is kobe bryant a top 10 offensive player ever?

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is kobe a top 10 offensive peak?

Top 10 comfortably
16
33%
fringe top 10 case
18
38%
definetely not top 10
14
29%
 
Total votes: 48

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is kobe bryant a top 10 offensive player ever? 

Post#1 » by falcolombardi » Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:00 am

i asked this question for chris paul and the answer was overwhelmingly consensus no

what about kobe bryant?

secondary question:how high do you rank his peak overall?
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Re: is kobe bryant a top 10 offensive player ever? 

Post#2 » by 70sFan » Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:48 am

Similar to Paul, I don't think he is but he has a case.
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Re: is kobe bryant a top 10 offensive player ever? 

Post#3 » by LAL1947 » Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:55 am

70sFan wrote:Similar to Paul, I don't think he is but he has a case.

Because I read all your posts and see this all the time, it appears to me that you are on a weird Kobe-hating trip. Or maybe it's a Timmy-loving trip, as in you seek every opportunity to put Kobe down in little ways because you know he's the best player of the 2000-2010 decade but you want Duncan to be regarded as such. Kobe is one of the Top 2 Shooting Guards ever and regarded as the most skilled player on offense by his peers... and still somehow you manage to say there are 10 others better than him. How??

So let's hear it then... who's your Top 10 Offensive Players ever?

I'll just leave this lil video here... because we should probably then come back to it and ask how many of those 10 players could do something like that.



And because I was talking his 2002-03 season in another thread with your partner-in-crime, FalcoLombardi, I'm going to leave this other 50+ minute video here too. :P

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Re: is kobe bryant a top 10 offensive player ever? 

Post#4 » by Jaivl » Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:58 am

Career yeah, easily.
Prime or peak... He probably still is (he is for me) but not as much of a lock IMO.

LAL1947 wrote:Or maybe it's a Timmy-loving trip, as in you seek every opportunity to put Kobe down because you know he's the best player of the 2000-2010 decade but you want Duncan to be regarded as with that title.

Ah but, you see, both of you are wrong! 8-)
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Re: is kobe bryant a top 10 offensive player ever? 

Post#5 » by 70sFan » Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:43 am

LAL1947 wrote:Because I read all your posts and see this all the time, it appears to me that you are on a weird Kobe-hating trip.

If you read all my posts, you should know that I rarely post about Kobe here. I don't like Kobe discussions because of fans like you, who can't accept the fact that some people may respect and appreciate Kobe but not to the same degree.

Or maybe it's a Timmy-loving trip, as in you seek every opportunity to put Kobe down in little ways because you know he's the best player of the 2000-2010 decade but you want Duncan to be regarded as such.

If I believed that Kobe was better than Duncan, I would accept that. I don't like James or Jordan at all, but I accept they are better players than Duncan. Artis Gilmore might be my 2nd favorite player ever but I don't argue him over top tier centers ever.

Why do you really think it has to be something wrong with me? Have you ever thought that some of us can have reasonable arguments behind our opinions?

Kobe is one of the Top 2 Shooting Guards ever and regarded as the most skilled player on offense by his peers... and still somehow you manage to say there are 10 others better than him. How??

So let's hear it then... who's your Top 10 Offensive Players ever?

I care about impact far more than about skillset versatility. I don't give Kobe bonus points for taking tougher shots than someone like Shaq, why should I?

About top 10 offensive players ever, it depends on whether you ask about peaks or careers. For peaks, I think I'd consider these players:

Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Julius Erving
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Michael Jordan
Charles Barkley
Shaquille O'Neal
Dirk Nowitzki
Dwyane Wade
Steph Curry
James Harden

That said, I wouldn't put all of them higher. I'd take Kobe over Harden, Wade, maybe Erving, Dirk, Barkley and Wilt as well. As I said, he has very reasonable case for top 10, but it's not a given.
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Re: is kobe bryant a top 10 offensive player ever? 

Post#6 » by LAL1947 » Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:54 am

70sFan wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:Because I read all your posts and see this all the time, it appears to me that you are on a weird Kobe-hating trip.

If you read all my posts, you should know that I rarely post about Kobe here. I don't like Kobe discussions because of fans like you, who can't accept the fact that some people may respect and appreciate Kobe but not to the same degree.

