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this idea came from the somewhat heated debate on the nash vs paul thread where a lot of the discussion focused on the leadership/personality of chris paul and how it affected his teams

what players currently or historically do you think have a undeserved bad reputation as divas/bad leaders/ dirty pkayers/low effort players etc ?

alternatively, do you think there are players who would deserve more criticism than they actually get over leadership/attitude/etc issues? maybe players whose talent/rings/charisma obscures these problems?

Harden playoff choker

Jazz fans generally are not big fans of AK47 at all think he got the big contract and basically quit.

I'm pretty high on him, had some injury issues after the money, but overall still played well for us for a long time.

I'd say Vince Carter gets a lot of crap from people over his exit from Toronto

whereas nowadays, we don't blink an eye about stars wanting out of markets that absolutely fail their stars like Toronto did with VC, in fact I'd say its generally encouraged after a few years

dude went on to play for like 16 more years and 7 teams and was a great teammate and leader by all accounts

Adrian Dantley, way too bad reputation for what he accomplished.

Kyrie Irving and Westbrook. Kyrie is not a superstar, far from it but be he is definitely talented and in the right scenario can be a very good 2nd option as shown next to Lebron. Westbrook’s reputation has gown down the toilet since his mvp year. He was league mvp and a top 5 player for at least a few years, and these days people question whether he was ever even a top 10 player or as good as Billups. As if KD+Billups win any titles lol.

70sFan wrote:Adrian Dantley, way too bad reputation for what he accomplished.

Wasn't Dantley an extremely unpleasant A-hole to be around?

Or is it Rick Barry I'm thinking of?

Jaivl wrote:Harden playoff choker

Harden 112% deserves this reputation. There was like a 5 year period where he was basically guaranteed to spot the other team at least one game per playoff run with utter **** play.

McBubbles wrote:

70sFan wrote:Adrian Dantley, way too bad reputation for what he accomplished.

Wasn't Dantley and extremely unpleasant **** to be around?

Or is it Rick Barry I'm thinking of?

The story goes that Dantley tried to usurp leadership of the Pistons from Isiah causing friction within the locker room and hurting the chemistry on the court. And it doesn't help that the team won back to back the year after he left. That gave Dantley the reputation of being a selfish teammate and not a winning player.

Going by the interviews players have done over the years it seems there is some truth to this but it is also overblown.

McBubbles wrote:

70sFan wrote:Adrian Dantley, way too bad reputation for what he accomplished.

Wasn't Dantley and extremely unpleasant **** to be around?

Or is it Rick Barry I'm thinking of?

It was probably about Barry, Dantley had mixed reputation but most of his teammates praised him for his personality and hard working attitude.

McBubbles wrote:

Jaivl wrote:Harden playoff choker

Harden 112% deserves this reputation. There was like a 5 year period where he was basically guaranteed to spot the other team at least one game per playoff run with utter **** play.

When exactly? He disappointed in 2016 and 2017, but also outplayed Curry and Durant in 2019, and held his own against LeBron and Davis in 2020. He seems to have a worse dropoff than most stars, but far from a "choker".

To me its KD for the most part of his career, and especially since he decided to join the Warriors. He basically copied LeBrons approach, and while both got a lot of backlash for it, LeBron still hs a lot of people cheering for him where KD has really been the villain ever since. Even when he moved on and decided to play on a non-superteam. To me he is the most complete two way player in this league, a warrior and absolute killer in the post season (we've seen his historic carry job against the later champions last playoffs). Someone who works hard on both ends, has his own style of leading his team - not by posing for cameras and acting while secretly throwing his guys under the bus but mostly by leading by example (remember when he went to play hurt for the Warriors, conciously risking and finally receiving serious injury?). He also has vastly improved as a playmaker and passer. Yet noone talks about him, its all Giannis-Embiid-Joker. Still, i'm sure if you asked the players who'd be the #1 pick if they had to win a game, they would pick KD.

LesGrossman wrote:Someone who works hard on both ends, has his own style of leading his team - not by posing for cameras and acting while secretly throwing his guys under the bus

Is that KD? As in "Kevin Durant"?

Blake Griffin was one of the hardest-working players in the league in his prime and his career was only derailed by injuries, but casual fans still think of him as a scrub who could only dunk because of Charles Barkley's ignorant rants about him early on in his career.

LesGrossman wrote:He basically copied LeBrons approach, and while both got a lot of backlash for it

Feel free to point out where LeBron joined the 73-win team he had just choked and purposefully quit against in the playoffs.

KD barely got a fraction of the backlash for the weakest, most anti-competitive move in sports history that LeBron gets every time he misses a shot.

Even when he moved on and decided to play on a non-superteam.

Durant hasn't played on a non-superteam since the Thunder were still the Sonics.

MartinToVaught wrote:KD barely got a fraction of the backlash for the weakest, most anti-competitive move in sports history that LeBron gets every time he misses a shot.

I will never understand the endless complaining about player-based determinism in basketball. Like, if they'd drafted and traded for those players, no one would say anything, so what difference does it makes? Fans like great teams, and only great teams author dynasties. Are people just bitter because their team, which wasn't going to win before, has a villain to focus on now? Confuses me endlessly, it's just so unnecessary.

tsherkin wrote:

MartinToVaught wrote:KD barely got a fraction of the backlash for the weakest, most anti-competitive move in sports history that LeBron gets every time he misses a shot.

I will never understand the endless complaining about player-based determinism in basketball. Like, if they'd drafted and traded for those players, no one would say anything, so what difference does it makes? Fans like great teams, and only great teams author dynasties. Are people just bitter because their team, which wasn't going to win before, has a villain to focus on now? Confuses me endlessly, it's just so unnecessary.

You are referring to the complains about KD's decisions here, right?

LesGrossman wrote:You are referring to the complains about KD's decisions here, right?

KD and Lebron both, yes. It's just people whinging that it didn't happen for their team. The goal is to have the best team possible.

tsherkin wrote:

LesGrossman wrote:You are referring to the complains about KD's decisions here, right?

KD and Lebron both, yes. It's just people whinging that it didn't happen for their team. The goal is to have the best team possible.

I'm not a fan of superteams (defined as superstar players negotiating to join the same team) because it ruins the integrity of the league. The regular season becomes boring, the playoffs predictable, the titles meaningless. LeBron's Miami, Cleveland and Lakers teams were so overpowered that the titles were predicable. Same with Warriors + the best player in the League in KD. I dont think we as fans should encourage that. I feel like Dirks superhuman title effort, the Spurs winning as a group of equals, Kawhi joining the Raptors and winning, Giannis sticking with this team and succeeding where superteam mercenaries failed, those campaigns are simply a lot more desirable and admirable. For me personally, the whole ring counting thing is nonsense and i value Dirks ring higher than Brons four, and KD's two.

That being said, i believe they all should be treated the same. It just makes zero sense to rant about KD and his move to the warriors while ignoring how LeBron started the whole movement, and as self declared "chosen one" and "GOAT", quit on his home town team and joined tow other superstars. Theres no rationale behind excusing one while whining about the other.

Kristaps Porzingis.

Even at his worst I never thought he was a bad contract. His off the court stuff and fit with Luka was overblown.