RealGM

Hi!

After a few rough discussions about Wilt recently, I decided that we should start evaluating oldschool players more with what they actually show on the court instead of focusing too much on narratives and assumptions. I know it's hard because of extremely limited material available, but I'm here to help you as much as I am capable of

Please let me know which season would you like to start with. I can say that I have the largest collection of his games from 1964, 1965, 1967, 1970 and 1972. I could share videos from other seasons as well.

Please let me know what you think. Would you like to start this series with other oldschool players by the way?

Interesting.

Sent from my Nokia 5.1 Plus using RealGM mobile app

Well, if it was up to me it would be best to start at the beginning, 1964 or earlier

70sFan wrote:After a few rough discussions about Wilt recently

And here I was thinking we were having a civilized discussion

Mazter wrote:Well, if it was up to me it would be best to start at the beginning, 1964 or earlier

70sFan wrote:After a few rough discussions about Wilt recently

And here I was thinking we were having a civilized discussion

We can start with 1964

I got frustrated by other people in the other discussion actually.

70sfan,

How much total footage do you have of Wilt? Like in terms of total games, minutes, etc.?

Mazter wrote:Well, if it was up to me it would be best to start at the beginning, 1964 or earlier

Here you go:

23.02.1964 vs Lakers



I will post more 1964 videos after people interested will watch this one.

colts18 wrote:70sfan,

How much total footage do you have of Wilt? Like in terms of total games, minutes, etc.?

Here is the list of Wilt games I have up to 1969/70 season:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FpjoOVzt0L0F0WIhovWtP6hfygewhLt09hd_YmNLG8A/edit?usp=sharing

insane lists !!!

CumberlandPosey wrote::o
insane lists !!!

It's way too little for my taste... I have been collecting these games for 3 years and it cost a lot of money to get them all. Huge thanks to my patrons that are willing to help me financially.

70sFan wrote:

Mazter wrote:Well, if it was up to me it would be best to start at the beginning, 1964 or earlier

Here you go:

23.02.1964 vs Lakers

Watch on YouTube

I will post more 1964 videos after people interested will watch this one.

some notable stuff

0:20-0:35 wilt can do some good pass fakes with his ball grip, i notice he can spin unopposed by the defender thanks to his size and strenght

1:00 wilt goes for a fade away close to the rim against a single defender rather than a power move inside (a consequence of tighter reffing against offense post players initiating contact? relevant since this is one of wilt nost common criticisms)

1:10 smooth move to spin away off the defender and catching an alley oop, good off ball movement (a common criticism against wilt)

1:38 good quick pass, wilt catches the ball in the post and makes a instant pass to the cutter, good pass

3:50 wilt stays stationary in the left block which is the strong side in this play arguably affecting his team play, another common criticism of wilt although i am simpathetic to wilt since well he kinda had to run a ton for a near full 110 pace game

4:50 regular wilt contest against a jumpshot. just want to mention how insane a long 7'1 with a good jump contesting your jumpshot is

5:00 wilt with a smooth post bank shot off his left shoulder, i dunno what how his percentages were, but it looked smooth

5:20 wilt is very active here, leaves the paint to follow his man and deflects a pass

5:50 feels like he could have defended the fast break a bit better here as he doesnt contest the shot (although his presence by running to defend clearly affects the attackers who try to avoid him, good effort)

6:40 a seemingly typical wilt offensive possesion, catches the entry pass does a little fake pass to the cutter looking for the pass first, when not available he noves into his famous/infamous (since it was supposedly not that efficient) finger roll he is often criticized for using instead of a mpre physical move

7:00 wilt tries the same shot as minute 5:00, this time is a bad Miss

7:50 same shot but another miss, i thinl i have counted 3/8 efficiency in post jumpers overall in the video

9:00 wilt steps a bit off the paint for a good contest, he is clearly not a "stay in the paint all game long" defender like shaq, he looks nimble for a 7 footer although he doesnt leave too far from the paint either (not that it was needed at his era)

9:30 wilt defending a long jumper (seems like a 20 footer) doesnt contest it, probably worried about a blow by (first jumper i see will not contest)

12:00 at the end of the video i think we see the first but probably not only one, offensive rebound amd put back

the center boxing out wilt looks outmatched physically

In this short clip, Wilt shot 6/14 from the field. It wasn't a good shooting night for Wilt and he supposedly struggled with some minor injury.

