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The idea is to think of a player archetype (off ball shooting guard, point forward, score first wing, paint centric shot blocker, etc) of any kind you can think of

very specific or very general are both fine

the idea is to have a) best player of that archetype, b) trailblazer/pioneer, c) best prospect for the future

example: point forward. pioneer: magic, best: lebron, future:luka

as well as any other category you wanna mentkon

falcolombardi wrote:point forward. pioneer: magic

Strictly speaking, Magic didn't pioneer that position. Oscar Robertson was a tall, ball-handling guard before him and Rick Barry was definitely a prototype large ball-handler in the 70s. And you can bandy about semantics as well, since Magic was more properly actually a guard than a forward. John Johnson on the Sonics, also in the 70s. Even Bird was more of an actual "point forward," per se. Robert Reid in Houston. Anyway, even if you look off Marques Johnson and all the other guys who did it during Magic's actual career, and if you consider Oscar "just a guard" or whatever, it remains true that Barry and John Johnson were doing it before Magic was in the NBA.

3&D wing specialist. Must be a guy who offensively does little more than set shots or maybe cuts. Not much off the dribble or movement shooting (=no Klay)
pioneer: Bruce Bowen, before him I don't rememeber anyone that specialized
goat: young Kawhi, obviously he soon evolved into much more than that
best today: Mikal Bridges

Rim protecting, rim running defensive center. Idelly low usage, his offence should not be self created
Pioneer: Tyson Chandler, first one I rememeber having this super efficient season
Goat and best today: Rudy Gobert

Stretch 5 with paint protection
Pioneer: Bill Laimbeer
Goat: Brook Lopez, but I suspect the best is yet to come
Best today: Myles Turner and JJJ, but both are not yet accomplished enough with their shooting






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tsherkin wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:point forward. pioneer: magic

Strictly speaking, Magic didn't pioneer that position. Oscar Robertson was a tall, ball-handling guard before him and Rick Barry was definitely a prototype large ball-handler in the 70s. And you can bandy about semantics as well, since Magic was more properly actually a guard than a forward. John Johnson on the Sonics, also in the 70s. Even Bird was more of an actual "point forward," per se. Robert Reid in Houston. Anyway, even if you look off Marques Johnson and all the other guys who did it during Magic's actual career, and if you consider Oscar "just a guard" or whatever, it remains true that Barry and John Johnson were doing it before Magic was in the NBA.

I wouldn't call Barry a point forward, he was much more of an off-ball creator in Curry/Bird mold than Oscar/James/Luka. Good point with Oscar though.

Zero-scoring playmaker
Pioneer: Dick McGuire or somebody like that, I guess
GOAT: Ricky Rubio Jason Kidd
Best today: Marcus Smart

Slow-motion scoring forward
Pioneer: IDK
GOAT: Adrian Dantley
Best today: Bojan Bogdanovic

Cocaine gunner
Pioneer: Micheal Ray Richardson
GOAT: Gilbert Arenas
Best today: don't know, Fred VanVleet? Trae Young is too uncool to do coke

The Big
Pioneer: Clyde Lovellette? He certainly has the chin of a great The Big
GOAT: Mark Eaton? Charles Oakley?
Best today: Steven Adams

Matisse Thybulle
Pioneer: Matisse Thybulle
GOAT: Matisse Thybulle
Best today: Matisse Thybulle

Jaivl wrote:Slow-motion scoring forward
Pioneer: IDK
GOAT: Adrian Dantley
Best today: Bojan Bogdanovic

For pioneer, I'd go with Bailey Howell maybe? He played at PF a lot, but was basically a combo forward. If not, maybe Bulls verison of Chet Walker.

Non-3 and D lockdown defender:

Pioneer: KC Jones
GOAT: Tony Allen
Best today: Matisse Thybulle

Flashy pass-first PG with little impact:

Pioneer: Rod Hot Hundley
GOAT: Jason Williams
Best today: Facundo Campazzo

Defensive bigman with PG role on offense:

Pioneer: Maurice Stokes
GOAT: Draymond Green
Best today: Draymond Green

Off-ball high scoring shooter:

Pioneer: Jack Twyman
GOAT: Reggie Miller
Best today: Klay Thompson

tsherkin wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:point forward. pioneer: magic

Strictly speaking, Magic didn't pioneer that position. Oscar Robertson was a tall, ball-handling guard before him and Rick Barry was definitely a prototype large ball-handler in the 70s. And you can bandy about semantics as well, since Magic was more properly actually a guard than a forward. John Johnson on the Sonics, also in the 70s. Even Bird was more of an actual "point forward," per se. Robert Reid in Houston. Anyway, even if you look off Marques Johnson and all the other guys who did it during Magic's actual career, and if you consider Oscar "just a guard" or whatever, it remains true that Barry and John Johnson were doing it before Magic was in the NBA.

