players who were bad defenders despite strong effort or physical tools?

falcolombardi · Post #1 » by **falcolombardi** » Thu Apr 7, 2022 8:23 pm

it got discussed in the 2022 season thread if a jokic focused on defense could be a marc gasol level defender since he is even smarter

and there was disagreement and examples of player who put a lot of effort or have elite physical tools (athletism, lenght, etc) or are clearly smart on the court but are still not strong defenders

who are guys you feel like they should be better defenders given their athletism, effort or intelligence thsn what they actually are?

Post #2 » by **Texas Chuck** » Thu Apr 7, 2022 8:48 pm

I mentioned him there, but will again--Dwight Powell. He's very mobile, extremely good leaper, strong enough, and works his tail off. But he's not a very good defender--been better this year, but historically not been very good. Stanford grad and a leader in the NBAPA so likely a smart guy and comes across super smart in interviews.

Not sure I agree he should be a better defender(though I wish he were). I definitely am not a believer that defense is just tools and effort. I think there is more skill to it than that. You are having to process and read a bunch of players moving quickly in real-time and know how to react. And being a bit slow to process means you are beat. It's why a guy like Wes Matthews continues to get starting nods on good teams despite physically being nowhere near what he was in Portland. His mental processing is still on point.

Tim Duncan continued to be an elite defender to the very end even as that last year especially his body starting going.

sp6r=underrated · Post #3 » by **sp6r=underrated** » Thu Apr 7, 2022 10:32 pm

falcolombardi wrote:it got discussed in the 2022 season thread if a jokic focused on defense could be a marc gasol level defender since he is even smarter

and there was disagreement and examples of player who put a lot of effort or have elite physical tools (athletism, lenght, etc) or are clearly smart on the court but are still not strong defenders

who are guys you feel like they should be better defenders given their athletism, effort or intelligence thsn what they actually are?

Amare being historically bad defensively makes no sense on paper. He didn't have the tools to be an ATG or anything but there is no reason he should have been such a sleeve.

Dr Positivity · Post #4 » by **Dr Positivity** » Fri Apr 8, 2022 3:18 am

Westbrook

Peregrine01 · Post #5 » by **Peregrine01** » Fri Apr 8, 2022 3:59 am

Dr Positivity wrote:Westbrook

Westbrook's effort wasn't all that good on defense, especially off ball.

Javale McGee would be my pick.

colts18 · Post #6 » by **colts18** » Fri Apr 8, 2022 4:36 am

Hassan Whiteside

dygaction · Post #7 » by **dygaction** » Fri Apr 8, 2022 6:12 am

Davis Bertans. He has been running around and very actively trying to help defense, but just not very good.
The way how fiercely he grabbed some of the rebounds were quite impressive, I have to admit.

70sFan · Post #8 » by **70sFan** » Fri Apr 8, 2022 6:22 am

Elmore Smith was athletic freak who blocked a lot of shots, but somehow he never turned it into defensive impact.

SinceGatlingWasARookie · Post #9 » by **SinceGatlingWasARookie** » Fri Apr 8, 2022 9:16 am

Peregrine01 wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:Westbrook

Westbrook's effort wasn't all that good on defense, especially off ball.

Javale McGee would be my pick.

When JaVale arrived at Golden State I was expecting a stupid defender because I listened to other people.
What I actually saw from JaVale as a Warrior was a good defender.

Colbinii · Post #10 » by **Colbinii** » Fri Apr 8, 2022 1:57 pm

Karl-Anthony Towns. He fouls too much, tries hard defensively and showed strong defensive instincts in college.

sp6r=underrated · Post #11 » by **sp6r=underrated** » Fri Apr 8, 2022 2:51 pm

Colbinii wrote:Karl-Anthony Towns. He fouls too much, tries hard defensively and showed strong defensive instincts in college.

Very nice call and it is what holds him out of the MVP level

Post #12 » by **penbeast0** » Fri Apr 8, 2022 2:55 pm

70sFan wrote:Elmore Smith was athletic freak who blocked a lot of shots, but somehow he never turned it into defensive impact.

Can you make a statistical case with team DRTGs and personnel for this? I think it is true as well and have said it in the past, but just don't have the time right now to check up on it.

70sFan · Post #13 » by **70sFan** » Fri Apr 8, 2022 4:16 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
70sFan wrote:Elmore Smith was athletic freak who blocked a lot of shots, but somehow he never turned it into defensive impact.

Can you make a statistical case with team DRTGs and personnel for this? I think it is true as well and have said it in the past, but just don't have the time right now to check up on it.

I don't have the time to go in depth, but here is quick look at the team situation (positive DRtg is a bad thing):

1971 Braves (before drafting Smith): +2.4 rDRtg
1972 Braves (41 mpg): +4.2 rDRtg
1973 Braves (37 mpg): +4.4 rDRtg
1974 Braves (no Smith): +1.7 DRtg

1973 Lakers (Wilt's last season): -5.0 rDRtg
1974 Lakers (36 mpg): -1.1 rDRtg
1975 Lakers (32 mpg): +2.2 rDRtg
1976 Lakers (Kareem, no Smith): +0.6 rDRtg

FuShengTHEGreat · Post #14 » by **FuShengTHEGreat** » Fri Apr 8, 2022 5:08 pm

Nique for sure. He only gave all his effort to one half of the court.

LesGrossman · Post #15 » by **LesGrossman** » Fri Apr 8, 2022 7:55 pm

Of current players, Towns and Love come to mind. Of course there are the notorious "offense only" guys like Carmelo, Russ, Kyrie. A few young guys who seem very athletic surprisingly struggle with D, usually because they lack instinct (feeling where they should be the next second). Some also suffer from a high center of gravity due to unproportionally long legs, like Brandon Ingram.

In the past, i feel like Steve Nash - one of my idols - never lived up to his potential, both athletic and IQ wise, on that end of the floor.