My observations:

1. Defense

2:32 - he got bitten on a pump fake by Rudy LaRusso
4:40 - West lost Attles on a screen, but Wilt reacted nicely and when Jerry faked Al, Wilt needed only one step to contest his shot. Look how much space he could cover by these giant steps
5:18 - good activity from Wilt, he deflected the pass on perimeter. Warriors also did a nice job rotating on next guys, which allowed Wilt to come back inside and contest the shot
6:55 - just to take a note, Wilt came out of the paint to defend Krebs so it's not true that he always hated chasing down shooting bigs
9:00 - we don't have full play here, but it seems that Wilt switched onto Baylor and when West run P&R, he helped his teammates inside and West found Baylor on the outside. I'd say it was a decent effort from Wilt.
12:05 - touch foul called on Wilt

2. Offense

0:20 - typical play Warriors played under Hannum, hand-off assist from the post
0:28 - this time Wilt faked hand-off and scored his signature finger roll
0:58 - Wilt established deep position in transition, but instead going strong through the basket, he missed a fadeaway
1:08 - game winning shot, pay attention how Barnett decided to left Rodgers completely wide open to keep the ball away from Wilt. Then Wilt made a quick, Shaq-esque spin without the ball to make the game winning shot
1:23 - we don't see much, other than missed fadeaway
1:40 - another hand-off from the post, this time West blocked Attles layup
4:55 - smooth turnaround fadeaway made off the catch
5:31 - very brief clip on Wilt missing finger roll
6:38 - this time, we can see Wilt making the finger roll, pay attention how Wilt actually attacked Kreb's space with outstretched hand. It wasn't easy move to perform but it wasn't easy to defend either
7:05 - quick fadeaway missed on a catch, very bad miss this time
7:51 - another fadeaway missed, you can see that Wilt often took quick catch and shoot moves
8:08 - brief clip showing Wilt missing another fadeaway
8:38 - another fadeaway missed, bad shooting selection, I wonder if it was true that his injury hampered him here
9:33 - horrible miss on a fadeaway, he didn't try to back Krebs down
9:57 - look at Baylor, he doubled Wilt off-ball, comfortably leaving Hightower open
10:13 - reaching foul drawn in the post
12:13 - this time he made fadeaway
12:32 - dunk made after offensive rebound

I will finish for now, hope to see more notes from others

70sFan wrote:

Mazter wrote:Well, if it was up to me it would be best to start at the beginning, 1964 or earlier

Here you go:

23.02.1964 vs Lakers

Watch on YouTube

I will post more 1964 videos after people interested will watch this one.

It's kinda refreshing to see a clip that's not just highlights. It makes the players look more...human. This was a season where Wilt averaged 36.9/22.3 with a 53.7 TS%. This game wasn't a very efficient game for Wilt. He still did put 37/25 but was just 16-for-40 from the field.

In the clip he showed he was capable of hitting a 10-15 foot fadeaway but he also missed some (with a brick at the 9.34 mark). I still think he would be at a 35-40% mark from fadeaways, which was good enough at the time. He also had a nice finger roll here and there and some nice hand offs to cutting teammates. Defensively I don't really know. His presence around the rim was undeniable of course and altered some plays. But I barely saw him leave the (low) post. He did play against 6-8 230 pounds Krebs, who was on his last legs, averaged a career low 5/4 that season and retired the summer after. Krebs did have a season high 24 points that game though.

Also a "funny" moment at 1:08, Rodgers stops his dribble at the top of the key and his defender just stands there at the FT line. That's what's today's tracking would consider a wide open jump shot at 20 foot (47.5% today). The disrespect was real in the 60's.

Mazter wrote:In the clip he showed he was capable of hitting a 10-15 foot fadeaway but he also missed some (with a brick at the 9.34 mark). I still think he would be at a 35-40% mark from fadeaways, which was good enough at the time.

I don't have representative sample yet (still tracking), but for now I've tracked his 59 fadeaway attempts and Wilt made 27 of them. That gives us the average of 46%, but as I said my sample isn't representative unfortunately. If we make a linear adjustment of his FG% (which is far from perfect), that would still make Chamberlain score fadeaways around 40% clip. That's good, far better than Shaq and only slightly worse than Hakeem Olajuwon.

