The LeBron James - 21-22 Off-Season Thread Part 1 (Please Lock Thread)

[falcolombardi]

Why does it never get mentioned that Lebron has a case for greatest inside scorer of all time? It's honestly becoming more obvious with how he's retaining his efficiency with a declining athleticism. Harks back to the theory that many knows he's great without knowing what is actually great about him. This is why there's the myth he's great at everything but transcendent at nothing. His efficiency and volume numbers are surpassed only by Shaq and one could make a case even rivals them.

When we talk scoring greats we talk greatest midrange and 3pt shooters but rarely mention players excelling in the most efficient shot in basketball.

I guess that is not as sexy of a skill as midrange fades or 3 point shooting?

Lebron actually self created much more of his inside shots compared to shaq and created even more shots out of his inside scoring threath

[toodles23]

Why does it never get mentioned that Lebron has a case for greatest inside scorer of all time? It's honestly becoming more obvious with how he's retaining his efficiency with a declining athleticism. Harks back to the theory that many know he's great without knowing what is actually great about him. This is why there's the myth he's great at everything but transcendent at nothing. His efficiency and volume numbers are surpassed only by Shaq and one could make a case even rivals them.

When we talk scoring greats we talk greatest midrange and 3pt shooters but rarely mention players excelling in the most efficient shot in basketball.

I think it's mostly because he makes it look so easy that it goes unappreciated. A Jordan contorting reverse layup is much more memorable and flashy than most of Lebron's finishes to a casual observer.

A finish like the one here at 50 seconds here is a shot very few guys in the league could make. It requires a very high level of understanding of angles and how to put the exact right type of English on the ball to make it from that spot, as well as good timing to avoid getting blocked, but he makes it look so simple that most people are going to forget about it within a couple of possessions.

Watch on YouTube

[falcolombardi]

Why does it never get mentioned that Lebron has a case for greatest inside scorer of all time? It's honestly becoming more obvious with how he's retaining his efficiency with a declining athleticism. Harks back to the theory that many know he's great without knowing what is actually great about him. This is why there's the myth he's great at everything but transcendent at nothing. His efficiency and volume numbers are surpassed only by Shaq and one could make a case even rivals them.

When we talk scoring greats we talk greatest midrange and 3pt shooters but rarely mention players excelling in the most efficient shot in basketball.

I think it's mostly because he makes it look so easy that it goes unappreciated. A Jordan contorting reverse layup is much more memorable and flashy than most of Lebron's finishes to a casual observer.

A finish like the one here at 50 seconds here is a shot very few guys in the league could make. It requires a very high level of understanding of angles and how to put the exact right type of English on the ball to make it from that spot, as well as good timing to avoid getting blocked, but he makes it look so simple that most people are going to forget about it within a couple of possessions.

Watch on YouTube

0:30 scores off ball as a fastbreak man

0:42 scores off ball from a cut to the rim

1:10 another off ball score of a fast break run

1:30 scores of a catch and shoot 3

2:20 scores off ball again from a timely cut to the rim

2:50 off ball scoring of a deep seal and catch on the mismatch

3:05 ANOTHER lay-up of a timely cut

3:25 catch and shot 3

3:35 timely cut for a offensive rebound and put-back, more off-ball value

4:55 another lay up of a deep seal and catch

So much for "no off ball value", 22 points out of off-ball plays alone (and that is while gettting zero free throws)

[toodles23]

Was thinking of making this a new topic but what do you guys think of LeBron's 06 and 07 seasons? They're hardly talked about and I feel like opinion on them has been down on here ever since backpicks but I'm really not seeing any evidence to suggest that LeBron was much worse than Kobe or Wade during those seasons, if he was at all. DPM sees LeBron and Wade relatively even and even a rung above Kobe and tbh I'm inclined to agree.



Ben's film study and points about LeBron's improvements as a passer and defender in 09 are great and all but by all accounts he seems to have already been an MVPish player by 06.

A big deal has also been made about Luka supposedly eclipsing young LeBron but there isn't any evidence to support that except the inflated box score stats of today. He was probably on pace with LeBron during his rookie and sophomore years but he's flatlined since while LeBron made a leap in 06 and another in 08. He really is the Kobe to LeBron's Mike.

