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Where does Kevin Johnson rank among PGs alltime? Who is ahead of him?

Is he a top 10 scorer and distributor among PGs.

Definitely not top 10 in terms of career, but maybe an outside chance for top 10 peak? I don't know, I would have to think a bit longer for that one.

70sFan wrote:Definitely not top 10 in terms of career, but maybe an outside chance for top 10 peak? I don't know, I would have to think a bit longer for that one.

Can you name the PGs ahead of him career?

Magic
Curry
CP3
Oscar
West
Nash
Stockton
Kidd
Harden
Frazier
Isiah Thomas
Westbrook
Billups
Payton
Cousy

Outside shot:
Parker
Iverson
Porter

migya wrote:

70sFan wrote:Definitely not top 10 in terms of career, but maybe an outside chance for top 10 peak? I don't know, I would have to think a bit longer for that one.

Can you name the PGs ahead of him career?

Bob Cousy
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Walt Frazier
Magic Johnson
Isiah Thomas
John Stockton
Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
Steve Nash
Chris Paul
Russell Westbrook
Stephen Curry

for sure. There are also PGs with strong case over him:

Bob Davies
Lenny Wilkens
Nate Archibald
Gus Williams
Mark Price
Chauncey Billups
Tony Parker
Damian Lillard

I might forget someone, but it's a decent list.

For his career he probably borderline top 20 at best. In terms of peak ability I don't think you could name 15 guys that are definitively better than him. He was consistently an all star level player through out his prime while having stretches where he would play like a superstar.

The 1994 playoffs was probably Kevin Johnson at his absolute best. And he was nothing short of dominant. He played like a full fledged superstar and lost a game 7 heartbreaker. Had the Suns got past the Rockets and pushed on to the finals as they were projected we would remember him as a much greater player than we do now.

what was kevin Johnson game like ? never put thag much attention on him and only watched him when looking at barkley suns games by which point i think he was past his peak?

edit: this is off topic but it reminds me of the old theory that people with common/regular names are less memorable/underated compared to those with more unique and memorable ones

Kevin Johnson sounds like such a random player that i wonder if it has contributted to him being forgotten a bit

falcolombardi wrote:what was kevin Johnson game like ? never put thag much attention on him and only watched him when looking at barkley suns games by which point i think he was past his peak?

edit: this is off topic but it reminds me of the old theory that people with common/regular names are less memorable/underated compared to those with more unique and memorable ones

Kevin Johnson sounds like such a random player that i wonder if it has contributted to him being forgotten a bit

He could get by anybody and didn't need a screen, just like Derrick Rose before the injury

falcolombardi wrote:what was kevin Johnson game like ? never put thag much attention on him and only watched him when looking at barkley suns games by which point i think he was past his peak?

edit: this is off topic but it reminds me of the old theory that people with common/regular names are less memorable/underated compared to those with more unique and memorable ones

Kevin Johnson sounds like such a random player that i wonder if it has contributted to him being forgotten a bit

His post-career scandal has hurt his legacy at this point; I've no question at all he'd be in the Hall by now if not for that. But the HOF won't have anything to do with him after that.

He was one of my favorite players of the circa-1990 era, personally. Only 6'1", but he had a way of sort of putting his head down and just getting to the bucket. Sort of like Tony Parker, but with a little more power it seemed to me........as evidenced by the following famous play, perhaps:



He wasn't much of an outside shooter. Looking at his bbref page he had two seasons late in his career shooting a high % from downtown [on relatively low(ish) volume both times]; but both were in the seasons when they shortened the 3pt line. I recall him taking pull-ups in roughly the 12-18' range fairly regularly, though (I feel like he hit them pretty well, too, though we don't have the data; good FT-shooter, fwiw).
Really solid play-maker, too; mostly by way of collapsing the defense and hitting an open teammate, iirc.
To this day, the only players who have more seasons averaging >18 ppg/9apg are Oscar, Magic, and Chris Paul (and KJ did that [that is: have SEVEN such seasons] despite having relatively poor longevity in the grand scheme of things).

Was a fairly weak defender, fwiw. But he led some of the best offenses in the league, year after year: consider that from '89-'95 [that's SEVEN years, yo], the worst offense seen in Phoenix was +3.9 rORTG (the best was +6.2; they averaged +5.1 over a 7-year span). Three of those years were with Barkley, but Phoenix was averaging a +4.7 rORTG [peaking at +5.3] in the FOUR years prior to Barkley's arrival. Just super-consistent in how good they were offensively.

The Suns always seemed right on the cusp of greatness during that span......just couldn't get over the hump.

Stalwart wrote: He played like a full fledged superstar and lost a game 7 heartbreaker. Had the Suns got past the Rockets and pushed on to the finals as they were projected we would remember him as a much greater player than we do now.

Similar to Darren Sharper his off court actions prevent him from being remembered. Unless you're OJ level great, dirtbags are basically omitted from the history books.

Pre-Barkley KJ led his team over to back to back WCF at 22 and 23 years old. Huge playoff series, 23/13 against the lakers.
He played with an undiagnosed hernia Barkley's first season there and two years later doctors found a 2nd one they missed he had been playing through.

He had a very high peak, great vision, very fast. Many suns fans rate his peak as high or higher than Nash.

ATTL wrote:Pre-Barkley KJ led his team over to back to back WCF at 22 and 23 years old. Huge playoff series, 23/13 against the lakers.
He played with an undiagnosed hernia Barkley's first season there and two years later doctors found a 2nd one they missed he had been playing through.

