RealGM

Jesus Christ, is the MJ cult now pushing their dumb narratives in here as well? I thought that was reserved for that stupid GB thread where they describe MJ as an athletic Larry Bird...

It's glaringly obvious that too many of them have never seen MJ play and are now trying to rewrite history as if he was the perfect player and people manager.

Did I seriously read that LeBron fans get dominated by Jordan fans on forums? And that this is an argument for why Jordan > LeBron? HAHAHAHAHAHA

Also some of the guys in this thread need to pull it back - Jordan isn't just KD on the Warriors, wtf. Vastly superior playmaker, lower ceiling as a defender but much more consistent. Not even in the same galaxy.

kayess wrote:Did I seriously read that LeBron fans get dominated by Jordan fans on forums? And that this is an argument for why Jordan > LeBron? HAHAHAHAHAHA

Also some of the guys in this thread need to pull it back - Jordan isn't just KD on the Warriors, wtf. Vastly superior playmaker, lower ceiling as a defender but much more consistent. Not even in the same galaxy.

I think that was just a tongue in cheek joke tbh

falcolombardi wrote:

kayess wrote:Did I seriously read that LeBron fans get dominated by Jordan fans on forums? And that this is an argument for why Jordan > LeBron? HAHAHAHAHAHA

Also some of the guys in this thread need to pull it back - Jordan isn't just KD on the Warriors, wtf. Vastly superior playmaker, lower ceiling as a defender but much more consistent. Not even in the same galaxy.

I think that was just a tongue in cheek joke tbh

The LeBron vs. Jordan fans? Or the Jordan KD on the Warriors?

If the latter: it was Heej, so I suppose? Jordan's luck definitely gets underrated though. LeBron's luck by comparison - the Game 6 three, Draymond suspension/Bogut injury, etc., pales in comparison to what Jordan enjoyed.

kayess wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:

kayess wrote:Did I seriously read that LeBron fans get dominated by Jordan fans on forums? And that this is an argument for why Jordan > LeBron? HAHAHAHAHAHA

Also some of the guys in this thread need to pull it back - Jordan isn't just KD on the Warriors, wtf. Vastly superior playmaker, lower ceiling as a defender but much more consistent. Not even in the same galaxy.

I think that was just a tongue in cheek joke tbh

The LeBron vs. Jordan fans? Or the Jordan KD on the Warriors?

If the latter: it was Heej, so I suppose? Jordan's luck definitely gets underrated though. LeBron's luck by comparison - the Game 6 three, Draymond suspension/Bogut injury, etc., pales in comparison to what Jordan enjoyed.

If you were a player and had to choose between consistent teammates, FOs and coaching staff vs the occasional shot a player made, what would you pick as preferred “luck”?

kayess wrote:Did I seriously read that LeBron fans get dominated by Jordan fans on forums? And that this is an argument for why Jordan > LeBron? HAHAHAHAHAHA

Also some of the guys in this thread need to pull it back - Jordan isn't just KD on the Warriors, wtf. Vastly superior playmaker, lower ceiling as a defender but much more consistent. Not even in the same galaxy.

Eh obviously there's differences and Jordan's just plain better. But sim his career 100 times and 95 times out of 100 his career probably ends up worse than what it was lol. Dude just had an insane amount of good fortune for the 90s portion of his career as far as coaching, teammates, front office, opponent quality and health; refereeing, etc.

To me he's very similar to KD on the Warriors in that he was given the most optimal situation to thrive in as an individual player and as a leader. Obviously he was better than KD at both, but no shot he wins 6 in a row if him and Clyde Drexler switched places lol. It would've been over for him the second his Ralph Sampson got injured and the Blazers were playing from behind on the draft board trying to outperform their draft slot while Jordan drags their team further and further away from high lottery picks every year. Kinda like how LeBron got screwed by Carlos Boozer hustling a blind man and the Cavs were never able to make up that talent deficit in the draft once Bron got it going.

Out of all the things people mention, they never mention MJ lucking into the best coaching staff and front office of his era. Along with Pippen's agent being a moron and letting him get absolutely fleeced on contract negotiations so that they could afford more talent. Another uncanny similarity to what KD had with with Steph being on an outlier of a bad contract due to uncanny early career injury history lmao.