I think of '06 as a solid MVP level season, with '07 a bit below that because he regressed somewhat on offense though he did improve quite a bit defensively which makes up for that to some extent. Interesting that the regression shows up on DAKRO DPM too.

I also agree that Lebron has a great case for having a better regular season in '06 than Kobe. He was a more efficient scorer and was clearly doing quite a bit more as a playmaker that year than Kobe, and while Kobe could theoretically be a better defender at that point, for the most part he sucked on that end in '06 giving very little effort, though of course when it was a national TV game Kobe loved to gear up and make a huge show of hounding opposing ball handlers full court once or twice, which inevitably would end up making highlights and are all over Youtube now if you search for it.

2006 Lebron also beats Kobe in box based advanced stats with a solid advantage in BPM, VORP, win shares, and even edges him out in PER even though that stat is way too generous to raw scoring volume and greatly undervalues playmaking.

As far as supporting casts, they were both weak and I'm not sure which I would take, but the Cavs managed to win 5 more games. Both rosters were made up of journeymen for the most part.

I think it's reasonable to prefer Kobe and Wade for a playoff run that year though. Kobe was obviously much more experienced and could probably be a more impactful defender on a championship level roster, and Wade played the same Pistons team that beat the Cavs and was far better against them than Lebron was. Some of that was fluky hot shooting on 2 point jumpers, Wade shot an insane 30 of 49 on 2s from 10+ feet in that series, but it happened so he gets credit for it. He put up 27/5/6 on a ridiculous 68.4 TS% in that series, which was also played at an almost comically slow pace of 83.8 possessions/game.

[falcolombardi]

Was thinking of making this a new topic but what do you guys think of LeBron's 06 and 07 seasons? They're hardly talked about and I feel like opinion on them has been down on here ever since backpicks but I'm really not seeing any evidence to suggest that LeBron was much worse than Kobe or Wade during those seasons, if he was at all. DPM sees LeBron and Wade relatively even and even a rung above Kobe and tbh I'm inclined to agree.



Ben's film study and points about LeBron's improvements as a passer and defender in 09 are great and all but by all accounts he seems to have already been an MVPish player by 06.

A big deal has also been made about Luka supposedly eclipsing young LeBron but there isn't any evidence to support that except the inflated box score stats of today. He was probably on pace with LeBron during his rookie and sophomore years but he's flatlined since while LeBron made a leap in 06 and another in 08. He really is the Kobe to LeBron's Mike.

I think of '06 as a solid MVP level season, with '07 a bit below that because he regressed somewhat on offense though he did improve quite a bit defensively which makes up for that to some extent. Interesting that the regression shows up on DAKRO DPM too.

I also agree that Lebron has a great case for having a better regular season in '06 than Kobe. He was a more efficient scorer and was clearly doing quite a bit more as a playmaker that year than Kobe, and while Kobe could theoretically be a better defender at that point, for the most part he sucked on that end in '06 giving very little effort, though of course when it was a national TV game Kobe loved to gear up and make a huge show of hounding opposing ball handlers full court once or twice, which inevitably would end up making highlights and are all over Youtube now if you search for it.

2006 Lebron also beats Kobe in box based advanced stats with a solid advantage in BPM, VORP, win shares, and even edges him out in PER even though that stat is way too generous to raw scoring volume and greatly undervalues playmaking.

As far as supporting casts, they were both weak and I'm not sure which I would take, but the Cavs managed to win 5 more games. Both rosters were made up of journeymen for the most part.

I think it's reasonable to prefer Kobe and Wade for a playoff run that year though. Kobe was obviously much more experienced and could probably be a more impactful defender on a championship level roster, and Wade played the same Pistons team that beat the Cavs and was far better against them than Lebron was. Some of that was fluky hot shooting on 2 point jumpers, Wade shot an insane 30 of 49 on 2s from 10+ feet in that series, but it happened so he gets credit for it. He put up 27/5/6 on a ridiculous 68.4 TS% in that series, which was also played at an almost comically slow pace of 83.8 possessions/game.

