Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
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Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
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Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
I think Kobe gets a little underrated.
The reason why I don't put him in the same convo with the likes of Jordan is that a 44% FG clip is IMO too low to be in the Elite category of the top 10 whom....(Aside from Bill) all were around the 50% clip
MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem, Bird, Duncan, Magic, Magic and even guys like Oscar, West were right there too. This why for me Kobe is 11th of all time and just misses the top 10. But it's not to say he isn't right there. Going onto win 2 more rings as the best player without Shaq was huge for his legacy which to some degree overcomes his lack of efficiency compared to the top 10 all time greats.
The length of his prime for which he put in the work deserves for him to be comfortably top 15, and around the top 10 even.
I wouldn't argue if you had in around 8-10 along with Bird, Duncan and Hakeem but moving into that borderline top 5. I have Oscar right on his tail, but still Kobe ahead.
The reason why I don't put him in the same convo with the likes of Jordan is that a 44% FG clip is IMO too low to be in the Elite category of the top 10 whom....(Aside from Bill) all were around the 50% clip
MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem, Bird, Duncan, Magic, Magic and even guys like Oscar, West were right there too. This why for me Kobe is 11th of all time and just misses the top 10. But it's not to say he isn't right there. Going onto win 2 more rings as the best player without Shaq was huge for his legacy which to some degree overcomes his lack of efficiency compared to the top 10 all time greats.
The length of his prime for which he put in the work deserves for him to be comfortably top 15, and around the top 10 even.
I wouldn't argue if you had in around 8-10 along with Bird, Duncan and Hakeem but moving into that borderline top 5. I have Oscar right on his tail, but still Kobe ahead.
Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
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Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
For the record I have him 11th of all time, and his top 9/10 seasons as a lock top 15. KD and Curry can both surpass him soon in terms of longevity of his prime.
Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
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Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
I have him #11 above Bird below Magic, KG. A top 15 prime sounds alright.
This place is a cesspool of mindless ineptitude, mental decrepitude, and intellectual lassitude. I refuse to be sucked any deeper into this whirlpool of groupthink sewage. My opinions have been expressed. I'm going to go take a shower.
Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
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Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
mdonnelly1989 wrote:I think Kobe gets a little underrated.
The reason why I don't put him in the same convo with the likes of Jordan is that a 44% FG clip is IMO too low to be in the Elite category of the top 10 whom....(Aside from Bill) [b]all were around the 50% clip
I'm with you on the difference between MJ and Kobe as scorers, however comma.
FG% isn't maybe the best way to evaluate the two when Kobe was a 4.1 3PA/g player on his career and Jordan 1.7 (and that only because of the pulled-in line years).
The number you want was 47.9%, which was Kobe's 2FG, vs. Jordan's 51.0%, and then to look at all the other sundry offensive numbers and what have you. Jordan sits where he sits in comparisons for a reason. That Kobe is even mentioned relative MJ is a staggering tribute to his incredible career. Kobe actually drew fouls more effectively, but he also typically shot less. 01-15, Kobe averaged 21.5 FGA/g to MJ's 22.9, so Jordan's slightly lower draw rate (which also includes his Wizard years) isn't super surprising. That said, their usage is separate by like 0.4%, so it matters only so much. It's like 28.8 to 30.7 FGA100. Kobe's average TS+ in that stretch was 102.8. Jordan's was 106 on his career WITH the Washington years, and he peaked a lot higher. Kobe topped out at 107, which he hit 5 times in that stretch and 1 other time in his career (99 lockout season). Jordan had 4 years of 110+, a 3-year run of 114-113-113, and 3 other years at 107-109. So you get the picture that he was separating from his peers in terms of scoring efficiency more effectively than was Kobe.
That shouldn't surprise anyone, since Kobe had an affinity for some fairly foolish shots at times. It mattered only so much, of course, but Jordan was the consumate "get to his spots and burn you from where he wanted to go" kind of player, whereas Kobe was more inclined to shoot himself into/out of rhythm. And because he leveraged the three more regularly, he could get INCENDIARY hot on you from time to time. Like with the 81-point game
Anyway, you get the idea. Kobe was amazing. Jordan was Jordan. Kobe does get the shaft a bunch in a lot of comparisons because his first couple of titles were with Shaq, but he proved that he could do it without Diesel well enough, even with a repeat. He's up there, no question. One of the greatest to lace 'em up.
Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
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Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
I'm significantly lower on Kobe's top-10 years being a lock for top-15. If anything, his top-10 years are a lock outside of the top-15 while it's narratives, accolades and popularity which routinely cement him not just inside the top-15 but inside the top-12.
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Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
mdonnelly1989 wrote:I think Kobe gets a little underrated.
The reason why I don't put him in the same convo with the likes of Jordan is that a 44% FG clip is IMO too low to be in the Elite category of the top 10 whom....(Aside from Bill) all were around the 50% clip
MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem, Bird, Duncan, Magic, Magic and even guys like Oscar, West were right there too. This why for me Kobe is 11th of all time and just misses the top 10. But it's not to say he isn't right there. Going onto win 2 more rings as the best player without Shaq was huge for his legacy which to some degree overcomes his lack of efficiency compared to the top 10 all time greats.
The length of his prime for which he put in the work deserves for him to be comfortably top 15, and around the top 10 even.
I wouldn't argue if you had in around 8-10 along with Bird, Duncan and Hakeem but moving into that borderline top 5. I have Oscar right on his tail, but still Kobe ahead.
I’m not gonna argue for where I place him, but wouldn’t underrated only be on this board vs in general? Most people have him closer to 5 than 10 outside of here I think
That would make him overrated based on where u have him I’d think overall then right?
Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
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Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
MyUniBroDavis wrote:mdonnelly1989 wrote:I think Kobe gets a little underrated.
The reason why I don't put him in the same convo with the likes of Jordan is that a 44% FG clip is IMO too low to be in the Elite category of the top 10 whom....(Aside from Bill) all were around the 50% clip
MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem, Bird, Duncan, Magic, Magic and even guys like Oscar, West were right there too. This why for me Kobe is 11th of all time and just misses the top 10. But it's not to say he isn't right there. Going onto win 2 more rings as the best player without Shaq was huge for his legacy which to some degree overcomes his lack of efficiency compared to the top 10 all time greats.
The length of his prime for which he put in the work deserves for him to be comfortably top 15, and around the top 10 even.
I wouldn't argue if you had in around 8-10 along with Bird, Duncan and Hakeem but moving into that borderline top 5. I have Oscar right on his tail, but still Kobe ahead.
I’m not gonna argue for where I place him, but wouldn’t underrated only be on this board vs in general? Most people have him closer to 5 than 10 outside of here I think (It would be interesting to see a Global view on this, I'd probably believe around top 5 though yeah.
That would make him overrated based on where u have him I’d think overall then right?
You are right. A lot of every day fans have him in the top 10 outside of here and even in the top 5.
Sometimes I do think his brand makes him overrated especially as a top 5. Top 10 is Okay, I still think closer to top 5 is overrated.
Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
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Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
mdonnelly1989 wrote:MyUniBroDavis wrote:mdonnelly1989 wrote:I think Kobe gets a little underrated.
The reason why I don't put him in the same convo with the likes of Jordan is that a 44% FG clip is IMO too low to be in the Elite category of the top 10 whom....(Aside from Bill) all were around the 50% clip
MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem, Bird, Duncan, Magic, Magic and even guys like Oscar, West were right there too. This why for me Kobe is 11th of all time and just misses the top 10. But it's not to say he isn't right there. Going onto win 2 more rings as the best player without Shaq was huge for his legacy which to some degree overcomes his lack of efficiency compared to the top 10 all time greats.
The length of his prime for which he put in the work deserves for him to be comfortably top 15, and around the top 10 even.
I wouldn't argue if you had in around 8-10 along with Bird, Duncan and Hakeem but moving into that borderline top 5. I have Oscar right on his tail, but still Kobe ahead.
I’m not gonna argue for where I place him, but wouldn’t underrated only be on this board vs in general? Most people have him closer to 5 than 10 outside of here I think (It would be interesting to see a Global view on this, I'd probably believe around top 5 though yeah.
That would make him overrated based on where u have him I’d think overall then right?
You are right. A lot of every day fans have him in the top 10 outside of here and even in the top 5.
Sometimes I do think his brand makes him overrated especially as a top 5. Top 10 is Okay, I still think closer to top 5 is overrated.
