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Who's the most talented of the bunch?

Probably Tmac, but his lack of work ethic, injuries and shot selection among other things seemed to hurt him quite a bit.

luka imo, his skillset was already elite at 19

McGrady. Smoothest and among the cleanest aesthetics in NBA history IMO

falcolombardi wrote:luka imo, his skillset was already elite at 19

i'd argue a big part of that was just facing far superior competition at a younger age that forced him to develop his game sooner. IMO he's essentially had an advanced aging curve.

he obviously has immense natural talent but i think all of these players would've been better at 19 than they are if they were playing grown men in europe as a teenager instead of just other teenagers.

McGrady was KD before KD.

I think easily the most talented on this list just a shame he couldn't stay healthy.

jasonxxx102 wrote:McGrady was KD before KD.

That doesn't click in my head. He was shorter, nothing like KD as a shooter and a far better ball-handler/playmaker in terms of skill set. I mean, damn did he have physical tools and talent to work with, and obviously when he bothered to work on his game, he developed a pretty remarkable repertoire. But aesthetically and physically, he diverged a lot from KD.

tsherkin wrote:

jasonxxx102 wrote:McGrady was KD before KD.

That doesn't click in my head. He was shorter, nothing like KD as a shooter and a far better ball-handler/playmaker in terms of skill set. I mean, damn did he have physical tools and talent to work with, and obviously when he bothered to work on his game, he developed a pretty remarkable repertoire. But aesthetically and physically, he diverged a lot from KD.

Fair point, you're probably right. I was thinking in terms of elite offensive guards in a forwards body who could get their own shot anywhere on the floor. TMac was far more versatile and unfortunately didn't have the luxury of having HOF level teammates for his entire career

KD was more efficient and a better shooter but it's not a huge gap. McGrady was a phenomenal ball handler, much better than Durant. Better finisher at the rim, and better playmaker. McGrady was much more of a ball dominator than Durant but I think that can mostly be attributed to their respective teams. KD has always played with a ball dominant guard so he has had the luxury of playing more off-ball whereas McGrady had to dominate the ball to have any chance at winning games.

He had the best peak of any hybrid G/F in the 2000s. The fact that he was 4th in MVP voting in 02-03 was a joke.

jasonxxx102 wrote:He had the best peak of any hybrid G/F in the 2000s. The fact that he was 4th in MVP voting in 02-03 was a joke.

A joke? He was worse player than Duncan and KG in that season, which already puts him 3rd. He probably deserved to be higher than Kobe due to team circumstances, but I don't think Tmac was any better than Bryant during that season in terms of ability.

jasonxxx102 wrote:Fair point, you're probably right. I was thinking in terms of elite offensive guards in a forwards body who could get their own shot anywhere on the floor. TMac was far more versatile and unfortunately didn't have the luxury of having HOF level teammates for his entire career

Orlando was pretty rough and both he and his teammates had injury issues in Houston, for sure. He also didn't have the world's greatest work ethic most seasons, but also that was a pretty grinder, physical era. His talent was unquestionable, though. When he was healthy in his hey-day, he was a breath-taking offensive player and sometimes a pretty good defender.

KD was more efficient and a better shooter but it's not a huge gap.

As a shooter, it is. McGrady had like two seasons where he was an above-average 3pt shooter and was a notably worse FT shooter. His splits in the mid-range are also notably inferior.

Remember:

Career 74.6% FT shooter, maxing at 80.1%.

Career 33.8% 3P shooter on considerably less volume most years. When he shot 5+ 3PA/g, he was a middling 3pt shooter at best.

Let's charitably look at 01-08 for his shooting splits. 39.1% from 3-10 feet, 39.7% from 10-16 feet, 42.3% from 16-23 feet.

An acceptable shooter. Even pretty good on long twos, but nothing like KD.

McGrady was a phenomenal ball handler, much better than Durant.

This is very true.

Better finisher at the rim,

This one is tougher. It is not statistically true, but of course, there are other things to consider. He was a 58.1% shooter from 0-3 feet. Obviously, the era and defensive contexts are quite different, so stand-up comparison of their FG% at those ranges is a little bit more challenging then discussing their jumpers, but it ends up being more of a "it felt like this" kind of thing than something we can confirm. He certainly had nice touch on acrobatic layups and what have you. And compared to his in-era peers, he was up there, but not the best. Bryant over the same stretch was a 62.8% finisher in that range. Vince was a very similar 58.3%, also electing to go for a lot of acrobatic finishes instead of finishing through contact, though he (like McGrady) was quite good at them. Ray Allen was at 62.2%. Paul Pierce was at 60.4%. Just for some context. Team environment obviously plays in to some extent, of course.

and better playmaker.

This is unquestionably true. McGrady's on-ball play and vision and speed of passing were all notably superior to Durant's.

KD has always played with a ball dominant guard so he has had the luxury of playing more off-ball whereas McGrady had to dominate the ball to have any chance at winning games.

I don't think it's a luxury, I think it's a skill deficiency. If you watch him, extended ball-handling is not really his friend. He's slow to read the D at times and he isn't amazing at making skip passes. That sounds all drastic and such, and of course Durant is a very good iso player when he isn't getting swarmed by a million guys. He's just not at McGrady's level of vision, ball-handling or playmaking, that's all.

He had the best peak of any hybrid G/F in the 2000s. The fact that he was 4th in MVP voting in 02-03 was a joke.