70sFan wrote:

Mazter wrote:Well, if it was up to me it would be best to start at the beginning, 1964 or earlier

Here you go:

23.02.1964 vs Lakers

Watch on YouTube

I will post more 1964 videos after people interested will watch this one.

Thats some cool footage, thanks for sharing.

couple quick takeaways watching that:

-Wilt shot quite a few bank shots, although a few of them were way off target lol

-didn't know he shot ft's underhanded, was basically Shaq level when it comes to ft %

-Jerry west looks like he was ahead of his time especially when it comes to his jumper compared to everyone else.

-A lot of contested shots and really weird/ugly looking jumpers

-I think I saw only one instance were they doubled wilt

-most of everyones shots are either in the paint or just outside it

-No one seemed to excel at creating open looks for themselves back then

-West looked like he utilized the pump fake pretty well

Bruh Man wrote:-I think I saw only one instance were they doubled wilt

He was doubled a few times without the ball.

70sFan wrote:Hi!

After a few rough discussions about Wilt recently, I decided that we should start evaluating oldschool players more with what they actually show on the court instead of focusing too much on narratives and assumptions. I know it's hard because of extremely limited material available, but I'm here to help you as much as I am capable of

Please let me know which season would you like to start with. I can say that I have the largest collection of his games from 1964, 1965, 1967, 1970 and 1972. I could share videos from other seasons as well.

Please let me know what you think. Would you like to start this series with other oldschool players by the way?

I'm interested, but busy right now so not sure how much I could commit to at present.

Doctor MJ wrote:

70sFan wrote:Hi!

After a few rough discussions about Wilt recently, I decided that we should start evaluating oldschool players more with what they actually show on the court instead of focusing too much on narratives and assumptions. I know it's hard because of extremely limited material available, but I'm here to help you as much as I am capable of

Please let me know which season would you like to start with. I can say that I have the largest collection of his games from 1964, 1965, 1967, 1970 and 1972. I could share videos from other seasons as well.

Please let me know what you think. Would you like to start this series with other oldschool players by the way?

I'm interested, but busy right now so not sure how much I could commit to at present.

Don't worry, it will be available as long as my channel won't crash. I'm interested in your opinion a lot to be honest

the thinl that stood out to me was how wilt was able to do many of the thinghs associated with shaq he is criticized for not playing mpre like

he is huge but incredibly mobile and athletic with a great jump making him able to maneuver off ball into easy oops (he did that in the video with a great athletic spin move off ball yo get past his man)

he was a incredible offensive rebounder based on data we have, and he was a efficiency outlier despite bad free throw shooting and apparently so-so midrange skill meaning he has to have been a finishing Monster

he even clearly can run in the fast break really well

and he looks like a willing passer if one a bit too happy to settled into moderate efficiency jumpers

so what was it that stopped him from doing more od those "shaq thinghs"?

my theory is a combination of

stamina (playing 45-48 mins in a super high pace game full of running while spending e nergy on defense where shaq preserved energy)

reffing: we know offensive phisicality by post players was strictly reffed

maybe it was a kernel of truth that he wanted to prove he was a skills player amd not just a "brute": i would be wary tho, since this may be just a easy explanation people came up with to bring down wilt

Game 2 of 1964 Finals



Defense

0:24 - beating Russell on the glass and quick start of the fastbreak
3:53 - decent contest on Heinsohn perimeter hook attempt
5:24 - lack of boxout, allowing for offensive rebound
5:44 - good hustle in transition

Offense

0:50 - fadeaway missed from the left block
1:28 - didn't pass to open shooter this time, but he made a nice finger roll from the right block
2:04 - over the back foul on tip attempt
3:05 - off-ball double, stealing the entry pass to Wilt

This one is short, but I will post more tomorrow.

falcolombardi wrote:stamina (playing 45-48 mins in a super high pace game full of running while spending energy on defense where shaq preserved energy)

"Full of running" is not how I would call it in this footage, not for the centers at least. Standing in the post, and switching from post to post is what Wilt is mostly doing on both ends. And high pace simply means you have to walk/jog/run accross court more often, but says nothing about the speed.

Maybe some future footage could change my mind, but if it's about "super human stamina" I'm not utterly impressed by it based on these footage.