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I've been thinking about Barry's all-time ranking and I'm wondering - do we underrate Rick's offensive impact?

He's one of the greatest off-ball players ever. His shooting was certainly elite. He had the size and athleticism to compete against any type of defense. On top of that, his passing ability is vastly underrated, at times he was Bird-esque with his touch passes and manipulation.

Why isn't Rick talked more among the greatest offensive players? Is it because of his only decent scoring efficiency?

70sFan wrote:I've been thinking about Barry's all-time ranking and I'm wondering - do we underrate Rick's offensive impact?

He's one of the greatest off-ball players ever. His shooting was certainly elite. He had the size and athleticism to compete against any type of defense. On top of that, his passing ability is vastly underrated, at times he was Bird-esque with his touch passes and manipulation.

Why isn't Rick talked more among the greatest offensive players? Is it because of his only decent scoring efficiency?

Probably


I suppose people see him as an obsolete version of Larry Bird

HeartBreakKid wrote:

70sFan wrote:I've been thinking about Barry's all-time ranking and I'm wondering - do we underrate Rick's offensive impact?

He's one of the greatest off-ball players ever. His shooting was certainly elite. He had the size and athleticism to compete against any type of defense. On top of that, his passing ability is vastly underrated, at times he was Bird-esque with his touch passes and manipulation.

Why isn't Rick talked more among the greatest offensive players? Is it because of his only decent scoring efficiency?

Probably


I suppose people see him as an obsolete version of Larry Bird

Rick had some strengths that Bird couldn't bring to the table though. He was more athletic and his game was more perimeter oriented. His scoring efficiency wasn't that much worse either - 105 vs 104 in TS+ career-wise.

Also, no one liked Rick Barry much, not his teammates nor his opponents nor the press. That sometimes matters in terms of coverage.

He spent a large amount of his prime outside the NBA as well.

For SFs I have him right behind John Havlicek at #7. That aheads ahead of guys like Scottie Pippen,Kawhi Leonard, Dominique, Dantley, English, Carmelo, Arizin, Pierce.

He is one that would fit in any era. He was skilled on both ends and tough. He was slightly below Bird but as said, he could do some things Bird couldn't.

I'd say he is underrated on both ends. I think for the old RPOY threads, I once described Barry's offense stylistically as a combination of Bird and Kobe with Ray Allen's quick shot release. Not saying he was as good a passer as Bird and as good a scorer as Kobe, but stylistically, that is what he looked like. He was a monster on offense. I'd take Barry's offense over Hondo, Pippen, Melo, and any of the 80's scoring SFs except MAYBE Erving and Bird.

Even on defense, he wasn't bad. Great hands and overall anticipation. Occasionally gambled on the passing lanes like everybody who leads the league in steals at some point. Good rebounder. Solid contributor to some excellent defensive teams.

penbeast0 wrote:Also, no one liked Rick Barry much, not his teammates nor his opponents nor the press. That sometimes matters in terms of coverage.

Yes, wasn't it the reason Kareem always so low in the all time lists?

He was definitely an offensive superstar. He was not on the OPOY level. Probably in the top 50 offensive impacts of all time.

feyki wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:Also, no one liked Rick Barry much, not his teammates nor his opponents nor the press. That sometimes matters in terms of coverage.

Yes, wasn't it the reason Kareem always so low in the all time lists?

He was definitely an offensive superstar. He was not on the OPOY level. Probably in the top 50 offensive impacts of all time.

Can't imagine a list of 50 players with higher offensive impact than Barry, but I'd be happy to see such a list.

I also remember that you called Dan Issel OPOY level. Does it mean that you think Dan Issel was better offensive player than Rick Barry?

70sFan wrote:

feyki wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:Also, no one liked Rick Barry much, not his teammates nor his opponents nor the press. That sometimes matters in terms of coverage.

Yes, wasn't it the reason Kareem always so low in the all time lists?

He was definitely an offensive superstar. He was not on the OPOY level. Probably in the top 50 offensive impacts of all time.

Can't imagine a list of 50 players with higher offensive impact than Barry, but I'd be happy to see such a list.

I also remember that you called Dan Issel OPOY level. Does it mean that you think Dan Issel was better offensive player than Rick Barry?

OGOAT:
.

Top Offensive Peaks All time:
.

OPOY:
.

There are 35 players, then it goes to top 50/60 with similar players to Barry in terms of offensive impact.

feyki wrote:

70sFan wrote:

feyki wrote:
Yes, wasn't it the reason Kareem always so low in the all time lists?

He was definitely an offensive superstar. He was not on the OPOY level. Probably in the top 50 offensive impacts of all time.

Can't imagine a list of 50 players with higher offensive impact than Barry, but I'd be happy to see such a list.

I also remember that you called Dan Issel OPOY level. Does it mean that you think Dan Issel was better offensive player than Rick Barry?

OGOAT:

Spoiler:

87/90 Magic, 63/67 Oscar,05/07 Nash,21 Doncic(22?)

.

Top Offensive Peaks All time:

Spoiler:

15/22 Curry(minus 20),17/20 Harden,73 Archibald,21 Jokic(22?),17/18 and 09/10 Lebron,06/07 and 09/11 Dirk,85/88 Bird,92/95 Miller

.

