RealGM

Obviously we know that Kareem was an overall scorer was plenty efficient, but I'm wondering if there are any records / estimates of how efficient Kareem's skyhook was. Would it be a shot teams would want Kareem taking at a high volume in today's NBA?

He used it often, could do it with both hands, could do it backing down or out of a faceup move, could do it to 15 feet and won a Finals game at the end using it as a buzzer beater.

Yes, it would be a shot teams would want him taking today, it was the core of his high-volume efficacy.

very

a lot of people who have tried to track him over large samples of footage give him a 50%~ accuracy which is elite for a go to move you can get anytime

11 out of his 20 years Kareem Shot better than TS% 60%
A 40% 3 point shooter is equal to a 60% 2 point shooter.

3 point shooters open up the paint for easy scores by guys who are not even good scorers.
Kareem's gravity opened up the 3 point line shooters but by modern standards the Lakers did not shoot 3s.
Kareem drew more fouls than 3 point shooters do.

Is there a role for Kareem today? Are you nuts, of course Kareem''s skyhook is still valuable just as a 40% three point shooter is still valuable.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:11 out of his 20 years Kareem Shot better than TS% 60%
A 40% 3 point shooter is equal to a 60% 2 point shooter.

3 point shooters open up the paint for easy scores by guys who are not even good scorers.
Kareem's gravity opened up the 3 point line shooters but by modern standards the Lakers did not shoot 3s.
Kareem drew more fouls than 3 point shooters do.

Is there a role for Kareem today? Are you nuts, of course Kareem''s skyhook is still valuable just as a 40% three point shooter is still valuable.

i'm not arguing on a side here, but you appear to be operating under the assumption that every shot kareem took was a skyhook lol. telling me his overall efficiency is pointless - my post states that he was obviously very efficient as an overall scorer. the question was in regards to his skyhook alone. his TS% does not tell me how he shot on skyhooks specifically

no one asked whether there was a role for kareem today, i am not sure why you said that.

your 40% 3P% comparison makes me think that you took kareem's 60% TS% and concluded that he made 60% of his skyhooks. which is.. odd

I tracked 33 1971-79 Kareem games and here are the skyhook stats from this sample:

10.7 ppg, 8.8 FGA, 1.9 FTA on 52.9 FG% and 55,4 TS%

Some observations:

- almost 95% of Kareem skyhook attempts were right handed, but he was highly efficient with his left hand (finishing them at ridiculous 73% rate),
- my sampled games underrate Kareem's efficiency compared to his RS averages (53.7 FG% and 57.1 TS% compared to 55.5 FG% and 58.6 TS%)
- 5 out of 33 games I tracked were against Wilt Chamberlain who did a great job at shutting down skyhooks (Kareem made only 29% of his skyhooks against Wilt in my sample),
- Kareem became more reliant on skyhook during his Lakers career, but his hookshot also became more efficient. In 20 Lakers games I tracked, Jabbar made skyhooks on 56.7 FG% rate.

Any questions?

70sFan wrote:I tracked 33 1971-79 Kareem games and here are the skyhook stats from this sample:

10.7 ppg, 8.8 FGA, 1.9 FTA on 52.9 FG% and 55,4 TS%

Some observations:

- almost 95% of Kareem skyhook attempts were right handed, but he was highly efficient with his left hand (finishing them at ridiculous 73% rate),
- my sampled games underrate Kareem's efficiency compared to his RS averages (53.7 FG% and 57.1 TS% compared to 55.5 FG% and 58.6 TS%)
- 5 out of 33 games I tracked were against Wilt Chamberlain who did a great job at shutting down skyhooks (Kareem made only 29% of his skyhooks against Wilt in my sample),
- Kareem became more reliant on skyhook during his Lakers career, but his hookshot also became more efficient. In 20 Lakers games I tracked, Jabbar made skyhooks on 56.7 FG% rate.

Any questions?

If you were to take a wild guess of Kareem's actual Skyhook field goal percentage from 71-79, what would it be?

