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While Kobe put 23/6/6/4.5 tovs on 44/18/79% in first 4 games?

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Kobe played better in 06 then 07 in the playoffs. In this case, the numbers are deceptive.

The 2006 lakers were bad but they were also hot at the right time.I mean they had also won their last 5 regular season game.

Kobe shot badly at first, but he single-handedly empowered that team of scrubs with grit, leadership and mamba mentality. When it was time to take over to close the series, he scored wonderfully and efficiently on route to a... 0-3 choke? Huh?

That series alone debunks so many misconceptions about the game of basketball it's not even funny.

Or you a troll account, or is your English legitimately that bad?

2006 was the Suns' second-worst team of the SSOL era (only better than the 2008 team that lost in the first round and got D'Antoni fired), and they weren't exactly a playoff juggernaut even in the best of times. So it wasn't outlandish that a clearly inferior team had them on the ropes. The Clippers were also a couple breathtakingly moronic coaching decisions by Dunleavy away from beating them in the second round that year.

MartinToVaught wrote:2006 was the Suns' second-worst team of the SSOL era (only better than the 2008 team that lost in the first round and got D'Antoni fired), and they weren't exactly a playoff juggernaut even in the best of times. So it wasn't outlandish that a clearly inferior team had them on the ropes. The Clippers were also a couple breathtakingly moronic coaching decisions by Dunleavy away from beating them in the second round that year.

Many forget that the suns were without Amare in 2006

Morb wrote:While Kobe put 23/6/6/4.5 tovs on 44/18/79% in first 4 games?

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A change in strategy from the RS to the playoffs.

Look at the games in the RS and see why Phil decided a change was needed to win that series:

2006 PHX vs LAL

G1 Phoenix 122 Los Angeles 112
Kobe 39 pts, 13-26 FG, 13-14 FT, 7 REB, 5 AST, 3 TOV

G2 Phoenix 106 Los Angeles 93
Kobe 37 pts, 12-33 FG, 9-9 FT, 2 REB, 2 AST, 4 TOV

G3 Phoenix 107 Los Angeles 96
Kobe 51 pts, 19-33 FG, 8-10 FT, 5 REB, 3 AST, 2 TOV

G4 Los Angeles 109 Phoenix 89
Kobe 43 pts, 11-28 FG, 20-23 FT, 8 REB, 5 AST, 1 TOV

The caveat to game four was that Nash and Raja Bell did not play....which was the only game the Lakers won.

The Lakers have no chance to win a shootout with the Suns. Zero. They have to slow the game down and use their superior size...unfortunately, you are depending on Kwame Brown and Lamar Odom to be consistent over a seven game series.

The Lakers won all the games where the score was under 100...the Suns won all the games where the score was over 100 pts. Its actually very interesting that the Lakers scored exactly 99 point in all three of their wins.

Game 6 was the do or die game for the Lakers...Kobe played magnificently, he scored 50 pts, 20-35 FG shooting, but the Lakers did not stick to the gameplan. They got caught up in a high scoring game and an unlucky bounce allowed Tim Thomas to hit a game tying 3pt shot. After that the Lakers lost their spirit...you could see it, they got smoked in overtime and that game seven was over before it ever began.

Having to depend on Lamar Odom and Kwame Brown in a G7 situation was too much. Lamar is more of a 3/4 option and Kwame was not mentally ready for a series like that....

Lakers were a rebound away from winning that series in 5. And like G35 said, it was Phil's strategy for Kobe to play like that, almost worked.

Probably the same reason hope the Cavs had 2-1 lead on Warriors in finals 2015 - Laziness and incompetence.

As the French say - Les Incompetom.

Looking at play by play this series could've easily been 2-2 and then the Suns winning in 6. They were up by 5 with 13 seconds left in game 4 and Lakers somehow got it to overtime and won. The Suns are not an overwhelmingly stacked team without Amare and may have felt his talent loss more in the playoffs than regular season when they patched it up pretty well with Diaw. The Lakers had the most dominant individual player in the league and even if his number weren't amazing the first four games no doubt the defensive attention helped his teammates.