He had a very high peak, great vision, very fast. Many suns fans rate his peak as high or higher than Nash.

He was great from a young age and it was only those injuries that stopped his career from going another few years.

He certainly was better than Nash and for longer. Without handchecking and other easing of rules KJ would've been even more menacing on offense.

migya wrote:He certainly was better than Nash and for longer. Without handchecking and other easing of rules KJ would've been even more menacing on offense.

That's not even close to the truth.

He's like a top 15 guy, and if I cared more about longevity probably worse than that.

70sFan wrote:

migya wrote:He certainly was better than Nash and for longer. Without handchecking and other easing of rules KJ would've been even more menacing on offense.

That's not even close to the truth.

Yes it is. KJ took less talented teams to as good success as Nash on the Suns. KJ did that as the leading scorer and distributor too.

migya wrote:

70sFan wrote:

migya wrote:He certainly was better than Nash and for longer. Without handchecking and other easing of rules KJ would've been even more menacing on offense.

That's not even close to the truth.

Yes it is. KJ took less talented teams to as good success as Nash on the Suns. KJ did that as the leading scorer and distributor too.

KJ and Nash both went to the WCF, but KJ's team was less talented - therefore, KJ is better than Nash.


You really can't break down basketball more than that?

migya wrote:

70sFan wrote:

migya wrote:He certainly was better than Nash and for longer. Without handchecking and other easing of rules KJ would've been even more menacing on offense.

That's not even close to the truth.

Yes it is. KJ took less talented teams to as good success as Nash on the Suns. KJ did that as the leading scorer and distributor too.

Suns weren't less talented during KJ best years. They were quite stacked both in terms of depth and top talent. What makes Nash teams more talented?

HeartBreakKid wrote:

migya wrote:

70sFan wrote:That's not even close to the truth.

Yes it is. KJ took less talented teams to as good success as Nash on the Suns. KJ did that as the leading scorer and distributor too.

KJ and Nash both went to the WCF, but KJ's team was less talented - therefore, KJ is better than Nash.


You really can't break down basketball more than that?

Why not?

Isn't that the same excuse that is used for KG ad nauseum? "KG would have had similar success to Duncan if he would have had similar talent"

I agree that KJ was thought of as a far better player than Nash until Nash's 2nd stint in PHX. Nash had Dirk for six years and did what?

KJ smoked a Lakers team that had a prime Magic, Worthy, and Byron Scott four games to one in the 1990 playoffs.

The only thing holding KJ back was he was as injury prone as say Anthony Davis. He was hurt during the 1993 season, so Barkley had to carry that team, but a healthy KJ and Barkley is a #1 contender every year. Just like a a healthy Lebron and AD, but since health is the #1 consideration you have to knock KJ down quite a bit.

Imo, KJ was able to get to the basket like Tony Parker, Derrick Rose, Baron Davis...but he could go left or right adeptly and he had the nicest 15-18 pullup that defenders couldn't keep up with. His first step was nasty, I put it up there with anyone else. His 3pt range was admittedly weak, but that is the only flaw in his game.

I think as a pure playmaker KG is underrated and better than other PG's like a Steph Curry, Russell Westbrook.....

G35 wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:

migya wrote:
Yes it is. KJ took less talented teams to as good success as Nash on the Suns. KJ did that as the leading scorer and distributor too.

KJ and Nash both went to the WCF, but KJ's team was less talented - therefore, KJ is better than Nash.


You really can't break down basketball more than that?

Why not?

Isn't that the same excuse that is used for KG ad nauseum? "KG would have had similar success to Duncan if he would have had similar talent"

I agree that KJ was thought of as a far better player than Nash until Nash's 2nd stint in PHX. Nash had Dirk for six years and did what?

KJ smoked a Lakers team that had a prime Magic, Worthy, and Byron Scott four games to one in the 1990 playoffs.

The only thing holding KJ back was he was as injury prone as say Anthony Davis. He was hurt during the 1993 season, so Barkley had to carry that team, but a healthy KJ and Barkley is a #1 contender every year. Just like a a healthy Lebron and AD, but since health is the #1 consideration you have to knock KJ down quite a bit.

Imo, KJ was able to get to the basket like Tony Parker, Derrick Rose, Baron Davis...but he could go left or right adeptly and he had the nicest 15-18 pullup that defenders couldn't keep up with. His first step was nasty, I put it up there with anyone else. His 3pt range was admittedly weak, but that is the only flaw in his game.

I think as a pure playmaker KG is underrated and better than other PG's like a Steph Curry, Russell Westbrook.....

That's pretty much it. The modern day darlings won't accept any guard from before 2010 being better than their nightly highlight stars.

KJ was probably the most unstoppable guard besides Jordan in the 90s.

70sFan wrote:

migya wrote:

70sFan wrote:That's not even close to the truth.

Yes it is. KJ took less talented teams to as good success as Nash on the Suns. KJ did that as the leading scorer and distributor too.

Suns weren't less talented during KJ best years. They were quite stacked both in terms of depth and top talent. What makes Nash teams more talented?

Marion on his own makes Nash's teams better. He was by far the best defender and two way player on both squads. Amare was better than Chambers and more odd a matchup problem. Joe Johnson was also a better two way platter than anyone KJ had in the early 90s especially, when KJ didn't have Barkley. Raja Bell and Diaw were also far better two way players than anyone KJ had besides 92 onwards Majerle, which was until 95.