Tom Gola before him was a 6'6 guard getting close to 10 rebounds a game while playing a strong backcourt playmaking role. Not a great scorer as a pro but checked all the other boxes back into the 50s.

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:3&D wing specialist. Must be a guy who offensively does little more than set shots or maybe cuts. Not much off the dribble or movement shooting (=no Klay)
pioneer: Bruce Bowen, before him I don't rememeber anyone that specialized
goat: young Kawhi, obviously he soon evolved into much more than that
best today: Mikal Bridges

Rim protecting, rim running defensive center. Idelly low usage, his offence should not be self created
Pioneer: Tyson Chandler, first one I rememeber having this super efficient season
Goat and best today: Rudy Gobert

Stretch 5 with paint protection
Pioneer: Bill Laimbeer
Goat: Brook Lopez, but I suspect the best is yet to come
Best today: Myles Turner and JJJ, but both are not yet accomplished enough with their shooting






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Bowen possibly the most specialized; he would just camp in the corner without moving. Jack Marin used to get close to a third of his shots from the corner before it was worth 3 points and still stayed pretty efficient.

There have been a lot of defensive centers over the years who had little ability to create their own shot but could catch and score as a roll man.

Clyde Lovellette and Zelmo Beaty used to work outside, Beaty at least used to be a decent (though not great) rim protector, better than Laimbeer who was more a man defender.

penbeast0 wrote:

tsherkin wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:point forward. pioneer: magic

Strictly speaking, Magic didn't pioneer that position. Oscar Robertson was a tall, ball-handling guard before him and Rick Barry was definitely a prototype large ball-handler in the 70s. And you can bandy about semantics as well, since Magic was more properly actually a guard than a forward. John Johnson on the Sonics, also in the 70s. Even Bird was more of an actual "point forward," per se. Robert Reid in Houston. Anyway, even if you look off Marques Johnson and all the other guys who did it during Magic's actual career, and if you consider Oscar "just a guard" or whatever, it remains true that Barry and John Johnson were doing it before Magic was in the NBA.

Tom Gola before him was a 6'6 guard getting close to 10 rebounds a game while playing a strong backcourt playmaking role. Not a great scorer as a pro but checked all the other boxes back into the 50s.

For a big point guard, look no further than Carl Braun who was huge (6'5 in the early 1950s) and could shoot from anywhere.

70sFan wrote:I wouldn't call Barry a point forward, he was much more of an off-ball creator in Curry/Bird mold than Oscar/James/Luka. Good point with Oscar though.

I wouldn't call him an all-the-time dude, but if we're speaking of people who pioneered the role, when he was playing for the Warriors, he handled and passed way more than your average wing. Part of the evolutionary chain.

Let's see:

Long-range one-handed scorer:
Pioneer: Hank Luisetti
Best: Steph Curry
Future: Desmond Bane?

Perimeter Rovers:
Pioneer: Reggie Miller
Best: Steph Curry
Future: Jordan Poole?

Interior Rovers:
Pioneer: Larry Bird
Best: Larry Bird
Future: ???

Post Scorer:
Pioneer: George Mikan
Best: Shaquille O'Neal
Future: Nikola Jokic

Pivot Passer:
Pioneer: Dutch Dehnert
Best: Nikola Jokic
Future: ???

Small Floor General:
Pioneer: Bob Davies
Best: Steve Nash
Future: Trae Young

Big Floor General:
Pioneer: Magic Johnson
Best: Magic Johnson
Future: Luka Doncic

Big Hand Playmaker:
Pioneer: Goose Tatum
Best: Connie Hawkins
Future: lost art

Goaltender:
Pioneer: George Mikan & Bob Kurland
Best: Bill Russell
Future: Evan Mobley

Defensive Quarterback:
Pioneer: Kevin Garnett
Best: Draymond Green
Future: ???

Perimeter Man Defender:
Pioneer: Al Cervi
Best: Scottie Pippen
Future: Herb Jones

Doctor MJ wrote:Big Floor General:
Pioneer: Magic Johnson

Just because it's been discussed earlier in the thread, why no Oscar (or other guys) for pioneer, or any of the other dudes? Is it just like volume of role kind of thing?

tsherkin wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:Big Floor General:
Pioneer: Magic Johnson

Just because it's been discussed earlier in the thread, why no Oscar (or other guys) for pioneer, or any of the other dudes? Is it just like volume of role kind of thing?