Mazter wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:That whole run was just uncharted territory, we really didnt know where the ceiling of that lebron was offensively speaking

After last season I think that his whole scoring career is like uncharted territory. I mean, he not only just averaged 30+ at age 37, he also did it with a TS% of 60+. Here is a list with all players who averaged more than 15ppg at age 37 (I added Jordan at 35 just for extra reference because he won a scoring title that year), and the difference with their career ppg and career TS% before that season:

Code: Select all

Player's          Pts    PPG    TS%
Name              Avg    Diff   Diff
-------------------------------------
LeBron            30.3   +3.3   +3.3%
Jordan (age 35)   28.7   -3.0   -5.1%
Malone            23.2   -2.8   -1.1%
Kareem            22.0   -4.9   +3.5%
Dirk              18.3   -3.9   -2.6%
Wilkins           18.2   -7.6   -2.1%
Kobe              17.6   -7.8   -8.4%
Havlicek          16.1   -5.0   +0.3%
Duncan            15.1   -5.1   -1.7%
Ewing             15.0   -8.3   -4.2%


Literally no one came close to their career average at that point, and then LeBron exceeded his by 3.3 ppg. The only logical explanation for LeBron is that he never fully unlocked his scoring potential. It's not unreasonable to think he could have averaged 33+ for his career if he had acted like a so called "real scorer".

Don't you think some of this is due to him playing in gimmicky no defense lineups with him at Center? Feel like we've had this discussion in here before but I forget what the points against that take were

Heej wrote:

Mazter wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:That whole run was just uncharted territory, we really didnt know where the ceiling of that lebron was offensively speaking

After last season I think that his whole scoring career is like uncharted territory. I mean, he not only just averaged 30+ at age 37, he also did it with a TS% of 60+. Here is a list with all players who averaged more than 15ppg at age 37 (I added Jordan at 35 just for extra reference because he won a scoring title that year), and the difference with their career ppg and career TS% before that season:

Code: Select all

Player's          Pts    PPG    TS%
Name              Avg    Diff   Diff
-------------------------------------
LeBron            30.3   +3.3   +3.3%
Jordan (age 35)   28.7   -3.0   -5.1%
Malone            23.2   -2.8   -1.1%
Kareem            22.0   -4.9   +3.5%
Dirk              18.3   -3.9   -2.6%
Wilkins           18.2   -7.6   -2.1%
Kobe              17.6   -7.8   -8.4%
Havlicek          16.1   -5.0   +0.3%
Duncan            15.1   -5.1   -1.7%
Ewing             15.0   -8.3   -4.2%


Literally no one came close to their career average at that point, and then LeBron exceeded his by 3.3 ppg. The only logical explanation for LeBron is that he never fully unlocked his scoring potential. It's not unreasonable to think he could have averaged 33+ for his career if he had acted like a so called "real scorer".

Don't you think some of this is due to him playing in gimmicky no defense lineups with him at Center? Feel like we've had this discussion in here before but I forget what the points against that take were

The gimmickyness of a lebron at center offense was ruined by having a no-shooter at the perimetet with westbrook/tucket

It had all of the defensive weaknesses of a no center lineup but didnt truly have the spacing offensive advantages of them

Heej wrote:

Mazter wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:That whole run was just uncharted territory, we really didnt know where the ceiling of that lebron was offensively speaking

After last season I think that his whole scoring career is like uncharted territory. I mean, he not only just averaged 30+ at age 37, he also did it with a TS% of 60+. Here is a list with all players who averaged more than 15ppg at age 37 (I added Jordan at 35 just for extra reference because he won a scoring title that year), and the difference with their career ppg and career TS% before that season:

Code: Select all

Player's          Pts    PPG    TS%
Name              Avg    Diff   Diff
-------------------------------------
LeBron            30.3   +3.3   +3.3%
Jordan (age 35)   28.7   -3.0   -5.1%
Malone            23.2   -2.8   -1.1%
Kareem            22.0   -4.9   +3.5%
Dirk              18.3   -3.9   -2.6%
Wilkins           18.2   -7.6   -2.1%
Kobe              17.6   -7.8   -8.4%
Havlicek          16.1   -5.0   +0.3%
Duncan            15.1   -5.1   -1.7%
Ewing             15.0   -8.3   -4.2%


Literally no one came close to their career average at that point, and then LeBron exceeded his by 3.3 ppg. The only logical explanation for LeBron is that he never fully unlocked his scoring potential. It's not unreasonable to think he could have averaged 33+ for his career if he had acted like a so called "real scorer".