That's not true at all. You post about Kobe all the time, trying to put him down in sneaky little ways... or replying to others who post about him, even if it has no connection to you.

70sFan wrote:
Kobe is one of the Top 2 Shooting Guards ever and regarded as the most skilled player on offense by his peers... and still somehow you manage to say there are 10 others better than him. How??

So let's hear it then... who's your Top 10 Offensive Players ever?

I care about impact far more than about skillset versatility. I don't give Kobe bonus points for taking tougher shots than someone like Shaq, why should I?

About top 10 offensive players ever, it depends on whether you ask about peaks or careers. For peaks, I think I'd consider these players:

Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Julius Erving
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Michael Jordan
Charles Barkley
Shaquille O'Neal
Dirk Nowitzki
Dwyane Wade
Steph Curry
James Harden

That said, I wouldn't put all of them higher. I'd take Kobe over Harden, Wade, maybe Erving, Dirk, Barkley and Wilt as well. As I said, he has very reasonable case for top 10, but it's not a given.

This is a list that has been padded to nonsensical levels IMO... but I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion.
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Re: is kobe bryant a top 10 offensive player ever? 

Post#7 » by 70sFan » Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:57 am

LAL1947 wrote:That's not true at all. You post about Kobe all the time, trying to put him down in sneaky little ways... or replying to others who post about him, even if it has no connection to you

Then you don't read my posts. I usually post about eras unrelated to Kobe at all.


This is a list that has been padded to nonsensical levels IMO... but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Tell me more about this nonsense. Who on that list doesn't make any sense and why?
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Re: is kobe bryant a top 10 offensive player ever? 

Post#8 » by LAL1947 » Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:04 am

70sFan wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:That's not true at all. You post about Kobe all the time, trying to put him down in sneaky little ways... or replying to others who post about him, even if it has no connection to you

Then you don't read my posts. I usually post about eras unrelated to Kobe at all.


This is a list that has been padded to nonsensical levels IMO... but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Tell me more about this nonsense. Who on that list doesn't make any sense and why?

For starters, I think Charles Barkley would laugh at this list himself, seeing that someone was even thinking of putting him ahead of Kobe as a Top 10 Offensive Player ever. You do this all the time though, say some sneakily outrageously things and try to make it seem like a normal argument, or make really padded lists but then throw in little disclaimers to seem like you're being above board... when your real goal is to surreptitiously throw shade at Kobe by raising false question marks where there should be NO question marks, thus building up your beloved Timmy Duncan. For example, when you say here "Kobe has very reasonable case for top 10, but it's not a given". That is INSANE. Kobe is a LOCK for Top 10 and even thinking of putting guys like Barkley over him is just LUDICROUS.

Stuff like this is why I consider you the Timmy-Lover-In-Chief on these boards and it makes me chuckle a little every time you ask me to be objective, when you clearly have no intention of being objective yourself when it comes to Kobe.
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Re: is kobe bryant a top 10 offensive player ever? 

Post#9 » by Amares » Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:12 am

He has some arguments, but I wouldn't rank him top 10 probably. Top 15 yes
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Re: is kobe bryant a top 10 offensive player ever? 

Post#10 » by 70sFan » Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:14 am

LAL1947 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:That's not true at all. You post about Kobe all the time, trying to put him down in sneaky little ways... or replying to others who post about him, even if it has no connection to you

Then you don't read my posts. I usually post about eras unrelated to Kobe at all.


This is a list that has been padded to nonsensical levels IMO... but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Tell me more about this nonsense. Who on that list doesn't make any sense and why?

For starters, I think Charles Barkley would laugh at this list himself, to know that someone out there was even thinking of putting him ahead of Kobe as a Top 10 Offensive Player ever. You do this all the time though, say some outrageously bad things or make really padded lists but then throw in little disclaimers to seem like you're being above board... when your real goal is to surreptitiously throw shade at Kobe and build up your beloved Timmy Duncan. For example, when you say here "he has very reasonable case for top 10, but it's not a given". That is INSANE. Kobe is a LOCK for Top 10 and even thinking of putting guys like Barkley over him is just LUDICROUS.

Barkley was considerably more efficient scorer and very valuable offensive rebounder. His ability to handle the ball and drive from perimeter made him a mismatch at his position in a way no guard could replicate. Barkley, unlike most bigs, was also strong passer who could play as a main/secondary playmaker.