Morb wrote:While Kobe put 23/6/6/4.5 tovs on 44/18/79% in first 4 games?

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1. The Suns were crippled with injuries by the time the playoffs rolled around. They'd lost Amar'e Stoudemire at the start of the year and suffered, but found a way to play like a 60+ win team with Kurt Thomas as their new center, only to lose him to injury too. As a result the Suns went into the playoffs playing like a .500 team with a glaring weakness in the front court.

2. This was also why in the 2nd round Elton Brand had the series of his life (30 PPG on 62% TS), proving without a doubt that if you had a strong front court attack, that was the way to beat these crippled Suns, and making it all the more insane that the Suns managed to win 2 series and fight hard in the 3rd.

3. This to say that the strategy the Lakers used in the Suns series which turned away from Kobe's volume scoring actually made a lot of sense in theory and it has to be seriously considered whether this was a major part of why the Lakers came so close to winning.

4. However, the Lakers had no Brand, and if you look at the Suns first and foremost as a .500 level team rather than a #2 seed level team, it makes sense also to ask whether Jackson's strategy actually backfired and prevented an "upset" that actually shouldn't have been seen as an upset.

migya wrote:Probably the same reason hope the Cavs had 2-1 lead on Warriors in finals 2015 - Laziness and incompetence.

As the French say - Les Incompetom.

that may be a bit too simplistic, the warriors turned the series around when they went small and took advantage of cavs big lineup with mozgov and thompson

before that the cavs slow grinding game was giving them issues

falcolombardi wrote:

migya wrote:Probably the same reason hope the Cavs had 2-1 lead on Warriors in finals 2015 - Laziness and incompetence.

As the French say - Les Incompetom.

that may be a bit too simplistic, the warriors turned the series around when they went small and took advantage of cavs big lineup with mozgov and thompson

before that the cavs slow grinding game was giving them issues

The Warriors won 67 games that season with that usual lineup. They should've handled it properly but they didn't put the effort in. They weren't that good those playoffs.

The Lakers in 2006 played 3277 Minutes with Kobe Bryant on the Floor.

They had an ORtg with Kobe of 111.4 that would qualify for 3rd best in the league.

The Lakers played 598 minutes without Kobe and had a ORtg without Kobe of 89.25 (Worst in the league by a lot)

That's a 22 point difference per 100 possessions

To give you a point of comparison (for offensive on/off):

17' Russ - 11 pt difference
21' Steph - 11 pt difference
18' Bron - 10 pt difference
19' Harden - 8 pt difference

In 2006 when Kobe was off the court, this is the lakers’ overall shooting/efficiency numbers:

43.4 eFG% (Last by 3.0%)
29.1 3P% (Last by 3.4%)
46.9 TS% (Last by 4.0%)

On - Off Differential:
+7.2 in eFG%
+6.9 in 3P%
+8.0 in TS%

One of the great offensive floor-raising performances ever I would say.

LukaTheGOAT wrote:The Lakers played 598 minutes without Kobe and had a ORtg without Kobe of 89.25 (Worst in the league by a lot)

Source?
On bk-ref 694 and 92.4.

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Homer38 wrote:

MartinToVaught wrote:2006 was the Suns' second-worst team of the SSOL era (only better than the 2008 team that lost in the first round and got D'Antoni fired), and they weren't exactly a playoff juggernaut even in the best of times. So it wasn't outlandish that a clearly inferior team had them on the ropes. The Clippers were also a couple breathtakingly moronic coaching decisions by Dunleavy away from beating them in the second round that year.

Many forget that the suns were without Amare in 2006

And without Kurt Thomas, they were at a 60w+ pace before he got injured and then they closed at 50%

Homer38 wrote:

MartinToVaught wrote:2006 was the Suns' second-worst team of the SSOL era (only better than the 2008 team that lost in the first round and got D'Antoni fired), and they weren't exactly a playoff juggernaut even in the best of times. So it wasn't outlandish that a clearly inferior team had them on the ropes. The Clippers were also a couple breathtakingly moronic coaching decisions by Dunleavy away from beating them in the second round that year.