Don't you think some of this is due to him playing in gimmicky no defense lineups with him at Center? Feel like we've had this discussion in here before but I forget what the points against that take were

Another thinfh he benefits from is that all the seasons he didnt play compared to bron are almost seen as a plus for him and a negatice for lebron

Jordan was not gonna win rings 82-84 if he came out of highschool to the league, he was most likely not gonna be beating the spurs in 99 if he didnt retire and for all we know he may not have won the 94-95 rings with the tired bulls roster

So he preserved his career averages more neatly and benefits from "what if he also won 94,95,99 too"

2020 lebron and 98 jordan were the same age, if jordan plays ik 99 and bulls older roster struggles with injuries in a condensed season (kinda like 2021) and they lose or get wrecked by spurs it would be seen as the end of jordan dinasty by ascending new western powerhouses as shaq lakers and duncan spurs

That he retired after winning (twice) gives the mysticism that he allowed other teams to win so he benefits from those seasons as if he had actually played them

Ben taylor actually made this analogy between 94 not existent jordan season and lebron 2011 season

The former gives a boost to jordan legacy despite literally being retired, the latter is a negative for lebron even though he helpes a team to a finals run

Heej wrote:

kayess wrote:Did I seriously read that LeBron fans get dominated by Jordan fans on forums? And that this is an argument for why Jordan > LeBron? HAHAHAHAHAHA

Also some of the guys in this thread need to pull it back - Jordan isn't just KD on the Warriors, wtf. Vastly superior playmaker, lower ceiling as a defender but much more consistent. Not even in the same galaxy.

Eh obviously there's differences and Jordan's just plain better. But sim his career 100 times and 95 times out of 100 his career probably ends up worse than what it was lol. Dude just had an insane amount of good fortune for the 90s portion of his career as far as coaching, teammates, front office, opponent quality and health; refereeing, etc.

To me he's very similar to KD on the Warriors in that he was given the most optimal situation to thrive in as an individual player and as a leader. Obviously he was better than KD at both, but no shot he wins 6 in a row if him and Clyde Drexler switched places lol. It would've been over for him the second his Ralph Sampson got injured and the Blazers were playing from behind on the draft board trying to outperform their draft slot while Jordan drags their team further and further away from high lottery picks every year. Kinda like how LeBron got screwed by Carlos Boozer hustling a blind man and the Cavs were never able to make up that talent deficit in the draft once Bron got it going.

Out of all the things people mention, they never mention MJ lucking into the best coaching staff and front office of his era. Along with Pippen's agent being a moron and letting him get absolutely fleeced on contract negotiations so that they could afford more talent. Another uncanny similarity to what KD had with with Steph being on an outlier of a bad contract due to uncanny early career injury history lmao.

One of my favorite what ifs ever is cleveland drafting iguodala in 2005 and maybe keeping boozer after 2004. It would be a poor man version of pippen and grant which i suspect would be all lebron needed to win with the cavs

Getting a iguodala steal Would be oddly similar to bulls getting pippen like they did (althoigh pippen is a easily better player)

falcolombardi wrote:

Heej wrote:

Mazter wrote:After last season I think that his whole scoring career is like uncharted territory. I mean, he not only just averaged 30+ at age 37, he also did it with a TS% of 60+. Here is a list with all players who averaged more than 15ppg at age 37 (I added Jordan at 35 just for extra reference because he won a scoring title that year), and the difference with their career ppg and career TS% before that season:

Code: Select all

Player's          Pts    PPG    TS%
Name              Avg    Diff   Diff
-------------------------------------
LeBron            30.3   +3.3   +3.3%
Jordan (age 35)   28.7   -3.0   -5.1%
Malone            23.2   -2.8   -1.1%
Kareem            22.0   -4.9   +3.5%
Dirk              18.3   -3.9   -2.6%
Wilkins           18.2   -7.6   -2.1%
Kobe              17.6   -7.8   -8.4%
Havlicek          16.1   -5.0   +0.3%
Duncan            15.1   -5.1   -1.7%
Ewing             15.0   -8.3   -4.2%


Literally no one came close to their career average at that point, and then LeBron exceeded his by 3.3 ppg. The only logical explanation for LeBron is that he never fully unlocked his scoring potential. It's not unreasonable to think he could have averaged 33+ for his career if he had acted like a so called "real scorer".

