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so there was some controversy aboyt giannis self alley oop move being or not a travel

my understanding of the rules is that it is not a travel at all, but i have been wrong about some basketbsll rules before so i am open to being corrected in rules discussion

so i am wrong (or right) about it not being a travel?

Not claiming to know the rulebook but have always understood a to-self pass off the glass to be fine, don't particularly recall it ever being called a travel. Would think it would be somewhat hard to outlaw too without making refs jobs harder (making them judge intent on the offensive glass if a self-pass is illegal).

Odder is that I think I've seen (iirc) Maravich and Isiah just throw it up to themselves in what clearly isn't a shot and isn't off anything, jump, catch it and shoot layups. I think I've seen them in highlights and assumed they weren't called (but felt they should be). These could be false memories though.

It's not a travel anywhere.Since some people blame the NBA for allowing travelling,here is a video with college,NBA and FIBA refs saying this is legal.

Nothing wrong with Giannis' move based on what I'm seeing. Sets a pivot foot and then takes a single step.

The rules have gotten considerably looser over time, usually with the referees letting stars, then ordinary players, get away with travels then the NBA changed the rules to more closely match the way it was called.

https://official.nba.com/new-language-in-nba-rule-book-regarding-traveling-violations/

picko wrote:Nothing wrong with Giannis' move based on what I'm seeing. Sets a pivot foot and then takes a single step.

truly wrote:It's not a travel anywhere.Since some people blame the NBA for allowing travelling,here is a video with college,NBA and FIBA refs saying this is legal.

Read on Twitter

So Giannis establishes a pivot foot [his right foot], then steps thru with his left foot, plants it and lifts the right foot up before releasing the ball (swinging the right [pivot] foot thru just as he releases the ball toward the backboard).

I saw Jokic do similar [for a shot] in the playoffs a year or two ago and thought for sure this was a travel. So I looked up the NBA rule-book and was surprised to find I was mistaken. As your video clearly explains: they can pick up their pivot foot while still holding the ball provided they release the ball (on either a pass or shot) BEFORE that pivot foot returns to the ground.
Once I learned this, I honestly became surprised that more players don't take advantage of this in the post.


But that's not the part that makes me question if he travelled......

After releasing the ball toward the backboard, he then picks that left foot up to and comes to a jump-stop on both feet [i.e. that pivot foot has returned to the ground].
If his little pitch toward the backboard was not a shot, can it actually be considered a pass when it doesn't go to a teammate?

And if not, then he techinically didn't get rid of the ball before his pivot foot returned to the ground.


I mean, if this is legal, what prevents a player [other than the defense, obviously] from running all the way up the court without dribbling at all, but rather making the non-dribbling ball advancement "legal" just by throwing the ball up in the air and catching it again a few meters further on (toss it up again before you've taken more than two steps, repeatedly passing it to yourself like a kid playing catch alone, all the way up the court)?
That too would then be legal, wouldn't it?

This is where I'm fuzzy.
To me, the step-thru with the pivot foot is not at all the question here (as noted above, I've been down that road before and learned it is indeed legal).
It's that re-plant of the pivot foot (on the jump-stop) BEFORE he's shot it or [technically] passed it.

picko wrote:Nothing wrong with Giannis' move based on what I'm seeing. Sets a pivot foot and then takes a single step.

Pivot foot means that you've stopped moving with the ball, there is no extra steps allowed at that point. You can only lift a pivot foot to shoot or pass. Not a natural basketball move by Giannis there, clear travel.

Gooner wrote:

picko wrote:Nothing wrong with Giannis' move based on what I'm seeing. Sets a pivot foot and then takes a single step.

Pivot foot means that you've stopped moving with the ball, there is no extra steps allowed at that point. You can only lift a pivot foot to shoot or pass. Not a natural basketball move by Giannis there, clear travel.

There is a video in this very thread clearly stating that your position is incorrect.

There is nothing unnatural about the move - its a simple step through - and it is clearly not a travel.

picko wrote:

Gooner wrote:

picko wrote:Nothing wrong with Giannis' move based on what I'm seeing. Sets a pivot foot and then takes a single step.

Pivot foot means that you've stopped moving with the ball, there is no extra steps allowed at that point. You can only lift a pivot foot to shoot or pass. Not a natural basketball move by Giannis there, clear travel.

There is a video in this very thread clearly stating that your position is incorrect.

There is nothing unnatural about the move - its a simple step through - and it is clearly not a travel.