Barkley anchored some excellent offenses throughout his career. If you take a look at 1989 or 1990, he turned mediocre Sixers teams into top tier offenses. It's seriously astonishing what he could do with such a weak teams. Then he showed his versatility when he came into Phoenix, turning them into condenders from start.

I didn't say that I'd definitely take Barkley over Kobe, only that he has a case. That's not unreasonable at all, make a thread if you don't believe so.

That's your problem, you simply don't recognise the greatness of some of these players. Kobe was phenomenal player, but we had a lot of amazing players during 75 years of NBA existance. It's not about me hating Kobe, it's about your lack of appreciation for other legends.
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Re: is kobe bryant a top 10 offensive player ever? 

Post#11 » by MyUniBroDavis » Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:16 am

LAL1947 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:That's not true at all. You post about Kobe all the time, trying to put him down in sneaky little ways... or replying to others who post about him, even if it has no connection to you

Then you don't read my posts. I usually post about eras unrelated to Kobe at all.


This is a list that has been padded to nonsensical levels IMO... but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Tell me more about this nonsense. Who on that list doesn't make any sense and why?

For starters, I think Charles Barkley would laugh at this list himself, seeing that someone was even thinking of putting him ahead of Kobe as a Top 10 Offensive Player ever. You do this all the time though, say some outrageous things or make really padded lists but then throw in little disclaimers to seem like you're being above board... when your real goal is to surreptitiously throw shade at Kobe by raising false question marks where there should be NO question marks, thus building up your beloved Timmy Duncan. For example, when you say here "Kobe has very reasonable case for top 10, but it's not a given". That is INSANE. Kobe is a LOCK for Top 10 and even thinking of putting guys like Barkley over him is just LUDICROUS.

Stuff like this is why I consider you the Timmy-Lover-In-Chief on these boards and it makes me chuckle a little every time you ask me to be objective, when you clearly have no intention of being objective yourself when it comes to Kobe.


I’m probably higher on Kobe than like 90% or the board but I never got the vibe that 70sfan doesn’t like Kobe lol
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Re: is kobe bryant a top 10 offensive player ever? 

Post#12 » by LAL1947 » Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:17 am

70sFan wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:
70sFan wrote:Then you don't read my posts. I usually post about eras unrelated to Kobe at all.



Tell me more about this nonsense. Who on that list doesn't make any sense and why?

For starters, I think Charles Barkley would laugh at this list himself, to know that someone out there was even thinking of putting him ahead of Kobe as a Top 10 Offensive Player ever. You do this all the time though, say some outrageously bad things or make really padded lists but then throw in little disclaimers to seem like you're being above board... when your real goal is to surreptitiously throw shade at Kobe and build up your beloved Timmy Duncan. For example, when you say here "he has very reasonable case for top 10, but it's not a given". That is INSANE. Kobe is a LOCK for Top 10 and even thinking of putting guys like Barkley over him is just LUDICROUS.

Barkley was considerably more efficient scorer and very valuable offensive rebounder. His ability to handle the ball and drive from perimeter made him a mismatch at his position in a way no guard could replicate. Barkley, unlike most bigs, was also strong passer who could play as a main/secondary playmaker.

Barkley anchored some excellent offenses throughout his career. If you take a look at 1989 or 1990, he turned mediocre Sixers teams into top tier offenses. It's seriously astonishing what he could do with such a weak teams. Then he showed his versatility when he came into Phoenix, turning them into condenders from start.

I didn't say that I'd definitely take Barkley over Kobe, only that he has a case. That's not unreasonable at all, make a thread if you don't believe so.

That's your problem, you simply don't recognise the greatness of some of these players. Kobe was phenomenal player, but we had a lot of amazing players during 75 years of NBA existance. It's not about me hating Kobe, it's about your lack of appreciation for other legends.

Well, if that's what you believe, then I hope Barkley is also your real Best Power Forward of All Time... not Timmy Duncan.
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Re: is kobe bryant a top 10 offensive player ever? 

