convinced yet that he's shown Shaq level offensive impact in the playoffs. The 2000 and 2001 Lakers both had the top ortg in the playoffs, and Shaq didn't have a poor series in all that.

If we're talking just regular season, then sure I guess so. Don't know why people are always so eager to crown players based on regular season play. Curry's 2016 regular season was considered goat level when it was happening, but after the playoffs most didn't have it as a top 10 peak even. People never seem to learn.

[Jaivl]

Curry's 2016 regular season was absolutely GOAT level... and then he got injured.

Y'all were "wait for the playoffs" twice already with Jokic and he overperformed both times. And he's better now. Wait for what exactly? We are not talking about an unproven guy that has not played postseason basketball ever. Jokic has peaked as the best offensive center ever for a big enough sample.

Is his 2022 is the best offensive C season ever? Well, that's another question that we can't answer until his season actually ends, of course.

[Peregrine01]

Going Shaq for now. I'm not convinced yet that he's shown Shaq level offensive impact in the playoffs. The 2000 and 2001 Lakers both had the top ortg in the playoffs, and Shaq didn't have a poor series in all that.

It's reasonable to think that Kobe was the better offensive player for much of the 2001 playoffs, especially against the West teams.

It's gonna be hard to judge Jokic because his team just isn't that good, even with MPJ and Murray. I absolutely think that a championship level team can be built around Jokic but there probably needs to be a wholesale change in the Nuggets roster to do so.

[No-more-rings]

Curry's 2016 regular season was absolutely GOAT level... and then he got injured.

Y'all were "wait for the playoffs" twice already with Jokic and he overperformed both times. And he's better now. Wait for what exactly? We are not talking about an unproven guy that has not played postseason basketball ever. Jokic has peaked as the best offensive center ever for a big enough sample.

Is his 2022 is the best offensive C season ever? Well, that's another question that we can't answer until his season actually ends, of course.

I wouldn't say Jokic over-performed the past 2 postseasons. He wasn't great against Phoenix or LA to end those postseasons imo. Was he garbage? No. Was he Shaq level? Also no.

[jasonxxx102]

I'm sure you can find all kinds of ways to frame this discussion to fit "your guy" but Jokic is the most offensively well-rounded and dangerous C of all time and I don't even think it's particularly close.

Shaq was the most physically dominant but he was limited.

[Prokorov]

Kareem
Shaq

Jokic not even remotely close to being on the list with those 2.

[70sFan]

I don't get Shaq's love over Kareem though. Shaq has one significant advantage over Jabbar - he could create a lot of easy points through his offensive rebounding and off-ball deep catches/lobs. I don't think it's enough to overcome significant gap Kareem has as a creator, isolation scorer and shooter.

Shaq peaked at 17.4 fta per 100 poss, Kareem at 8.7. That's a real advantage that you seem to like to ignore between the 2. He wasn't good at making them but the fouls he put on opponents was obviously a big deal.

To me 1977 Kareem was better than any version of Shaq on offensive end, he was less reliant on his teammates and he didn't dominate the ball either.

Shaq dominating the ball is supposed to be a bad thing? It's literally what made him so dangerous.

Yeah, I forgot to mention his ability to draw fouls - good to see you mentioning that. Shaq drawing so many fouls is a double sword though, as he couldn't hit FTs on consistent basis.

I think you misunderstood my second point - Shaq wasn't really a ball dominant player either.

[70sFan]

Y'all were "wait for the playoffs" twice already with Jokic and he overperformed both times. And he's better now. Wait for what exactly? We are not talking about an unproven guy that has not played postseason basketball ever. Jokic has peaked as the best offensive center ever for a big enough sample.

I don't think Jokic overperformed in any of his postseason runs. He was amazing vs 2020 Jazz, very good vs 2020 Clippers, decent enough vs 2020 Lakers and not that good vs 2021 Suns. I don't think it's the level above what peak Shaq and peak Kareem showed us.

[dygaction]

As I said, with Jokic I'd prefer to wait for bigger playoffs sample, but he already has very credible argument to be called the best offensive center ever.

I don't get Shaq's love over Kareem though. Shaq has one significant advantage over Jabbar - he could create a lot of easy points through his offensive rebounding and off-ball deep catches/lobs. I don't think it's enough to overcome significant gap Kareem has as a creator, isolation scorer and shooter. To me 1977 Kareem was better than any version of Shaq on offensive end, he was less reliant on his teammates and he didn't dominate the ball either.