My point is that this is not natural move, not that it isn't allowed. NBA tolerates this although not consistently. Sometimes they call it a travel sometimes they don't, which is not right. NBA allows a lot these days and its not fundamental basketball anymore. These refs that are explaining the rule are going with NBA directions.

trex_8063 wrote:

But that's not the part that makes me question if he travelled......

After releasing the ball toward the backboard, he then picks that left foot up to and comes to a jump-stop on both feet [i.e. that pivot foot has returned to the ground].
If his little pitch toward the backboard was not a shot, can it actually be considered a pass when it doesn't go to a teammate?

And if not, then he techinically didn't get rid of the ball before his pivot foot returned to the ground.


I mean, if this is legal, what prevents a player [other than the defense, obviously] from running all the way up the court without dribbling at all, but rather making the non-dribbling ball advancement "legal" just by throwing the ball up in the air and catching it again a few meters further on (toss it up again before you've taken more than two steps, repeatedly passing it to yourself like a kid playing catch alone, all the way up the court)?
That too would then be legal, wouldn't it?

This is where I'm fuzzy.
To me, the step-thru with the pivot foot is not at all the question here (as noted above, I've been down that road before and learned it is indeed legal).
It's that re-plant of the pivot foot (on the jump-stop) BEFORE he's shot it or [technically] passed it.

If he had thrown the ball off the backboard, caught it and then landed (without the dunk / shot) then it would have been a travel.

Passing the ball to yourself without it hitting the backboard would be viewed as a travel. After passing it to yourself you'd need to immediately shoot / pass it on the catch before you hit the ground.

Gooner wrote:

picko wrote:

Gooner wrote:
Pivot foot means that you've stopped moving with the ball, there is no extra steps allowed at that point. You can only lift a pivot foot to shoot or pass. Not a natural basketball move by Giannis there, clear travel.

There is a video in this very thread clearly stating that your position is incorrect.

There is nothing unnatural about the move - its a simple step through - and it is clearly not a travel.

My point is that this is not natural move, not that it isn't allowed. NBA tolerates this although not consistently. Sometimes they call it a travel sometimes they don't, which is not right. NBA allows a lot these days and its not fundamental basketball anymore. These refs that are explaining the rule are going with NBA directions.

How can you explain that such moves were allowed even in the 1950s or 1960s? Was the NBA rigged back then as well? If so, maybe you should go back to the time when there was no backboard at all?

70sFan wrote:

Gooner wrote:

picko wrote:
There is a video in this very thread clearly stating that your position is incorrect.

There is nothing unnatural about the move - its a simple step through - and it is clearly not a travel.

My point is that this is not natural move, not that it isn't allowed. NBA tolerates this although not consistently. Sometimes they call it a travel sometimes they don't, which is not right. NBA allows a lot these days and its not fundamental basketball anymore. These refs that are explaining the rule are going with NBA directions.

How can you explain that such moves were allowed even in the 1950s or 1960s? Was the NBA rigged back then as well? If so, maybe you should go back to the time when there was no backboard at all?

Bad calls always happened and players always got away with traveling situationally, but this was always considered a travel. But now this is becoming official and if it continues, it will absolutely destroy the game of basketball. As a "70's fan", I would expect you to value basketball fundamentals more. I'm a basketball fan first, not a player fan. Unfortunately the NBA is geared towards the individual completely these days and it's not good for a team sport.

Let's just use logic. If this move becomes official and if everybody starts using it frequently, how is anyone gonna be able to defend the post? Please explain that if you can. How can you guard an offensive player in the post, body to body, against this move?

Gooner wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Gooner wrote:
My point is that this is not natural move, not that it isn't allowed. NBA tolerates this although not consistently. Sometimes they call it a travel sometimes they don't, which is not right. NBA allows a lot these days and its not fundamental basketball anymore. These refs that are explaining the rule are going with NBA directions.

How can you explain that such moves were allowed even in the 1950s or 1960s? Was the NBA rigged back then as well? If so, maybe you should go back to the time when there was no backboard at all?

Bad calls always happened and players always got away with traveling situationally, but this was always considered a travel. But now this is becoming official and if it continues, it will absolutely destroy the game of basketball. As a "70's fan", I would expect you to value basketball fundamentals more. I'm a basketball fan first, not a player fan. Unfortunately the NBA is geared towards the individual completely these days and it's not good for a team sport.

Let's just use logic. If this move becomes official and if everybody starts using it frequently, how is anyone gonna be able to defend the post? Please explain that if you can. How can you guard an offensive player in the post, body to body, against this move?