Well, in Oscar's era, 6'5" was still smaller than average for an NBA player so it's hard for me to look at that as a "big".

I'll concede though that by older historical standards 6'5" was indeed a big, and perhaps that's the better way to look at it.

Doctor MJ wrote:Let's see:

Long-range one-handed scorer:
Pioneer: Hank Luisetti
Best: Steph Curry
Future: Desmond Bane?

Perimeter Rovers:
Pioneer: Reggie Miller
Best: Steph Curry
Future: Jordan Poole?

Interior Rovers:
Pioneer: Larry Bird
Best: Larry Bird
Future: ???

Post Scorer:
Pioneer: George Mikan
Best: Shaquille O'Neal
Future: Nikola Jokic

Pivot Passer:
Pioneer: Dutch Dehnert
Best: Nikola Jokic
Future: ???

Small Floor General:
Pioneer: Bob Davies
Best: Steve Nash
Future: Trae Young

Big Floor General:
Pioneer: Magic Johnson
Best: Magic Johnson
Future: Luka Doncic

Big Hand Playmaker:
Pioneer: Goose Tatum
Best: Connie Hawkins
Future: lost art

Goaltender:
Pioneer: George Mikan & Bob Kurland
Best: Bill Russell
Future: Evan Mobley

Defensive Quarterback:
Pioneer: Kevin Garnett
Best: Draymond Green
Future: ???

Perimeter Man Defender:
Pioneer: Al Cervi
Best: Scottie Pippen
Future: Herb Jones

shaq was not nearly as good of a post scorer as kareem or many others, he was better as a offensive rebounder or off ball player than actual post moves

in fact you could even argue him for "interior rover" alongside bird with how much of his impact came from off ball rather tjan isolation post ups like kareem

Doctor MJ wrote:Well, in Oscar's era, 6'5" was still smaller than average for an NBA player so it's hard for me to look at that as a "big".

I'll concede though that by older historical standards 6'5" was indeed a big, and perhaps that's the better way to look at it.

Well, as you say, how we define it matters. For me, "big" meant more "big relative to the people who were doing at the time, or the appropriate position," but if you're looking at someone who is 6'8+ handling on the regular, then yeah, it starts to move the needle a bit for sure!

falcolombardi wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:Let's see:

Long-range one-handed scorer:
Pioneer: Hank Luisetti
Best: Steph Curry
Future: Desmond Bane?

Perimeter Rovers:
Pioneer: Reggie Miller
Best: Steph Curry
Future: Jordan Poole?

Interior Rovers:
Pioneer: Larry Bird
Best: Larry Bird
Future: ???

Post Scorer:
Pioneer: George Mikan
Best: Shaquille O'Neal
Future: Nikola Jokic

Pivot Passer:
Pioneer: Dutch Dehnert
Best: Nikola Jokic
Future: ???

Small Floor General:
Pioneer: Bob Davies
Best: Steve Nash
Future: Trae Young

Big Floor General:
Pioneer: Magic Johnson
Best: Magic Johnson
Future: Luka Doncic

Big Hand Playmaker:
Pioneer: Goose Tatum
Best: Connie Hawkins
Future: lost art

Goaltender:
Pioneer: George Mikan & Bob Kurland
Best: Bill Russell
Future: Evan Mobley

Defensive Quarterback:
Pioneer: Kevin Garnett
Best: Draymond Green
Future: ???

Perimeter Man Defender:
Pioneer: Al Cervi
Best: Scottie Pippen
Future: Herb Jones

shaq was not nearly as good of a post scorer as kareem or many others, he was better as a offensive rebounder or off ball player than actual post moves

in fact you could even argue him for "interior rover" alongside bird with how much of his impact came from off ball rather tjan isolation post ups like kareem

I understand that perspective, I suppose I tend to see Kareem in a different category.

When I think of post scoring, I think of someone who is aggressively pushing forward rather than curling backward. I tend to see Kareem's approach as more of a special kind of fadeaway specialist.

Not meaning that as any kind of insult though - Cap's skyhook is possibly the single most impressive scoring move in history.

Re: Shaq as interior rover. Well, I do think "interior rover" isn't a great name for how Bird played, and I get why others would focus on bigs with that name. I was trying to bring up Bird as being similar to the Reggie Miller archetype but distinct.

Some really cool choices Doc, my thoughts:

Doctor MJ wrote:Perimeter Rovers:
Pioneer: Reggie Miller
Best: Steph Curry
Future: Jordan Poole?