Post#13 » by 70sFan » Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:20 am

LAL1947 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:For starters, I think Charles Barkley would laugh at this list himself, to know that someone out there was even thinking of putting him ahead of Kobe as a Top 10 Offensive Player ever. You do this all the time though, say some outrageously bad things or make really padded lists but then throw in little disclaimers to seem like you're being above board... when your real goal is to surreptitiously throw shade at Kobe and build up your beloved Timmy Duncan. For example, when you say here "he has very reasonable case for top 10, but it's not a given". That is INSANE. Kobe is a LOCK for Top 10 and even thinking of putting guys like Barkley over him is just LUDICROUS.

Barkley was considerably more efficient scorer and very valuable offensive rebounder. His ability to handle the ball and drive from perimeter made him a mismatch at his position in a way no guard could replicate. Barkley, unlike most bigs, was also strong passer who could play as a main/secondary playmaker.

Barkley anchored some excellent offenses throughout his career. If you take a look at 1989 or 1990, he turned mediocre Sixers teams into top tier offenses. It's seriously astonishing what he could do with such a weak teams. Then he showed his versatility when he came into Phoenix, turning them into condenders from start.

I didn't say that I'd definitely take Barkley over Kobe, only that he has a case. That's not unreasonable at all, make a thread if you don't believe so.

That's your problem, you simply don't recognise the greatness of some of these players. Kobe was phenomenal player, but we had a lot of amazing players during 75 years of NBA existance. It's not about me hating Kobe, it's about your lack of appreciation for other legends.

Well, if that's what you believe, then I guess Barkley is the real Best Power Forward of All Time... not Timmy Duncan.

I don't rate Duncan at PF at all, so...

I think Dirk and Barkley were comfortably better offensively than Duncan. I have both Duncan and KG higher than them because of defense (and longevity).
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Re: is kobe bryant a top 10 offensive player ever? 

Post#14 » by LAL1947 » Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:40 am

This is getting too much to debate. I just want to say a few things.

1) Being great at your position is not the same as being great across all positions.
2) Being an efficient scorer is not the same as being the best offensive player.
3) Being good at a couple of things (such as being a great shooter alone) is not the same as being able to score from every where on the floor, in any manner, at any time, and any against any defense or defender that is thrown against you.

Barkley was just simply not on the same level as Kobe as an offensive player and there is no case to be made for it either AFAIC. This does not mean I don't appreciate Barkley as a player or his skill set. It simply means I give Kobe's skill set the appropriate appreciation it deserves, instead of trying to attach false asterisks to it.

Jordan (same style and skills but much better athleticism) and Wilt (scoring records) are better, no need to argue those. Magic, Bird and Lebron are the only ones from that list you can genuinely argue about IF including impact on team through passing/orchestration. Perhaps, even Kareem, only because of his longevity than anything else. None of the rest. From the guys still playing, you left out Durant, who I don't believe is a better offensive player than Kobe but he's pretty unstoppable as a 7-foot shooter who can also get to the rim, so that's at least arguable. Absolutely no for Curry, Harden, Giannis, Jokic, Embiid and Luka.
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Re: is kobe bryant a top 10 offensive player ever? 

Post#15 » by MyUniBroDavis » Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:52 am

This isn’t in order obviously but

Curry
Bron
Jordan
Magic

I’d probably put above

Bird/Shaq/Kareem

I’m more maybe ish on, idk that much about magic and bird though

Then u have the guys like harden/KD/Dirk and them where I’d probably put kobe above

I think 06 kobe was his peak offense as a player, on a good team he would have passed more since I know that was a locker room thing (and I’m not holding it against him cuz the idea is kinda sick lol)

There are always caveats with role and stuff like that, like sometimes I’d take player X over him, like maybe i need a shaq for my team instead, or sometimes I’d take him over let’s say magic if the situation needed it

It should be noted when looking at Kobe’s synergy offense, given the plays he did his effeciency was absurd relative to his peers, I looked at it a LONG time ago but I remember he was more effecient than bron in the halfcourt in the 09 season for example.

Effeciency is probably better role specific thing than anything else, but he was extremely portable as he was a effective scorer in pretty much every play type on synergy I think.

I’d be curious to see Kobe in a more modern offensive system. I don’t think it’s a coincidence how much crazier his offense got from 2012 to 2013 with decent offensive coaching (and dantoni wasn’t even coaching them that well at times offensively, but they were probably running better stuff by then)

I don’t really think it’s crazy when people don’t have him top ten on offense but I feel I’d prolly have him at 5 or close to that
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Re: is kobe bryant a top 10 offensive player ever? 