70sFan wrote:I tracked 33 1971-79 Kareem games and here are the skyhook stats from this sample:

10.7 ppg, 8.8 FGA, 1.9 FTA on 52.9 FG% and 55,4 TS%

Some observations:

- almost 95% of Kareem skyhook attempts were right handed, but he was highly efficient with his left hand (finishing them at ridiculous 73% rate),
- my sampled games underrate Kareem's efficiency compared to his RS averages (53.7 FG% and 57.1 TS% compared to 55.5 FG% and 58.6 TS%)
- 5 out of 33 games I tracked were against Wilt Chamberlain who did a great job at shutting down skyhooks (Kareem made only 29% of his skyhooks against Wilt in my sample),
- Kareem became more reliant on skyhook during his Lakers career, but his hookshot also became more efficient. In 20 Lakers games I tracked, Jabbar made skyhooks on 56.7 FG% rate.

Any questions?

those percentages are mindblowing tbh

falcolombardi wrote:very

a lot of people who have tried to track him over large samples of footage give him a 50%~ accuracy which is elite for a go to move you can get anytime

Well he shot 56% for his career and a career high of 60%, I have trouble believing his hook shots were only made at a 50% rate.

No-more-rings wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:very

a lot of people who have tried to track him over large samples of footage give him a 50%~ accuracy which is elite for a go to move you can get anytime

Well he shot 56% for his career and a career high of 60%, I have trouble believing his hook shots were only made at a 50% rate.

He used to hook in the half court but he also ran the floor pretty well for a big, got a lot of putbacks and dunks, and had countermoves (including the lefty hoot) and drop steps if they tried to overplay him. Those were higher percentage shots and frequently shook his man altogether for higher percentages though set up by the skyhook. I spent my high school years trying to imitate his game.

No-more-rings wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:very

a lot of people who have tried to track him over large samples of footage give him a 50%~ accuracy which is elite for a go to move you can get anytime

Well he shot 56% for his career and a career high of 60%, I have trouble believing his hook shots were only made at a 50% rate.

Why? They were certainly the hardest shots he took normally. I would expect his career average FG% to be higher than his shooting on hookshots.

McBubbles wrote:

70sFan wrote:I tracked 33 1971-79 Kareem games and here are the skyhook stats from this sample:

10.7 ppg, 8.8 FGA, 1.9 FTA on 52.9 FG% and 55,4 TS%

Some observations:

- almost 95% of Kareem skyhook attempts were right handed, but he was highly efficient with his left hand (finishing them at ridiculous 73% rate),
- my sampled games underrate Kareem's efficiency compared to his RS averages (53.7 FG% and 57.1 TS% compared to 55.5 FG% and 58.6 TS%)
- 5 out of 33 games I tracked were against Wilt Chamberlain who did a great job at shutting down skyhooks (Kareem made only 29% of his skyhooks against Wilt in my sample),
- Kareem became more reliant on skyhook during his Lakers career, but his hookshot also became more efficient. In 20 Lakers games I tracked, Jabbar made skyhooks on 56.7 FG% rate.

Any questions?

If you were to take a wild guess of Kareem's actual Skyhook field goal percentage from 71-79, what would it be?

I think my numbers aren't far from the reality. I can see him being around 53-54% in his absolute prime on those shots. Possible peak around 56% in the second part of the 1970s.

falcolombardi wrote:

70sFan wrote:I tracked 33 1971-79 Kareem games and here are the skyhook stats from this sample:

10.7 ppg, 8.8 FGA, 1.9 FTA on 52.9 FG% and 55,4 TS%

Some observations:

- almost 95% of Kareem skyhook attempts were right handed, but he was highly efficient with his left hand (finishing them at ridiculous 73% rate),
- my sampled games underrate Kareem's efficiency compared to his RS averages (53.7 FG% and 57.1 TS% compared to 55.5 FG% and 58.6 TS%)
- 5 out of 33 games I tracked were against Wilt Chamberlain who did a great job at shutting down skyhooks (Kareem made only 29% of his skyhooks against Wilt in my sample),
- Kareem became more reliant on skyhook during his Lakers career, but his hookshot also became more efficient. In 20 Lakers games I tracked, Jabbar made skyhooks on 56.7 FG% rate.