Was it, though? Duncan had just authored a very good defense en route to a 60-win season with not very much around him. Parker was in his second season, Manu was a rookie, D-Rob was a thousand years old. Obviously he had more to work with than McGrady, but the MVP has indeed traditionally rewarded successful teams instead of guys bombing away on garbage teams. Kobe didn't win it in 06 either, remember, nor Jordan in 87. Same kind of situation.

70sFan wrote:

jasonxxx102 wrote:He had the best peak of any hybrid G/F in the 2000s. The fact that he was 4th in MVP voting in 02-03 was a joke.

A joke? He was worse player than Duncan and KG in that season, which already puts him 3rd. He probably deserved to be higher than Kobe due to team circumstances, but I don't think Tmac was any better than Bryant during that season in terms of ability.

Was he a worse player or did he have a worse team?

Plenty of data that shows McGrady was better as an individual player than either of those 2.

McGrady is my favorite player all time so obviously I'm biased but 02-03 might be the best individual season I've ever watched outside of LeBron and maybe a couple seasons of Curry.

jasonxxx102 wrote:

70sFan wrote:

jasonxxx102 wrote:He had the best peak of any hybrid G/F in the 2000s. The fact that he was 4th in MVP voting in 02-03 was a joke.

A joke? He was worse player than Duncan and KG in that season, which already puts him 3rd. He probably deserved to be higher than Kobe due to team circumstances, but I don't think Tmac was any better than Bryant during that season in terms of ability.

Was he a worse player or did he have a worse team?

Plenty of data that shows McGrady was better as an individual player than either of those 2.

McGrady is my favorite player all time so obviously I'm biased but 02-03 might be the best individual season I've ever watched outside of LeBron and maybe a couple seasons of Curry.

What data?

70sFan wrote:

jasonxxx102 wrote:

70sFan wrote:A joke? He was worse player than Duncan and KG in that season, which already puts him 3rd. He probably deserved to be higher than Kobe due to team circumstances, but I don't think Tmac was any better than Bryant during that season in terms of ability.

Was he a worse player or did he have a worse team?

Plenty of data that shows McGrady was better as an individual player than either of those 2.

McGrady is my favorite player all time so obviously I'm biased but 02-03 might be the best individual season I've ever watched outside of LeBron and maybe a couple seasons of Curry.

What data?

You could have just taken 2 minutes and gone on bkref and looked.

jasonxxx102 wrote:McGrady is my favorite player all time so obviously I'm biased but 02-03 might be the best individual season I've ever watched outside of LeBron and maybe a couple seasons of Curry.

Statistically, it was certainly a big year. 13.2 OWS (league-high), .262 WS/48 (league-high), +9.8 OBPM (league-high), 9.3 VORP (league-high). RAPM wasn't hugely favorable to McGrady that year, having him at +1.1. ESPN's RPM had him 4th, for what that's worth. Big year, and impressive in context because working with half a season of Mike Miller, Pat Garrity, Darrell Armstrong, a quarter season of Grant Hill, Jacque Vaughn, Shawn Kemp's fridge and Andrew Declerq was far from ideal.

70sFan wrote:What data?

I got you on that one, 70s. Look at my last post

jasonxxx102 wrote:

70sFan wrote:

jasonxxx102 wrote:
Was he a worse player or did he have a worse team?

Plenty of data that shows McGrady was better as an individual player than either of those 2.

McGrady is my favorite player all time so obviously I'm biased but 02-03 might be the best individual season I've ever watched outside of LeBron and maybe a couple seasons of Curry.

What data?

You could have just taken 2 minutes and gone on bkref and looked.

Oh, got it. You mean all the data that doesn't include defensive part of the equation. Then sure, Tmac was far better offensive player than Duncan or Garnett that year.

70sFan wrote:Oh, got it. You mean all the data that doesn't include defensive part of the equation. Then sure, Tmac was far better offensive player than Duncan or Garnett that year.

Well, let's toss that into context, shall we? Within the limitations of the numbers used, of course.

03 Duncan: 16.5 WS, .248 WS/48, 9.5 OWS, 6.9 DWS, 5.0 OBPM, 2.5 DBPM, 7.6 BPM, 7.7 VORP
03 Mcgrady: 16.1 WS, .262 WS/48, 13.2 OWS, 2.9 DWS, 9.8 OBPM, 0.7 DBPM, 10.5 BPM, 9.3 VORP

The Spurs, at -3.9, were the 3rd-best D in the league during the regular season en route to 60 wins.

It is very clear, with or without the numbers, that Duncan was a better defender. That's fine, no one is arguing that. But the outsized impact McGrady was exerting on offense that year is worthy of consideration and discussion here.

Do you know that in the entire 3pt era, only 03 McGrady and 2016 Steph Curry have authored a season of +9.8 OBPM? Steph's was 10.3.

Jordan has 7 seasons of 8+, including a 9.1 and an 8.9, but he didn't get to quite that peak. He had seasons with more OWS, he had seasons with higher BPM and higher BORP, but never quite that one particular peak.

That's what he's getting at. This was a historic offensive performance from McGrady.

TMac, just freakish athleticism along with ball handling skill, and a good outside shot at 6’8!

I'd say KD. I love me some T-Mac, he was my favorite player for a while, but he's gotten overrated as time has passed.

Ambrose wrote:I'd say KD. I love me some T-Mac, he was my favorite player for a while, but he's gotten overrated as time has passed.

Can you explain what you think the talent difference is between the two which favors Durant?

EDIT: This is an open discussion, I'm just curious because most of the actual discussion has favored McGrady, so I'd love to hear an alternate perspective.