OPOY:

Spoiler:

89/91,93 Barkley,90/93 MJ,00/02 Ray,19/21 Lilliard,55/57 Arizin,56/59 Pettit,02/03 T-Mac,17 IT,58/60 Hagan,71/74,76/78 KAJ, 08/09,11,14/16 CP,14, 16/21 KD,60/62 Baylor,84 AD,69/70 West,99/02 Shaq,50/51 Davies,06/07 Kobe,78/80 Gervin,17 Westbrook, 09/10 Wade, 80/82 Issel,50/54 Mikan,82 Moses

.

There are 35 players, then it goes to top 50/60 with similar players to Barry in terms of offensive impact.

I strongly disagree with some of these names, but thank you for the effort.

Barry's biggest offensive sin was his love of difficult jump shots. He even admitted as much. Which is why his career fg pct. is only around 45%. As one of more athletic forwards for that era, Barry should have gone to the basket a lot more which given his great foul shooting would have meant more points overall.
But Barry was an excellent outside shooter, great clutch player, excellent foul shooter, and good passer. He also moved very well without the ball. He only played one year with a top pg, Guy Rodgers, and would have benefited from that.
His last season in the NBA was also the first season for the three point shot. Barry was a reserve for Houston but still ended up taking the second most three point shots in the league shooting 33%. Doubtless, given more years to play Barry would have improved that percentage.

Johnlac1 wrote:Barry's biggest offensive sin was his love of difficult jump shots. He even admitted as much. Which is why his career fg pct. is only around 45%. As one of more athletic forwards for that era, Barry should have gone to the basket a lot more which given his great foul shooting would have meant more points overall.
But Barry was an excellent outside shooter, great clutch player, excellent foul shooter, and good passer. He also moved very well without the ball. He only played one year with a top pg, Guy Rodgers, and would have benefited from that.
His last season in the NBA was also the first season for the three point shot. Barry was a reserve for Houston but still ended up taking the second most three point shots in the league shooting 33%. Doubtless, given more years to play Barry would have improved that percentage.

On specifics.
Barry shot .277 from 3 in the ABA on a larger sample. Maybe it's heaves, and norms aren't super high, but ...

More to the general idea of his shooting and to all ...
How confident are people on the great outside shooter thing. His FT% is off a wildly different form. His career fg+ is 100, 98 in the NBA. High volume of course. And good TS add by getting to the line some and always making them (though best in the mostly early ABA though also the 60s NBA, latterly more pedestrian). It could just be shot selection. It just seems every white wing or smaller player who was perceived as at some point as legendary was said to be a great shooter, West, Maravich, Barry ...


More generally I think I'm quite low on Barry versus norms here and elsewhere. He's got the points, title halo. I'm just not sure he put together efficient scoring, quality playmaking and decent competition at once. Maybe I'm too low on his D ... there's a fairly large plausible range there I think. Personally (back to overall, mainly composite production), the ABA years ... as well as injuries ... he doesn't put that much space between him and Donnie Freeman in those years and I think that's a name maybe outside people's top 500 or just even knowledge.

He shot about 45.5% in the NBA. Not Allen Iverson bad but not all that special by modern standards. Good that he could pass. In the current game with the floor spread Rick Barry would get more layups and his shooting percentage would be higher than in his time.

But what about the great modern athletes, wouldn't they shut him down? I don't believe in the great modern athletes theory. Rick Barry's shooting would improve more from the modern floor spacing than he would be hurt by slightly faster and slightly bigger modern athletes.

45.5% was fine for a first option straw that stirs the drink type, high volume, defense warping, great passing scorer in 1975 but 45.5% is a bit low for Modern scorers. But in 1975 Rick Barry was not shooting a low percentage for his era.

Maybe if playing in the improved shooting NBA Rick Barry might pass up a couple of his more difficult shots. Rick Barry could shoot 2 less shots per game and still be a volume scorer.

He's easily a top 7 offensive player in my eyes.

KobesScarf wrote:He's easily a top 7 offensive player in my eyes.

Who are rest 6?

The rest of the 75 Warriors are probably the worst team ever 2-6 to ever win the NBA title. They do have decent depth after 6, but a roster of Ray, CJ, Dickey is pretty poor.

He suffers some in rankings as not being popular.
He also suffers in the Iverson effect of being by far the best offensive player who winds up taking a lot of shots.
Also his ABA doesn't help him. He sits out a year, his father-in-law gets out of the league (which is why he jumped), he famously (at the time) objects going to Virginia, and then hurt his first 3 years.
In his one full year, he beats GIlmore and the young Doc in the playoffs. He loses to Indiana, who had 8 pretty solid players, heck it was a better roster 2-6 then the 75 Golden State team.
He winds up with 3 real good playoff runs in his career, but doesn't seem to get enough credit for it.
And in 76 Golden State had a great regular season, but had a meltdown in the playoffs, and some (a lot) of the blame goes to Barry.
You can see the team fell apart, both Gus Williams & Keith/Jamaal Wilkes left the team for the version of free agency.

But Barry was the best passing forward in the league, had a great outside shot, and defensively was similar to Bird in his off the ball defense. He was quicker and got more steals from the weakside than Bird did.