I value basketball fundamentals as much as anybody and I hate a lot of changes that happened throughout the history. I hate the whole idea of gather step, I hate double step backs or carrying the ball. This move isn't this kind of plays though, it was always accepted that you can lift your pivot foot as long as you won't establish it again and you have to release the ball after that.

Again, this move was always legal. It's not a game-destroyer, you can't use this move consistently to beat defender. I am afraid that you never played basketball at even the lowest level if you think that you can't defend offensive player performing that move. Have you ever heard about stepthrough up and under from the post? This move has been performed since the beginning of the league. Nobody broke the game because of that.

For someone who calls himself a basketball fundamentals fan, it seems that you don't know that much about it.

70sFan wrote:

Gooner wrote:

70sFan wrote:How can you explain that such moves were allowed even in the 1950s or 1960s? Was the NBA rigged back then as well? If so, maybe you should go back to the time when there was no backboard at all?

Bad calls always happened and players always got away with traveling situationally, but this was always considered a travel. But now this is becoming official and if it continues, it will absolutely destroy the game of basketball. As a "70's fan", I would expect you to value basketball fundamentals more. I'm a basketball fan first, not a player fan. Unfortunately the NBA is geared towards the individual completely these days and it's not good for a team sport.

Let's just use logic. If this move becomes official and if everybody starts using it frequently, how is anyone gonna be able to defend the post? Please explain that if you can. How can you guard an offensive player in the post, body to body, against this move?

I value basketball fundamentals as much as anybody and I hate a lot of changes that happened throughout the history. I hate the whole idea of gather step, I hate double step backs or carrying the ball. This move isn't this kind of plays though, it was always accepted that you can lift your pivot foot as long as you won't establish it again and you have to release the ball after that.

Again, this move was always legal. It's not a game-destroyer, you can't use this move consistently to beat defender. I am afraid that you never played basketball at even the lowest level if you think that you can't defend offensive player performing that move. Have you ever heard about stepthrough up and under from the post? This move has been performed since the beginning of the league. Nobody broke the game because of that.

For someone who calls himself a basketball fundamentals fan, it seems that you don't know that much about it.

This argument is not about whether you can lift your pivot foot or not. But what needs to be understood that pivot means a stop. Let's use logic again, you are pivoting because you are at the spot. There is no more steps after that, you have to pass or shoot. If you are allowed to take that step, what's the point of stopping and pivoting? You can just take that third step without stopping on a spot.

I've played a lot of basketball and that's why I know this is not a natural move. I played against a guy once ho used that move and I called him for it. You can't contest the shot properly and you would know that if you played any basketball at all.

Gooner wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Gooner wrote:
Bad calls always happened and players always got away with traveling situationally, but this was always considered a travel. But now this is becoming official and if it continues, it will absolutely destroy the game of basketball. As a "70's fan", I would expect you to value basketball fundamentals more. I'm a basketball fan first, not a player fan. Unfortunately the NBA is geared towards the individual completely these days and it's not good for a team sport.

Let's just use logic. If this move becomes official and if everybody starts using it frequently, how is anyone gonna be able to defend the post? Please explain that if you can. How can you guard an offensive player in the post, body to body, against this move?

I value basketball fundamentals as much as anybody and I hate a lot of changes that happened throughout the history. I hate the whole idea of gather step, I hate double step backs or carrying the ball. This move isn't this kind of plays though, it was always accepted that you can lift your pivot foot as long as you won't establish it again and you have to release the ball after that.

Again, this move was always legal. It's not a game-destroyer, you can't use this move consistently to beat defender. I am afraid that you never played basketball at even the lowest level if you think that you can't defend offensive player performing that move. Have you ever heard about stepthrough up and under from the post? This move has been performed since the beginning of the league. Nobody broke the game because of that.

For someone who calls himself a basketball fundamentals fan, it seems that you don't know that much about it.

This argument is not about whether you can lift your pivot foot or not. But what needs to be understood that pivot means a stop. Let's use logic again, you are pivoting because you are at the spot. There is no more steps after that, you have to pass or shoot. If you are allowed to take that step, what's the point of stopping and pivoting? You can just take that third step without stopping on a spot.

I've played a lot of basketball and that's why I know this is not a natural move. I played against a guy once ho used that move and I called him for it. You can't contest the shot properly and you would know that if you played any basketball at all.

I don't think you have any idea of what you are talking about. It doesn't give you that much of an advantage, which is why players rarely use it.