Many forget that the suns were without Amare in 2006

Amar'e was a big miss, of course... but Boris Diaw, Kurt Thomas and Tim Thomas were able-bodied big men who could adequately replace his minutes in the Suns particular system. Nash was a great PG and the Suns had other talent too, players that some may scoff at today if you call them difference makers but they were really good at that time... notably Shawn Marion, Leandro Barbosa. Then they also used Raja Bell in much the same role as the Spurs used Bruce Bowen, as that defensive pest to foul and smother the opposing team's best guard. Point is, they were still very good without Amar'e in 2005-06, although not good enough to win the title. 2006-07 should have been the Sun's year though, I think they were 1000% robbed of being champions by the Spurs.

And Kobe should have been MVP of the 2005-06 season, by a mile. Best player in the game, 80 games played, 41 MPG, 35.4 PPG, All-NBA First Team Defense... elevating a roster of crap to the playoffs. Let's not forget that 81-point game, which should have highlighted a single player's importance to his team's fortunes. He also had a 60-point game, 4x 50-point games, 21x 40-point games, 29x 30-point games... and all that before offense was as free-flowing as it is now. The league just didn't want someone associated with rape winning it though.

LAL1947 wrote:

Homer38 wrote:

MartinToVaught wrote:2006 was the Suns' second-worst team of the SSOL era (only better than the 2008 team that lost in the first round and got D'Antoni fired), and they weren't exactly a playoff juggernaut even in the best of times. So it wasn't outlandish that a clearly inferior team had them on the ropes. The Clippers were also a couple breathtakingly moronic coaching decisions by Dunleavy away from beating them in the second round that year.

Many forget that the suns were without Amare in 2006

Amar'e was a big miss, of course... but Kurt and Tim Thomas were able-bodied big men who could somewhat adequately replace his minutes in the Suns particular system. Nash was a great PG and the Suns had other talent too, players that some may scoff at today if you call them difference makers but they were really good at that time... notably Shawn Marion, Leandro Barbosa. Then they also used Raja Bell in much the same role as the Spurs used Bruce Bowen, as that defensive pest to foul and smother the opposing team's best guard. Point is, they were still very good without Amar'e in 2005-06, although not good enough to win the title. 2006-07 should have been the Sun's year though, I think they were 1000% robbed of being champions by the Spurs.

And Kobe should have been MVP of the 2005-06 season, by a mile. Best player in the game, 80 games played, 41 MPG, 35.4 PPG, All-NBA First Team Defense... elevating a roster of crap to the playoffs. Let's not forget that 81-point game, which should have highlighted a single player's importance to his team's fortunes. He also had a 60-point game, 4x 50-point games, 21x 40-point games, 29x 30-point games... and all that before offense was as free-flowing as it is now. The league just didn't want someone associated with rape winning it though.

I wouldn't have anything against if Kobe won the MVP in 2006. He was certainly worthy candidate, though I wouldn't agree that Nash won only because of off-court circumstances. That said, using all-nba team as am argument here isn't the strongest point. Kobe was forced to carry massive offensive load, so nobody blames him for that but his defense wasn't good that season.

70sFan wrote:I wouldn't have anything against if Kobe won the MVP in 2006. He was certainly worthy candidate, though I wouldn't agree that Nash won only because of off-court circumstances. That said, using all-nba team as am argument here isn't the strongest point. Kobe was forced to carry massive offensive load, so nobody blames him for that but his defense wasn't good that season.

Well, let's agree to disagree about the off-court circumstances not impacting that year's MVP. Kobe did whatever he wanted to every team, every defender, every scheme and every system. That was dominance on an individual level that should have been rewarded and Nash wasn't a worthy back-to-back winner. The first time, I can understand, but not back-to-back.

Even if you think Kobe wasn't good on defense that season, he was still 2x the defender that Nash was. How come you aren't using defense against Nash?

Almost all the usually quoted metrics (PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP) favored Kobe, and gets discarded in this case too.