I think ben is sometimes guilty of ignoring hard data relevance when it doesnt coincide with his aesthetical preferences or game tracking and making up somewhat unconvincing reasoning around that
(And to be fair i donr mean this as a big criticism cause i see myself as guilty of this at times and we all as vulnerable to those biases)

Young lebron was much more raw im his reads and reactions but he was probably making a impact in defense out of raw athletism

This post also reminds me of what a monster 2006 wade was

[toodles23]

Watch on YouTube

0:30 scores off ball as a fastbreak man

0:42 scores off ball from a cut to the rim

1:10 another off ball score of a fast break run

1:30 scores of a catch and shoot 3

2:20 scores off ball again from a timely cut to the rim

2:50 off ball scoring of a deep seal and catch on the mismatch

3:05 ANOTHER lay-up of a timely cut

3:25 catch and shot 3

3:35 timely cut for a offensive rebound and put-back, more off-ball value

4:55 another lay up of a deep seal and catch

So much for "no off ball value", 22 points out of off-ball plays alone (and that is while gettting zero free throws)

Yeah Lebron has always been a fantastic cutter with great feel for it, and his spot up shooting during his prime has always been at least good enough that teams have to guard him out there. IIRC his spot up numbers were legitimately great during 2013 and 2014 but I don't know where to find those numbers now.

Lebron has really never gotten a chance to play with a great passer/playmaker which is unfortunate. Obviously there was nobody notable in his first Cleveland stint, and while Wade (before age and injuries started hitting) was great at leveraging his gravity as a scorer to set up teammates and was a sneaky good lob passer, he wasn't the kind of guy who was going to be diming up cutters all the time. During his second Cleveland stint Kyrie was obviously not that guy either. As terrible as Westbrook was last season overall he might be the best guy he's ever played with in terms of enabling his off ball game.

[ronnymac2]

Lebron has really never gotten a chance to play with a great passer/playmaker which is unfortunate. Obviously there was nobody notable in his first Cleveland stint, and while Wade (before age and injuries started hitting) was great at leveraging his gravity as a scorer to set up teammates and was a sneaky good lob passer, he wasn't the kind of guy who was going to be diming up cutters all the time. During his second Cleveland stint Kyrie was obviously not that guy either. As terrible as Westbrook was last season overall he might be the best guy he's ever played with in terms of enabling his off ball game.

LBJ and old Deron Williams had excellent chemistry. Obviously he didn't play as many MPG with LBJ as RW, but per possession he was the best imo.

[Mos_Heat]

Jeanie’s behavior will ensure that the Lakers don’t sign another superstar for the foreseeable future. She’s cheap. She subtweets her biggest star in the middle of the night. She allows the Rambii to heavily influence her decision making. Her GM is incompetent. She won’t make win now moves to maximize her star’s title window. What star is signing up for that? If they want to be in LA, the Clippers are 100x a better choice. The lakers are going to fade into obscurity. The west coast Knicks.

I doubt it, being a superstar in LA is too appealing and I doubt many of them care so much about the state of LAL's front office(Lebron didn't care). Plus the Lakers have been super successful in this century, they had iconic players on their roster, the whole Mamba Mentality thing etc.

I don’t agree that LeBron doesn’t care. Magic had a big hand in bringing LeBron to LA, and Magic is gone now. LeBron’s also in a different stage of his career at this point. 20 years in with 4 championships. He has different priorities than he did when he was 27-28 years old. And if the reports are to be believed, he’s not happy with the front office at all right now.

He didn't care in 2018, and if Magic was so big in acquiring him that's only proves my point

The lakers really haven’t attracted superstars away from other teams in free agency in the past 25 years or so. They’ve gotten Shaq and LeBron, but have they gotten anyone else?

Yeah, Shaq in his prime and Lebron in his late prime. Pretty good

[zimpy27]

I doubt it, being a superstar in LA is too appealing and I doubt many of them care so much about the state of LAL's front office(Lebron didn't care). Plus the Lakers have been super successful in this century, they had iconic players on their roster, the whole Mamba Mentality thing etc.

I don’t agree that LeBron doesn’t care. Magic had a big hand in bringing LeBron to LA, and Magic is gone now. LeBron’s also in a different stage of his career at this point. 20 years in with 4 championships. He has different priorities than he did when he was 27-28 years old. And if the reports are to be believed, he’s not happy with the front office at all right now.

He didn't care in 2018, and if Magic was so big in acquiring him that's only proves my point

The lakers really haven’t attracted superstars away from other teams in free agency in the past 25 years or so. They’ve gotten Shaq and LeBron, but have they gotten anyone else?