Top 5 is probably hard but I think it all depends on criteria
Like, I know people here go by kind of giving each season and score and seeing who has the highest sum, I remember elgee did it by like a player value for each year and a potential championships added thing, people outside of here generally value championships more period, but some might even talk about the aesthetic of how they play which is fine too
I probably have him 8-10, altho I like championships a lot so guys like Garnett and Hakeem are lower on mine than most
Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
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Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
11-13 range. I give him a bonus over others because regardless of circumstance, getting 5 rings is not an easy accomplishment and his 08-2010 run was definitely very impressive.
Kobe’s prime is considered a top 15 lock by most, so i’m not sure your opinion is different than most here.
Kobe’s prime is considered a top 15 lock by most, so i’m not sure your opinion is different than most here.
Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
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Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
Kobe is definitely in the Top 10 AFAIC and should be higher than 10th. The man graced us with an absolute viewing spectacle (for those of us who appreciate technical excellence and aesthetics anyway), while still leading his team to 5 rings... which is more than so many players who were/are great because of their height or physical/athletic ability can say.
My personal list:
1) Jordan
2) Wilt or Lebron
3) Lebron or Wilt
4) Bird
5) Kobe
6) Magic
7) Hakeem or Kareem
8) Kareem or Hakeem
9) Shaq
10) Duncan or Russell
11) Russell or Duncan
Any position between #5-9 seems right, depending on how highly you rate ability and skills. #1-4 and #10-11 are locked AFAIC, but I'm cool with shuffling the deck between #5-9.
My personal list:
1) Jordan
2) Wilt or Lebron
3) Lebron or Wilt
4) Bird
5) Kobe
6) Magic
7) Hakeem or Kareem
8) Kareem or Hakeem
9) Shaq
10) Duncan or Russell
11) Russell or Duncan
Any position between #5-9 seems right, depending on how highly you rate ability and skills. #1-4 and #10-11 are locked AFAIC, but I'm cool with shuffling the deck between #5-9.
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Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
#10 all time on my list
Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
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Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
Probably around 11-15 range, but I can see him inside top 10 depending on a criteria. I value heavily defense (which is NOT pro for him) and longevity (which IS pro for him), so he's quite high, but not as high as some have him.
I can see some of the modern players surpassing him, but they still have a long way to do so (outside of James of course).
I can see some of the modern players surpassing him, but they still have a long way to do so (outside of James of course).
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Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
How would Kobe be underrated when most people here agree that he's borderline top 10 and the ones who disagree generally have him higher than that?
I have him at #11 as well although I haven't really given my rankings much thought since the top 100 project so that could change in the future. At the highest I could see him at about 7 or 8. I think Kobe has an argument over Hakeem because of a significant difference in post-season production, while also having a big longevity advantage over Magic and Bird. Maybe you could make an argument for him over Shaq but that's already becoming a pretty hard bargain for me.
The other way around you've got a couple guys who could be argued over Kobe one way or another like Oscar, KG or Dr J but putting him outside of the top 15 would be a stretch as well imo.
I have him at #11 as well although I haven't really given my rankings much thought since the top 100 project so that could change in the future. At the highest I could see him at about 7 or 8. I think Kobe has an argument over Hakeem because of a significant difference in post-season production, while also having a big longevity advantage over Magic and Bird. Maybe you could make an argument for him over Shaq but that's already becoming a pretty hard bargain for me.
The other way around you've got a couple guys who could be argued over Kobe one way or another like Oscar, KG or Dr J but putting him outside of the top 15 would be a stretch as well imo.
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Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
Kobe was extremely overrated during his career, so it's a bit odd you call him underrated. He's widely considered top 15, but top 10 seem to be to much. Especially I can see few players that can surpass him in the next 5-10 years.
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Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
If were going by career resume and overall dominance relative to era then Kobe would fall between 6 and 10. There is no case for him to be outside of the top 10. However, there is also no case to push him into the top 5.
If you are going by overall skillset and ability across era then he easily moves into the top 5. After you remove the pre-80s guys you can argue Kobe probably into the Top 3. However, I personally don't recommend doing rankings this way. It's too subjective and inconsistent.
Under no scenario does Dr. J, Oscar, or KG move in front of him. That is unless you ignore team success altogether.
If you are going by overall skillset and ability across era then he easily moves into the top 5. After you remove the pre-80s guys you can argue Kobe probably into the Top 3. However, I personally don't recommend doing rankings this way. It's too subjective and inconsistent.
Under no scenario does Dr. J, Oscar, or KG move in front of him. That is unless you ignore team success altogether.