Post#16 » by MyUniBroDavis » Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:55 am

LAL1947 wrote:This is getting too much to debate. I just want to say a few things.

1) Being great at your position is not the same as being great across all positions.
2) Being an efficient scorer is not the same as being the best offensive player.
3) Being good at a couple of things (such as being a great shooter alone) is not the same as being able to score from every where on the floor, in any manner, at any time, and any against any defense or defender that is thrown against you.

Barkley was just simply not on the same level as Kobe as an offensive player and there is no case to be made for it either AFAIC. This does not mean I don't appreciate Barkley as a player or his skill set. It simply means I give Kobe's skill set the appropriate appreciation it deserves, instead of trying to attach false asterisks to it.

Jordan (same skills and style but better athleticism), Wilt (scoring records), and maybe Magic, Bird and Lebron (if including impact on team through passing/orchestration) are the only ones from that list you can genuinely argue are better offensive players than Kobe. Perhaps, even Kareem, because of his longevity more than anything else. None of the rest. From the guys still playing, you left out Durant, who I don't believe is a better offensive player than Kobe but he's pretty unstoppable as a 7-foot shooter who can also get to the rim, so that's arguable. Absolutely no for Curry, Harden, Giannis, Jokic, Embiid and Luka.


Bro whose talking about embiid, also how would kareems peak be higher because of longevity that doesn’t make sense
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Re: is kobe bryant a top 10 offensive player ever? 

Post#17 » by 70sFan » Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:00 am

LAL1947 wrote:This is getting too much to debate. I just want to say a few things.

1) Being great at your position is not the same as being great across all positions.
2) Being an efficient scorer is not the same as being the best offensive player.
3) Being good at a couple of things (such as being a great shooter alone) is not the same as being able to score from every where on the floor, in any manner, at any time, and any against any defense or defender that is thrown against you.

Barkley was just simply not on the same level as Kobe as an offensive player and there is no case to be made for it either AFAIC. This does not mean I don't appreciate Barkley as a player or his skill set. It simply means I give Kobe's skill set the appropriate appreciation it deserves, instead of trying to attach false asterisks to it.

Jordan (same skills and style but better athleticism), Wilt (scoring records), and maybe Magic, Bird and Lebron (if including impact on team through passing/orchestration) are the only ones from that list you can genuinely argue are better offensive players than Kobe. Perhaps, even Kareem, because of his longevity more than anything else. None of the rest. From the guys still playing, you left out Durant, who I don't believe is a better offensive player than Kobe but he's pretty unstoppable as a 7-foot shooter who can also get to the rim, so that's at least arguable. Absolutely no for Curry, Harden, Giannis, Jokic, Embiid and Luka.

1. I forgot about KD, you are right.
2. I didn't mention Giannis, Jokic, Embiid or Luka. That said, Jokic definitely has a case, I also forgot about him.
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Re: is kobe bryant a top 10 offensive player ever? 

Post#18 » by LAL1947 » Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:07 am

70sFan wrote:1. I forgot about KD, you are right.
2. I didn't mention Giannis, Jokic, Embiid or Luka. That said, Jokic definitely has a case, I also forgot about him.

No, Jokic does not. :lol:
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Re: is kobe bryant a top 10 offensive player ever? 

Post#19 » by LAL1947 » Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:11 am

MyUniBroDavis wrote:Bro whose talking about embiid, also how would kareems peak be higher because of longevity that doesn’t make sense

That was a "catch-all" answer, intended to catch all stray arguments/candidates that might come up next.

As an aside, I think 2002-03 was Kobe's best display on offense, not 2005-06. It's a shame Shaq had to ruin that season.
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Re: is kobe bryant a top 10 offensive player ever? 

Post#20 » by MyUniBroDavis » Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:15 am

LAL1947 wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:Bro whose talking about embiid, also how would kareems peak be higher because of longevity that doesn’t make sense

That was a "catch-all" answer, intended to catch all stray arguments that might come up next.


But it doesn’t make sense lol

If we are talking about offensive peaks whose gonna argue kareems offensive longevity is the reason his offensive peak is higher

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