Any questions?

those percentages are mindblowing tbh

They are, of course not all of them were from short midrange area but still - it's the go-to move he relied heavily on.

When we compare it to other great post bigs, both the volume and the efficiency of his hook stands out. Would you like me to share Hakeem, Moses and Shaq hook numbers for comparison?

70sFan wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:

70sFan wrote:I tracked 33 1971-79 Kareem games and here are the skyhook stats from this sample:

10.7 ppg, 8.8 FGA, 1.9 FTA on 52.9 FG% and 55,4 TS%

Some observations:

- almost 95% of Kareem skyhook attempts were right handed, but he was highly efficient with his left hand (finishing them at ridiculous 73% rate),
- my sampled games underrate Kareem's efficiency compared to his RS averages (53.7 FG% and 57.1 TS% compared to 55.5 FG% and 58.6 TS%)
- 5 out of 33 games I tracked were against Wilt Chamberlain who did a great job at shutting down skyhooks (Kareem made only 29% of his skyhooks against Wilt in my sample),
- Kareem became more reliant on skyhook during his Lakers career, but his hookshot also became more efficient. In 20 Lakers games I tracked, Jabbar made skyhooks on 56.7 FG% rate.

Any questions?

those percentages are mindblowing tbh

They are, of course not all of them were from short midrange area but still - it's the go-to move he relied heavily on.

When we compare it to other great post bigs, both the volume and the efficiency of his hook stands out. Would you like me to share Hakeem, Moses and Shaq hook numbers for comparison?

if you have the time that would be awesome

1971-79 Kareem (33 games):

10.7 ppg, 8.8 FGA, 1.9 FTA on 52.9 FG% and 55.4 TS%

1993-94 Hakeem (35 games):

3.9 ppg, 3.2 FGA, 0.9 FTA on 50.5 FG% and 54.8 TS%

2000-01 Shaq (33 games):

5.5 ppg, 5.0 FGA, 0.9 FTA on 48.0% and 48.4 TS%

1979-83 Moses (38 games):

0.9 ppg, 0.9 FGA, 0.2 FTA on 41.9 FG% and 48.7 TS%

Kareem's volume and efficiency is unmatched by any of these three. Moses rarely used jumphook, he preferred using fadeaways and powerful drop steps instead.

jalengreen wrote:

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:11 out of his 20 years Kareem Shot better than TS% 60%
A 40% 3 point shooter is equal to a 60% 2 point shooter.

3 point shooters open up the paint for easy scores by guys who are not even good scorers.
Kareem's gravity opened up the 3 point line shooters but by modern standards the Lakers did not shoot 3s.
Kareem drew more fouls than 3 point shooters do.

Is there a role for Kareem today? Are you nuts, of course Kareem''s skyhook is still valuable just as a 40% three point shooter is still valuable.

i'm not arguing on a side here, but you appear to be operating under the assumption that every shot Kareem took was a skyhook lol. telling me his overall efficiency is pointless - my post states that he was obviously very efficient as an overall scorer. the question was in regards to his skyhook alone. his TS% does not tell me how he shot on skyhooks specifically

no one asked whether there was a role for kareem today, i am not sure why you said that.

your 40% 3P% comparison makes me think that you took kareem's 60% TS% and concluded that he made 60% of his skyhooks. which is.. odd

Oops sorry. You were asking about Skyhooks and I was thinking about Kareem.
Skyhook is undefendable and high percentage when done right. Unless the shooter is close to the basket the skyhook is less accurate than freethrows. Nobody will ever skyhook their free-throws. The point of the skyhook is the high release point, the fact that the realeasing hand is a target in motion so it is harder to smack the hand (which is part of the ball) on a skyhook than on a normal jump shot. And finally Kareem sheilds the defender away from the shooting hand with his body. Kareem's shoulder on his non-shooting arm and Kareem's head are manuevered to be in between the defender and the point at which the shot will be released. You can foul Kareem or try to bother Kareem mentally but the defender can't actually get to Kareem's Skyhook release point. A second defender that Kareem does not see can get to the skyhook release point by sneaking up from behind Kareem's back.