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Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
Stalwart wrote:If were going by career resume and overall dominance relative to era then Kobe would fall between 6 and 10. There is no case for him to be outside of the top 10. However, there is also no case to push him into the top 5.
If you are going by overall skillset and ability across era then he easily moves into the top 5. After you remove the pre-80s guys you can argue Kobe probably into the Top 3. However, I personally don't recommend doing rankings this way. It's too subjective and inconsistent.
Under no scenario does Dr. J, Oscar, or KG move in front of him. That is unless you ignore team success altogether.
Julius had almost as much team success as Kobe.
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Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
Stalwart wrote:If were going by career resume and overall dominance relative to era then Kobe would fall between 6 and 10. There is no case for him to be outside of the top 10. However, there is also no case to push him into the top 5.
If you are going by overall skillset and ability across era then he easily moves into the top 5. After you remove the pre-80s guys you can argue Kobe probably into the Top 3. However, I personally don't recommend doing rankings this way. It's too subjective and inconsistent.
Under no scenario does Dr. J, Oscar, or KG move in front of him. That is unless you ignore team success altogether.
KG and Oscar are very similar cases. Both were pretty clearly better than Kobe in the regular season but like you said they don't have a lot of post-season success. However, they did generally do well whenever they did make it there. Especially Oscar pretty much always played well in the play-offs. I personally don't have them ahead of Kobe but we're talking about players who could be argued over Kobe one way or another. KG has a higher peak (find me non-Laker fans who would take any Kobe season over KG's 04) and better longevity, the only thing he lacks is relative post-season success. Oscar also has a higher peak and his longevity is close enough that when you look at their respective eras that Oscar is actually more impressive for sticking around so long in the 60s/70s. But if you put Kobe on the 00s Timberwolves or the Royals of the 60s would he do any better?
For Dr J it depends how highly you rate the ABA, he's another guy I personally wouldn't put ahead of Kobe but he also has comparable longevity than Kobe, was better at his peak (again, if you rate the ABA) and has plenty of post-season success in his own right.
But then you also have to consider I argued Kobe ahead of Hakeem, Bird and Magic based on 1 attribute Kobe has over them despite losing out in pretty much every other category. You can't have it both ways that you can push Kobe ahead if he has one slight advantage but refuse to do the same for the players just below him.
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70sFan wrote:Stalwart wrote:If were going by career resume and overall dominance relative to era then Kobe would fall between 6 and 10. There is no case for him to be outside of the top 10. However, there is also no case to push him into the top 5.
If you are going by overall skillset and ability across era then he easily moves into the top 5. After you remove the pre-80s guys you can argue Kobe probably into the Top 3. However, I personally don't recommend doing rankings this way. It's too subjective and inconsistent.
Under no scenario does Dr. J, Oscar, or KG move in front of him. That is unless you ignore team success altogether.
Julius had almost as much team success as Kobe.
Didnt he have three titles and two of them were pre merger?
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Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
MyUniBroDavis wrote:70sFan wrote:Stalwart wrote:If were going by career resume and overall dominance relative to era then Kobe would fall between 6 and 10. There is no case for him to be outside of the top 10. However, there is also no case to push him into the top 5.
If you are going by overall skillset and ability across era then he easily moves into the top 5. After you remove the pre-80s guys you can argue Kobe probably into the Top 3. However, I personally don't recommend doing rankings this way. It's too subjective and inconsistent.
Under no scenario does Dr. J, Oscar, or KG move in front of him. That is unless you ignore team success altogether.
Julius had almost as much team success as Kobe.
Didnt he have three titles and two of them were pre merger?
Do you have Robert Horry as the best player of the modern era or do you use more than only number of titles in that case?
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Re: Kobes Top 10 seasons deserve IMO to be a lock top 15, borderline top 10
MyUniBroDavis wrote:70sFan wrote:Stalwart wrote:If were going by career resume and overall dominance relative to era then Kobe would fall between 6 and 10. There is no case for him to be outside of the top 10. However, there is also no case to push him into the top 5.
If you are going by overall skillset and ability across era then he easily moves into the top 5. After you remove the pre-80s guys you can argue Kobe probably into the Top 3. However, I personally don't recommend doing rankings this way. It's too subjective and inconsistent.
Under no scenario does Dr. J, Oscar, or KG move in front of him. That is unless you ignore team success altogether.
Julius had almost as much team success as Kobe.
Didnt he have three titles and two of them were pre merger?
Three titles and he went to 6 finals overall.