I think you can make a case that Sam Jones played that role before Miller.

Post Scorer:
Pioneer: George Mikan
Best: Shaquille O'Neal
Future: Nikola Jokic

Shaq wasn't that efficient of a post scorer. I would take someone like Kareem over him comfortably.

Defensive Quarterback:
Pioneer: Kevin Garnett
Best: Draymond Green
Future: ???

What makes you think Green is better in that role than Garnett? Also, why do you think KG is a pioneer? Do you think such role didn't exist until last 15 years?

70sFan wrote:I think you can make a case that Sam Jones played that role before Miller.

I'm going to guess that he's emphasizing the 3pt aspect of "perimeter" on that one. Sam Jones did a really great job coming off screens, though, no doubt. He just ended up with a lot more of those elbow and short baseline Js than true "perimeter" action.

Shaq wasn't that efficient of a post scorer. I would take someone like Kareem over him comfortably.

Shaq's entire offense was based around post scoring, with dashes of transition offense. He was a career 58.6% TS and 111 TS+ guy, let's not take cracks at him for no reason. Kareem was amazing, and so in terms of his offense a fair counterpoint, but there's no sense in denigrating Shaq to prop up Kareem. He has his own merits on which to stand. Kareem was a career 59.2% TS guy (114 TS+), and a career 58.3% TS (114.8 TS+) before Magic. So, league environment plays in a little bit, but he was obviously a titanic offensive force who regularly features in GOAT conversations for a reason.

Defensive Quarterback:
Pioneer: Kevin Garnett
Best: Draymond Green
Future: ???

What makes you think Green is better in that role than Garnett? Also, why do you think KG is a pioneer? Do you think such role didn't exist until last 15 years?[/quote]

I suspect that we're talking about style of defense here, because Garnett didn't play defense the way the bigs of the 90s and earlier did.

tsherkin wrote:Shaq's entire offense was based around post scoring, with dashes of transition offense. He was a career 58.6% TS and 111 TS+ guy, let's not take cracks at him for no reason. Kareem was amazing, and so in terms of his offense a fair counterpoint, but there's no sense in denigrating Shaq to prop up Kareem. He has his own merits on which to stand. Kareem was a career 59.2% TS guy (114 TS+), and a career 58.3% TS (114.8 TS+) before Magic. So, league environment plays in a little bit, but he was obviously a titanic offensive force who regularly features in GOAT conversations for a reason.

I have been tracking best centers games for last two years and I actually went very in-depth with breaking down their post games. Shaq scored points in the post at around 50 TS% (in like 35 games from 200-01 sample), he wasn't that efficient of an isolation scorer mostly because of his FT%, but he wasn't very efficient converting those hooks, turnarounds and deep finishes from the field either (only around 51 FG% and that included power moves and dunks/lobs from overplays).

In comparison, Kareem scored from the post much more efficiently - at around 57 TS% if I remember correctly (don't have the laptop in front of me right now). That's absurdly good efficiency from isolation. He didn't draw as many fouls as Shaq, but he converted those FTs and he was far better at making his shots from the field as well.

Shaq's absurd efficiency comes from his offensive rebounding and inside finishing, not from his post game.

70sFan wrote:I have been tracking best centers games for last two years and I actually went very in-depth with breaking down their post games. Shaq scored points in the post at around 50 TS% (in like 35 games from 200-01 sample), he wasn't that efficient of an isolation scorer mostly because of his FT%, but he wasn't very efficient converting those hooks, turnarounds and deep finishes from the field either (only around 51 FG% and that included power moves and dunks/lobs from overplays).

In comparison, Kareem scored from the post much more efficiently - at around 57 TS% if I remember correctly (don't have the laptop in front of me right now). That's absurdly good efficiency from isolation. He didn't draw as many fouls as Shaq, but he converted those FTs and he was far better at making his shots from the field as well.

Shaq's absurd efficiency comes from his offensive rebounding and inside finishing, not from his post game.

I suppose it begins to come down to what you define as "post game." To me, moving off-ball in and around the post for quick touches, just-in-time cuts, offensive rebounding and all that other stuff IS post game. Post isolation is typically inefficient. If you want to say that Shaq wasn't as efficient as Kareem at specifically isolation scoring, sure. It sounds like you have tracking data to prove that and it doesn't super surprise me because Kareem was unearthly tall/long and that skyhook was insane, plus he had good counters. But I guess we have a semantic disagreement over what counts as "post offense," which is fine. I see your point and that research is good stuff