Don't you think some of this is due to him playing in gimmicky no defense lineups with him at Center? Feel like we've had this discussion in here before but I forget what the points against that take were

The gimmickyness of a lebron at center offense was ruined by having a no-shooter at the perimetet with westbrook/tucket

It had all of the defensive weaknesses of a no center lineup but didnt truly have the spacing offensive advantages of them

I would say era has more to do with it than anything, it's significantly easier to score now per possession in the half-court than it ever has been. Lebron's incredible but I don't think he's that much of an outlier. With that being said, his scoring last season was impressive.

JVL wrote:Jesus Christ, is the MJ cult now pushing their dumb narratives in here as well? I thought that was reserved for that stupid GB thread where they describe MJ as an athletic Larry Bird...

It's glaringly obvious that too many of them have never seen MJ play and are now trying to rewrite history as if he was the perfect player and people manager.

@Heej mentioned it and he’s right—the hardest core Jordanaires are a group of millennials from about age 27 to 34 who never even really saw him play in his prime but are the staunchest defenders of everything Jordan.

homecourtloss wrote:

JVL wrote:Jesus Christ, is the MJ cult now pushing their dumb narratives in here as well? I thought that was reserved for that stupid GB thread where they describe MJ as an athletic Larry Bird...

It's glaringly obvious that too many of them have never seen MJ play and are now trying to rewrite history as if he was the perfect player and people manager.

@Heej mentioned it and he’s right—the hardest core Jordanaires are a group of millennials from about age 27 to 34 who never even really saw him play in his prime but are the staunchest defenders of everything Jordan.

They don't even care about Jordan, they just hate LeBron. Almost reminds me of how KD doesn't have any actual fans anymore, just LeBron haters using him as some sort of mascot.

Mazter wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:That whole run was just uncharted territory, we really didnt know where the ceiling of that lebron was offensively speaking

After last season I think that his whole scoring career is like uncharted territory. I mean, he not only just averaged 30+ at age 37, he also did it with a TS% of 60+. Here is a list with all players who averaged more than 15ppg at age 37 (I added Jordan at 35 just for extra reference because he won a scoring title that year), and the difference with their career ppg and career TS% before that season:

Code: Select all

Player's          Pts    PPG    TS%
Name              Avg    Diff   Diff
-------------------------------------
LeBron            30.3   +3.3   +3.3%
Jordan (age 35)   28.7   -3.0   -5.1%
Malone            23.2   -2.8   -1.1%
Kareem            22.0   -4.9   +3.5%
Dirk              18.3   -3.9   -2.6%
Wilkins           18.2   -7.6   -2.1%
Kobe              17.6   -7.8   -8.4%
Havlicek          16.1   -5.0   +0.3%
Duncan            15.1   -5.1   -1.7%
Ewing             15.0   -8.3   -4.2%


Literally no one came close to their career average at that point, and then LeBron exceeded his by 3.3 ppg. The only logical explanation for LeBron is that he never fully unlocked his scoring potential. It's not unreasonable to think he could have averaged 33+ for his career if he had acted like a so called "real scorer".

Not that it matters that much, and comparisons versus self on what I think are raw TS% numbers will depend on the arc of league average trends (and ditto for pace regarding ppg).

fwiw, when talking about "literally no one" you are starting with a very small pool. And that 15ppg threshold, whilst natural enough in a base-10 system ... Parish at 37 averaged 14.9 ppg (8 total points short of a legit 15ppg average, or 4 short if rounding to one dp). His 24.1 points per 75 possessions is a little down on his total career average (24.6) and moreso to his average up to the start of that season (25.6). Still he's at an impressive .637 TS% (a career high) versus .571 career or .574 career up to the start of that season. It's also a TS+ high (119, from 115 in '88 and '90, 107 for full career) and TS add high (+194.4, from 170.4 in '89).