I assume the Skyhook is difficult to master because people have not masterred it but that is what I used to think about 3 point shooters when there were not many 3 point shooters. People were not shooting 3s because they did not think shooting 3s was worth doing. They changed their minds and began practicing 3 point shooting and it turned out that many did have the potential to shoot 3s. The same could be true for the skyhook; if people practiced skyhooks maybe they would get good at skyhooks. The skyhook is undefendable.

I have not seen data on his skyhook shooting percentage. Because I watched him on TV in real time and watched him again on video recently I insist that his shooting percentage on his sky hook was very good. Probably equal to his non-skyhook percentage. He got fouled on sky hooks perhaps a bit less than he was was fouled on non-skyhooks.

The skyhook was not really defendable without at least borderline fouling Kareem. Kareem's skyhook has been blocked about 5 times in his career. Bill Willoughby a leaper, Wilt Chamberlain and Artis Gilmore have blocked his shots. Gilmore got called for a goaltending once but I think Gilmore leagally blocked Kareem's shot at the top of the shots arch. That Gilmore video is available on youtube I think. Gilmore got his hand so far up into the air.

Some games Kareem might not have his rythm right and might ony shoot his skyhook at 30%. Other games Kareem shot Skyhooks at 90%. When Kareem was really in a groove he could hit long skyhooks from mid-midrange. The Skyhook needed a precise motion and was sussceptible to smaller guys pushing (fouling) Kareem while he shot. I think Kareem felt more comfortable after taking one dribble. Not letting Kareem have his 1 dribble could make the skyhook less accurate. Hands in Kareems face and a feeling of chaos caused by two men having hands in his face and swiping at the ball could lower his percentage. But I think pushing Kareem while he shot was the best defense if the refs would let the defender push Kareem. The good defenders knew how much the ref would let them push Kareem and they stayed just under the foul call threshold.

Another defensive tactic was too push and lean on Kareem before the entry pass. If Kareem gets pushed too far from the basket he will usually kick the ball back out and repost. If Kareem does settle for long skyhooks they don't go in the basket at as high a percentage as shorter skyhooks do. Defenders should try to deflect the entry pass because once Kareem has the ball in his shooting range he can beat perfect defense.

Kareem can beat perfect defense when he has found his rhythm but although perfect defense may not work and may only lower hot Kareem's shooting percentage from 80% to 70% lowering the shooting percentage from 80% to 70% is better than playing bad defense.

I don't know how hard it was for Kareem to master the skyhook but it would still be a great shot for any big man that can master the shot.
For a big man alone in the gym I think hitting Skyhooks comes down to removing wobbles from your elbow, and perfecting the release and catapult motion. The same is true for hitting free throws but I think a smaller error in motion would make a skyhook miss than would make a free throw miss.

Why are't centers shooting skyhooks today? I guess getting the skyhook accurate enough to be a good shot is not so easy. The beauty of the shot of course is how undefendable the shot is without fouling. Until a player can reliably hit the skyhook alone in the gym the fact that the skyhook is almost undefendable does not matter.

If I was a young (time left for learing new things) 7 footer in the NBA and had fine control over my arms and hands then I think I might practice the Skyhook and try to master that shot. Herky Jerky lumberjack muscle bound not so athletic type big men probably can't master the Skyhook. If a guy can't hit free throws, don't ask him to hit skyhooks.

penbeast0 wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:very

a lot of people who have tried to track him over large samples of footage give him a 50%~ accuracy which is elite for a go to move you can get anytime

Well he shot 56% for his career and a career high of 60%, I have trouble believing his hook shots were only made at a 50% rate.