Yeah, Shaq in his prime and Lebron in his late prime. Pretty good

I wonder who they get in 20 years. Dude is probably 5 years old right now

[Mos_Heat]

I don’t agree that LeBron doesn’t care. Magic had a big hand in bringing LeBron to LA, and Magic is gone now. LeBron’s also in a different stage of his career at this point. 20 years in with 4 championships. He has different priorities than he did when he was 27-28 years old. And if the reports are to be believed, he’s not happy with the front office at all right now.

He didn't care in 2018, and if Magic was so big in acquiring him that's only proves my point

The lakers really haven’t attracted superstars away from other teams in free agency in the past 25 years or so. They’ve gotten Shaq and LeBron, but have they gotten anyone else?

Yeah, Shaq in his prime and Lebron in his late prime. Pretty good

I wonder who they get in 20 years. Dude is probably 5 years old right now

Maybe, superstars rarely change teams via FA

[capfan33]

Why does it never get mentioned that Lebron has a case for greatest inside scorer of all time? It's honestly becoming more obvious with how he's retaining his efficiency with a declining athleticism. Harks back to the theory that many know he's great without knowing what is actually great about him. This is why there's the myth he's great at everything but transcendent at nothing. His efficiency and volume numbers are surpassed only by Shaq and one could make a case even rivals them.

When we talk scoring greats we talk greatest midrange and 3pt shooters but rarely mention players excelling in the most efficient shot in basketball.

I think it's mostly because he makes it look so easy that it goes unappreciated. A Jordan contorting reverse layup is much more memorable and flashy than most of Lebron's finishes to a casual observer.

A finish like the one here at 50 seconds here is a shot very few guys in the league could make. It requires a very high level of understanding of angles and how to put the exact right type of English on the ball to make it from that spot, as well as good timing to avoid getting blocked, but he makes it look so simple that most people are going to forget about it within a couple of possessions.

Watch on YouTube

0:30 scores off ball as a fastbreak man

0:42 scores off ball from a cut to the rim

1:10 another off ball score of a fast break run

1:30 scores of a catch and shoot 3

2:20 scores off ball again from a timely cut to the rim

2:50 off ball scoring of a deep seal and catch on the mismatch

3:05 ANOTHER lay-up of a timely cut

3:25 catch and shot 3

3:35 timely cut for a offensive rebound and put-back, more off-ball value

4:55 another lay up of a deep seal and catch

So much for "no off ball value", 22 points out of off-ball plays alone (and that is while gettting zero free throws)

Such a stupid narrative, Lebron's been an excellent off-ball player since Miami and probably was capable of doing it before then.

[capfan33]

Watch on YouTube

0:30 scores off ball as a fastbreak man

0:42 scores off ball from a cut to the rim

1:10 another off ball score of a fast break run

1:30 scores of a catch and shoot 3

2:20 scores off ball again from a timely cut to the rim

2:50 off ball scoring of a deep seal and catch on the mismatch

3:05 ANOTHER lay-up of a timely cut

3:25 catch and shot 3

3:35 timely cut for a offensive rebound and put-back, more off-ball value

4:55 another lay up of a deep seal and catch

So much for "no off ball value", 22 points out of off-ball plays alone (and that is while gettting zero free throws)

Yeah Lebron has always been a fantastic cutter with great feel for it, and his spot up shooting during his prime has always been at least good enough that teams have to guard him out there. IIRC his spot up numbers were legitimately great during 2013 and 2014 but I don't know where to find those numbers now.

Lebron has really never gotten a chance to play with a great passer/playmaker which is unfortunate. Obviously there was nobody notable in his first Cleveland stint, and while Wade (before age and injuries started hitting) was great at leveraging his gravity as a scorer to set up teammates and was a sneaky good lob passer, he wasn't the kind of guy who was going to be diming up cutters all the time. During his second Cleveland stint Kyrie was obviously not that guy either. As terrible as Westbrook was last season overall he might be the best guy he's ever played with in terms of enabling his off ball game.

If you go on bball index and do a little fiddling with the catch and shoot numbers, Lebron is roughly in the 65th percentile among spot up 3 point shooters as far back as that databse goes (2014) in terms of percentage. I think I set it to like 400 attempts from 3 but it's roughly the same as long as you put reasonable volume on it.

[Run DLC]

I see him averaging 27.8 PPG, 7 rebounds, 7 assists this season.

[falcolombardi]

I see him averaging 27.8 PPG, 7 rebounds, 7 assists this season.