None of which is meant to deny LeBron's remarkable longevity of quality, which to my mind gives him a very, very strong claim to "GOAT" status. Still I do think in terms of holding a high career standard to a late point, not least in this scoring aspect. 37 rather than 36 too cuts off some solid if non-elite years (Reggie and Artis not at the peak of their powers, but still each managing a greater than 200 TS add [edit: this previously said TS+] season).

Fwiw I think this also misses Johnny Green (whom I think should qualify, unless I'm missing something). 16.7ppg at 37. League leading .607 TS%. TS% arguably a career best (depending on if one counts his 1245 minute final season), ppg a career 2nd best. 121 TS+, 219.9 TS add. As before league contexts can affect this type of thing.

MartinToVaught wrote:

homecourtloss wrote:

JVL wrote:Jesus Christ, is the MJ cult now pushing their dumb narratives in here as well? I thought that was reserved for that stupid GB thread where they describe MJ as an athletic Larry Bird...

It's glaringly obvious that too many of them have never seen MJ play and are now trying to rewrite history as if he was the perfect player and people manager.

@Heej mentioned it and he’s right—the hardest core Jordanaires are a group of millennials from about age 27 to 34 who never even really saw him play in his prime but are the staunchest defenders of everything Jordan.

They don't even care about Jordan, they just hate LeBron. Almost reminds me of how KD doesn't have any actual fans anymore, just LeBron haters using him as some sort of mascot.

Something else Jordan never had to deal with: massive, spiteful fanbases of rival perimeter players doing everything they can to undermine him and invent non-existent holes in his game to criticize.

Just about every anti-LeBron narrative over the years was invented and pushed by Jordan/Kobe/KD/Curry fans. Isn't clutch, has no bag/isn't skilled, isn't a winner, doesn't play defense, is a bad teammate and leader, isn't a good ceiling raiser, etc. etc.

Bigs have never been latched onto like that. 90s perimeter talent was so dogwater that there weren't any alternatives to the Jordan hype train. There are no devout Clyde Drexler or Reggie Miller supporters. If you were an NBA fan in that era you either followed your local team or you were a Jordan fan.

letskissbro wrote:

MartinToVaught wrote:

homecourtloss wrote:
@Heej mentioned it and he’s right—the hardest core Jordanaires are a group of millennials from about age 27 to 34 who never even really saw him play in his prime but are the staunchest defenders of everything Jordan.

They don't even care about Jordan, they just hate LeBron. Almost reminds me of how KD doesn't have any actual fans anymore, just LeBron haters using him as some sort of mascot.

Something else Jordan never had to deal with: massive, spiteful fanbases of rival perimeter players doing everything they can to undermine him and invent non-existent holes in his game to criticize.

Just about every anti-LeBron narrative over the years was invented and pushed by Jordan/Kobe/KD/Curry fans. Isn't clutch, has no bag/isn't skilled, isn't a winner, doesn't play defense, is a bad teammate and leader, isn't a good ceiling raiser, etc. etc.

Bigs have never been latched onto like that. 90s perimeter talent was so dogwater that there weren't any alternatives to the Jordan hype train. There are no devout Clyde Drexler or Reggie Miller supporters. If you were an NBA fan in that era you either followed your local team or you were a Jordan fan.

This is unfair to drexler and miller i think

They were legitemwly excellent players,miller was undervalued in particular at his time

Stalwart wrote:

dcstanley wrote:

What a performance

The problem with that performance is that he gave up at the end. At the 2:20 mark he breaks down due to frustration and a sense of hopeless. He then deflates the entire team with his defeated body language. Something MJ would never have done.

...

There is 5 minutes left and its a tied game. I never understood why everyone acted like JR lost the game.

exactly, MJ would have put up a cool 57/33/18, hit the game winner in regulation, asked the refs to waive it off so they could play overtime, then dominated OT while pleasuring several fans in the front row while their spouses cheered him on, all before hitting the final game winner at the end of OT. all lebron did was put up 51/8/8 against the #1 defense in the playoffs. as we can see from comparing the two situations, lebron did not live up to the jordan standard.

or MJ would have just got swept like he usually did when overmatched.

falcolombardi wrote:

letskissbro wrote:

MartinToVaught wrote:They don't even care about Jordan, they just hate LeBron. Almost reminds me of how KD doesn't have any actual fans anymore, just LeBron haters using him as some sort of mascot.