He used to hook in the half court but he also ran the floor pretty well for a big, got a lot of putbacks and dunks, and had countermoves (including the lefty hoot) and drop steps if they tried to overplay him. Those were higher percentage shots and frequently shook his man altogether for higher percentages though set up by the skyhook. I spent my high school years trying to imitate his game.

Kareem did not skyhook offensive rebounds or loose balls or interior passes to him through traffic. The skyhook was not a quick shot for taking advantage of a momentariliy broken defense.

He was was accurate with that skyhook.

70sFan wrote:I tracked 33 1971-79 Kareem games and here are the skyhook stats from this sample:

10.7 ppg, 8.8 FGA, 1.9 FTA on 52.9 FG% and 55,4 TS%

Some observations:

- almost 95% of Kareem skyhook attempts were right handed, but he was highly efficient with his left hand (finishing them at ridiculous 73% rate),
- my sampled games underrate Kareem's efficiency compared to his RS averages (53.7 FG% and 57.1 TS% compared to 55.5 FG% and 58.6 TS%)
- 5 out of 33 games I tracked were against Wilt Chamberlain who did a great job at shutting down skyhooks (Kareem made only 29% of his skyhooks against Wilt in my sample),
- Kareem became more reliant on skyhook during his Lakers career, but his hookshot also became more efficient. In 20 Lakers games I tracked, Jabbar made skyhooks on 56.7 FG% rate.

Any questions?

What's his TS when leave those 5 games against Wilt?

feyki wrote:

70sFan wrote:I tracked 33 1971-79 Kareem games and here are the skyhook stats from this sample:

10.7 ppg, 8.8 FGA, 1.9 FTA on 52.9 FG% and 55,4 TS%

Some observations:

- almost 95% of Kareem skyhook attempts were right handed, but he was highly efficient with his left hand (finishing them at ridiculous 73% rate),
- my sampled games underrate Kareem's efficiency compared to his RS averages (53.7 FG% and 57.1 TS% compared to 55.5 FG% and 58.6 TS%)
- 5 out of 33 games I tracked were against Wilt Chamberlain who did a great job at shutting down skyhooks (Kareem made only 29% of his skyhooks against Wilt in my sample),
- Kareem became more reliant on skyhook during his Lakers career, but his hookshot also became more efficient. In 20 Lakers games I tracked, Jabbar made skyhooks on 56.7 FG% rate.

Any questions?

What's his TS when leave those 5 games against Wilt?

Overall or on skyhook attempts?

Overall, Kareem averaged 30.9 ppg on 60.1 TS% and 56.5 FG% in 27 games without ones against the Lakers.

His skyhook efficiency was at 56 FG% without these 5 games vs Wilt.

70sFan wrote:

feyki wrote:

70sFan wrote:I tracked 33 1971-79 Kareem games and here are the skyhook stats from this sample:

10.7 ppg, 8.8 FGA, 1.9 FTA on 52.9 FG% and 55,4 TS%

Some observations:

- almost 95% of Kareem skyhook attempts were right handed, but he was highly efficient with his left hand (finishing them at ridiculous 73% rate),
- my sampled games underrate Kareem's efficiency compared to his RS averages (53.7 FG% and 57.1 TS% compared to 55.5 FG% and 58.6 TS%)
- 5 out of 33 games I tracked were against Wilt Chamberlain who did a great job at shutting down skyhooks (Kareem made only 29% of his skyhooks against Wilt in my sample),
- Kareem became more reliant on skyhook during his Lakers career, but his hookshot also became more efficient. In 20 Lakers games I tracked, Jabbar made skyhooks on 56.7 FG% rate.

Any questions?

What's his TS when leave those 5 games against Wilt?

Overall or on skyhook attempts?

Overall, Kareem averaged 30.9 ppg on 60.1 TS% and 56.5 FG% in 27 games without ones against the Lakers.

His skyhook efficiency was at 56 FG% without these 5 games vs Wilt.

Are these hooks from mid-range? I mean 8-16ft?