In 2020 he went 25/10 with a more assists first role

Depending on team construction i could see lebron toning down his scoring in the regular season and doing somethingh in the 21-24 range

[afox]

LeBron will never be the GOAT as he can't achieve anywhere near as much as Jordan despite playing with way more talent. He teamed up with superstars and stars in Wade/Bosh, Kyrie/Love and Anthony Davis and still has asterisks on his resume by choking in the FInals, getting swept twice and having worse impact and stats and fewer DPOY's and MVPs and Finals MVP's and scoring titles than Jordan. LeBron fans thoroughly get dominated in every Jordan vs LeBron thread as there is no credible, objective evidence to rank LeBron as the GOAT. They bring up pitiful examples such as Jordan losing to vastly superior Pistons, Celtics etc teams without a real team and compare it to LeBron getting destroyed in the FInals multiple times while he was playing on a superteam himself. AT very best he could be argued at #2 but some could put him as low as #5 as well.

3 posts, joined 2017, and you come to the LeBron thread.

Hit the nail on the head though...Didn't he....If you have to tear down MJ, then you're not that guy...MJ dominated the league statistically, and winning as well...He's been more successful.

[dcstanley]

LeBron will never be the GOAT as he can't achieve anywhere near as much as Jordan despite playing with way more talent. He teamed up with superstars and stars in Wade/Bosh, Kyrie/Love and Anthony Davis and still has asterisks on his resume by choking in the FInals, getting swept twice and having worse impact and stats and fewer DPOY's and MVPs and Finals MVP's and scoring titles than Jordan. LeBron fans thoroughly get dominated in every Jordan vs LeBron thread as there is no credible, objective evidence to rank LeBron as the GOAT. They bring up pitiful examples such as Jordan losing to vastly superior Pistons, Celtics etc teams without a real team and compare it to LeBron getting destroyed in the FInals multiple times while he was playing on a superteam himself. AT very best he could be argued at #2 but some could put him as low as #5 as well.

3 posts, joined 2017, and you come to the LeBron thread.

Hit the nail on the head though...Didn't he....If you have to tear down MJ, then you're not that guy...MJ dominated the league statistically, and winning as well...He's been more successful.

No, he didn't.

[Run DLC]

I see him averaging 27.8 PPG, 7 rebounds, 7 assists this season.

In 2020 he went 25/10 with a more assists first role

Depending on team construction i could see lebron toning down his scoring in the regular season and doing somethingh in the 21-24 range

Nah, I think he’s going to keep that 25 PPG streak going.

[homecourtloss]

Lebron has really never gotten a chance to play with a great passer/playmaker which is unfortunate. Obviously there was nobody notable in his first Cleveland stint, and while Wade (before age and injuries started hitting) was great at leveraging his gravity as a scorer to set up teammates and was a sneaky good lob passer, he wasn't the kind of guy who was going to be diming up cutters all the time. During his second Cleveland stint Kyrie was obviously not that guy either. As terrible as Westbrook was last season overall he might be the best guy he's ever played with in terms of enabling his off ball game.

LBJ and old Deron Williams had excellent chemistry. Obviously he didn't play as many MPG with LBJ as RW, but per possession he was the best imo.

125.1 ORtg throughout the 2017 playoffs with this duo on court, 67.4% TS

[Heej]

Lebron has really never gotten a chance to play with a great passer/playmaker which is unfortunate. Obviously there was nobody notable in his first Cleveland stint, and while Wade (before age and injuries started hitting) was great at leveraging his gravity as a scorer to set up teammates and was a sneaky good lob passer, he wasn't the kind of guy who was going to be diming up cutters all the time. During his second Cleveland stint Kyrie was obviously not that guy either. As terrible as Westbrook was last season overall he might be the best guy he's ever played with in terms of enabling his off ball game.

LBJ and old Deron Williams had excellent chemistry. Obviously he didn't play as many MPG with LBJ as RW, but per possession he was the best imo.

Lol don't forget he made old Jose Calderon look good as a PG. Which I'm not gonna lie, Calderon was one of the purest PGs of his generation lol. Great feel for the game

[The High Cyde]

This team is going to need him to score to have a shot every night if the roster doesn’t improve. I think he’ll average around 25-26ppg, 7 rebounds, 8 assists, give or take a couple from the last two.