Something else Jordan never had to deal with: massive, spiteful fanbases of rival perimeter players doing everything they can to undermine him and invent non-existent holes in his game to criticize.

Just about every anti-LeBron narrative over the years was invented and pushed by Jordan/Kobe/KD/Curry fans. Isn't clutch, has no bag/isn't skilled, isn't a winner, doesn't play defense, is a bad teammate and leader, isn't a good ceiling raiser, etc. etc.

Bigs have never been latched onto like that. 90s perimeter talent was so dogwater that there weren't any alternatives to the Jordan hype train. There are no devout Clyde Drexler or Reggie Miller supporters. If you were an NBA fan in that era you either followed your local team or you were a Jordan fan.

This is unfair to drexler and miller i think

They were legitemwly excellent players,miller was undervalued in particular at his time

yeah, but there were no drexler stans doing everything they could to tear down MJ. oh, ha, his team won 55 without him. i thought they were just bums. oh, nick anderson stole the ball from him. the guy who missed 4 ft's and MJ is even less clutch than him? needs pippen and rodman and phil jackson to beat everybody? etcetera, etcetera.

kayess wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:

kayess wrote:Did I seriously read that LeBron fans get dominated by Jordan fans on forums? And that this is an argument for why Jordan > LeBron? HAHAHAHAHAHA

Also some of the guys in this thread need to pull it back - Jordan isn't just KD on the Warriors, wtf. Vastly superior playmaker, lower ceiling as a defender but much more consistent. Not even in the same galaxy.

I think that was just a tongue in cheek joke tbh

The LeBron vs. Jordan fans? Or the Jordan KD on the Warriors?

If the latter: it was Heej, so I suppose? Jordan's luck definitely gets underrated though. LeBron's luck by comparison - the Game 6 three, Draymond suspension/Bogut injury, etc., pales in comparison to what Jordan enjoyed.

Do you think LeBron has been "unlucky"?

- Flipped teams three times for the single reason of improving his chances to win a title
- Picked his star team mates, role players and coaches to an extent of teaming up with another 1st team all NBA player, something that happens once every 20 years and never before by player collusion
- Preferrable treatment / own set of rules throughout his entire career (literally noone else in the league can confront the officials and not get T'd up as he does every game)
- Never ran into any serious injury, compared to his contemporaries he got extremely lucky in that regard

I honestly dont think "bad luck" can be used to explain his comparably poor result in terms of titles. Dont think you can get more freedom to form your situation at will, or more help from team, league and media. I cant think of any other player of his generation to have a remotely comparable situation.

f4p wrote:

Stalwart wrote:

dcstanley wrote:

What a performance

The problem with that performance is that he gave up at the end. At the 2:20 mark he breaks down due to frustration and a sense of hopeless. He then deflates the entire team with his defeated body language. Something MJ would never have done.

...

There is 5 minutes left and its a tied game. I never understood why everyone acted like JR lost the game.

exactly, MJ would have put up a cool 57/33/18, hit the game winner in regulation, asked the refs to waive it off so they could play overtime, then dominated OT while pleasuring several fans in the front row while their spouses cheered him on, all before hitting the final game winner at the end of OT. all lebron did was put up 51/8/8 against the #1 defense in the playoffs. as we can see from comparing the two situations, lebron did not live up to the jordan standard.

or MJ would have just got swept like he usually did when overmatched.

Yea the mythologizing of MJ is probably what's most annoying. I still think highly of MJ generally, but he did have limitations to his game that often get glossed over.

I don't have an issue with people saying he's the GOAT, but people just seem to think MJ had this magic elixir that made him unbeatable no matter what, which obviously isn't true. And in terms of narrative I think it's hard to have written it better than what happened. As Heej said, if you sim his career a thousand times this is probably in the 85th percentile+ in terms of how well his career turned out in terms of results/narrative.