70sFan wrote:

Gooner wrote:

70sFan wrote:I value basketball fundamentals as much as anybody and I hate a lot of changes that happened throughout the history. I hate the whole idea of gather step, I hate double step backs or carrying the ball. This move isn't this kind of plays though, it was always accepted that you can lift your pivot foot as long as you won't establish it again and you have to release the ball after that.

Again, this move was always legal. It's not a game-destroyer, you can't use this move consistently to beat defender. I am afraid that you never played basketball at even the lowest level if you think that you can't defend offensive player performing that move. Have you ever heard about stepthrough up and under from the post? This move has been performed since the beginning of the league. Nobody broke the game because of that.

For someone who calls himself a basketball fundamentals fan, it seems that you don't know that much about it.

This argument is not about whether you can lift your pivot foot or not. But what needs to be understood that pivot means a stop. Let's use logic again, you are pivoting because you are at the spot. There is no more steps after that, you have to pass or shoot. If you are allowed to take that step, what's the point of stopping and pivoting? You can just take that third step without stopping on a spot.

I've played a lot of basketball and that's why I know this is not a natural move. I played against a guy once ho used that move and I called him for it. You can't contest the shot properly and you would know that if you played any basketball at all.

I don't think you have any idea of what you are talking about. It doesn't give you that much of an advantage, which is why players rarely use it.

Stop it. Look what Giannis did on this play standing far away from the basket. Imagine if they do it consitently when posting up closer to the basket. It's an impossible move to stop and it makes a mockery of the game.

Gooner wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Gooner wrote:
This argument is not about whether you can lift your pivot foot or not. But what needs to be understood that pivot means a stop. Let's use logic again, you are pivoting because you are at the spot. There is no more steps after that, you have to pass or shoot. If you are allowed to take that step, what's the point of stopping and pivoting? You can just take that third step without stopping on a spot.

I've played a lot of basketball and that's why I know this is not a natural move. I played against a guy once ho used that move and I called him for it. You can't contest the shot properly and you would know that if you played any basketball at all.

I don't think you have any idea of what you are talking about. It doesn't give you that much of an advantage, which is why players rarely use it.

Stop it. Look what Giannis did on this play standing far away from the basket. Imagine if they do it consitently when posting up closer to the basket. It's an impossible move to stop and it makes a mockery of the game.

Giannis lives so much into your head i am sure you smell his farts.
Bad thing is you have to live with this at least for the next 8 years.

Gooner wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Gooner wrote:
This argument is not about whether you can lift your pivot foot or not. But what needs to be understood that pivot means a stop. Let's use logic again, you are pivoting because you are at the spot. There is no more steps after that, you have to pass or shoot. If you are allowed to take that step, what's the point of stopping and pivoting? You can just take that third step without stopping on a spot.

I've played a lot of basketball and that's why I know this is not a natural move. I played against a guy once ho used that move and I called him for it. You can't contest the shot properly and you would know that if you played any basketball at all.

I don't think you have any idea of what you are talking about. It doesn't give you that much of an advantage, which is why players rarely use it.

Stop it. Look what Giannis did on this play standing far away from the basket. Imagine if they do it consitently when posting up closer to the basket. It's an impossible move to stop and it makes a mockery of the game.

Do you know why players don't do that consistently? Because very few players are able to take advantage of such situations, because Giannis is extremely athletic. If it's so easy, we'd see that move performed a lot by less athletic players.

I don't have to imagine using such footwork in the post, because I have seen it many times. Players perform up and unders consistently down low for decades.

GeoBar wrote:

Gooner wrote:

70sFan wrote:I don't think you have any idea of what you are talking about. It doesn't give you that much of an advantage, which is why players rarely use it.

Stop it. Look what Giannis did on this play standing far away from the basket. Imagine if they do it consitently when posting up closer to the basket. It's an impossible move to stop and it makes a mockery of the game.

Giannis lives so much into your head i am sure you smell his farts.
Bad thing is you have to live with this at least for the next 8 years.

I just call it as I see it. I'm a basketball fan, not a Giannis fan. I've provided argumentation for every statement that I made, you are just emotional.

Gooner wrote:

GeoBar wrote:

Gooner wrote:
Stop it. Look what Giannis did on this play standing far away from the basket. Imagine if they do it consitently when posting up closer to the basket. It's an impossible move to stop and it makes a mockery of the game.

Giannis lives so much into your head i am sure you smell his farts.
Bad thing is you have to live with this at least for the next 8 years.

I just call it as I see it. I'm a basketball fan, not a Giannis fan. I've provided argumentation for every statement that I made, you are just emotional.

Of course i m emotional,i am a human being.Of course you are not a Giannis fan,you are a Giannis hater.