If you wait Jokic's bigger playoffs sample, should you use 1977 Kareem? Kareem averaged a lot of points but the sample size was really too small as he was swept in the second round.

[70sFan]

As I said, with Jokic I'd prefer to wait for bigger playoffs sample, but he already has very credible argument to be called the best offensive center ever.

I don't get Shaq's love over Kareem though. Shaq has one significant advantage over Jabbar - he could create a lot of easy points through his offensive rebounding and off-ball deep catches/lobs. I don't think it's enough to overcome significant gap Kareem has as a creator, isolation scorer and shooter. To me 1977 Kareem was better than any version of Shaq on offensive end, he was less reliant on his teammates and he didn't dominate the ball either.

If you wait Jokic's bigger playoffs sample, should you use 1977 Kareem? Kareem averaged a lot of points but the sample size was really too small as he was swept in the second round.

I use 1970-80 sample for Kareem, I think it's enough.

[dygaction]

As I said, with Jokic I'd prefer to wait for bigger playoffs sample, but he already has very credible argument to be called the best offensive center ever.

I don't get Shaq's love over Kareem though. Shaq has one significant advantage over Jabbar - he could create a lot of easy points through his offensive rebounding and off-ball deep catches/lobs. I don't think it's enough to overcome significant gap Kareem has as a creator, isolation scorer and shooter. To me 1977 Kareem was better than any version of Shaq on offensive end, he was less reliant on his teammates and he didn't dominate the ball either.

If you wait Jokic's bigger playoffs sample, should you use 1977 Kareem? Kareem averaged a lot of points but the sample size was really too small as he was swept in the second round.

I use 1970-80 sample for Kareem, I think it's enough.

Just saying, 1977 is not a good year to compare with peak Shaq on offense.

[70sFan]

If you wait Jokic's bigger playoffs sample, should you use 1977 Kareem? Kareem averaged a lot of points but the sample size was really too small as he was swept in the second round.

I use 1970-80 sample for Kareem, I think it's enough.

Just saying, 1977 is not a good year to compare with peak Shaq on offense.

I disagree. Kareem played two full series against strong competition and he didn't have a single bad offensive game. When you combine that with Kareem's postseason history, you can say pretty clearly that it wasn't a fluke.

[ty 4191]

Y'all were "wait for the playoffs" twice already with Jokic and he overperformed both times. And he's better now. Wait for what exactly? We are not talking about an unproven guy that has not played postseason basketball ever. Jokic has peaked as the best offensive center ever for a big enough sample.

I don't think Jokic overperformed in any of his postseason runs. He was amazing vs 2020 Jazz, very good vs 2020 Clippers, decent enough vs 2020 Lakers and not that good vs 2021 Suns. I don't think it's the level above what peak Shaq and peak Kareem showed us.

Wait for what, exactly? Totally agree with Jaivl. This tired old "Jokic is totally unproven in the playoffs" argument has to go away.

How many players have averaged 25.9/11.3/6.4 with 40+ playoff games, career? Nobody else has even averaged 25/10/5 for a career in the playoffs.

Bird is the only player even close to his orbit overall in the playoffs, averaging 23.8/10.3/6.5. But even adjusted for era, Bird isn't close to what Jokic has averaged, in terms of per game production.

Also, Jokic has done it with .512/.406/.840 (career) splits in the playoffs, also. Ridiculous efficiency on top of his volume production.

[ty 4191]

As I said, with Jokic I'd prefer to wait for bigger playoffs sample, but he already has very credible argument to be called the best offensive center ever.

This is fair. I'd personally say he's the greatest offensive center ever, at this point. Overall.

Just curious, how many playoff minutes or games would constitute a significant playoffs sample, to you?

I don't get Shaq's love over Kareem though. Shaq has one significant advantage over Jabbar - he could create a lot of easy points through his offensive rebounding and off-ball deep catches/lobs. I don't think it's enough to overcome significant gap Kareem has as a creator, isolation scorer and shooter. To me 1977 Kareem was better than any version of Shaq on offensive end, he was less reliant on his teammates and he didn't dominate the ball either.

Who faced better defenses in the playoffs? Shaq, or KAJ?