RealGM

Are the Mavs better or worse? Could they beat the Suns?

Luka is far more developed and skilled than 2008 LeBron. LeBron was obviously the far more capable defender but i dont think he could have carried these Mavs the way Luka does. LeBron needs more talent and shooting help to succeed.

LesGrossman wrote:Luka is far more developed and skilled than 2008 LeBron. LeBron was obviously the far more capable defender but i dont think he could have carried these Mavs the way Luka does. LeBron needs more talent and shooting help to succeed.

you say this as if 2022 mavs didnt have much stronger spacing than 2008 cavs

falcolombardi wrote:

LesGrossman wrote:Luka is far more developed and skilled than 2008 LeBron. LeBron was obviously the far more capable defender but i dont think he could have carried these Mavs the way Luka does. LeBron needs more talent and shooting help to succeed.

you say this as if 2022 mavs didnt have much stronger spacing than 2008 cavs

The 2008 Cavs had 96.7 points per 100 without LBJ in 2008.It was brutal.The spacing were brutal too for much of the year even if they had so many wide open shot

LesGrossman wrote:Luka is far more developed and skilled than 2008 LeBron. LeBron was obviously the far more capable defender but i dont think he could have carried these Mavs the way Luka does. LeBron needs more talent and shooting help to succeed.

What? The Mavericks and NBA as a whole has significantly more spacing than 2008 LeBron did, who was a top 3-4 player that season.

The Mavericks would theoretically be better, I'm not sure by how much and not sure it is enough to overcome the Phoenix Suns. I'd have the 2008 Celtics over the 2022 Suns, which means there is a non-zero chance LeBron and this Mavericks are capable and do beat this Suns team. There is also a real possibility the Mavericks beat the Suns this season.

Colbinii wrote:

LesGrossman wrote:Luka is far more developed and skilled than 2008 LeBron. LeBron was obviously the far more capable defender but i dont think he could have carried these Mavs the way Luka does. LeBron needs more talent and shooting help to succeed.

What? The Mavericks and NBA as a whole has significantly more spacing than 2008 LeBron did, who was a top 3-4 player that season.

The Mavericks would theoretically be better, I'm not sure by how much and not sure it is enough to overcome the Phoenix Suns. I'd have the 2008 Celtics over the 2022 Suns, which means there is a non-zero chance LeBron and this Mavericks are capable and do beat this Suns team. There is also a real possibility the Mavericks beat the Suns this season.

also, for all luka is more refined in his skillset than young lebron, he is not a more effective offensive player than he was

2008 lebron: 30 pts a game on +3 rTS with 7 assists, 1.8 offensive boards and 11.4% turnover percentage

2022 luka: 28 pts a game on +0.5 rTS with 8.7 assists, 0.9 offensive boards and 15% turnover percentage

Drew Gooden was the PF of the cavs in the first 4-5 month of the season.After that it was Ben Wallace.So much for the spacing

falcolombardi wrote:

Colbinii wrote:

LesGrossman wrote:Luka is far more developed and skilled than 2008 LeBron. LeBron was obviously the far more capable defender but i dont think he could have carried these Mavs the way Luka does. LeBron needs more talent and shooting help to succeed.

What? The Mavericks and NBA as a whole has significantly more spacing than 2008 LeBron did, who was a top 3-4 player that season.

The Mavericks would theoretically be better, I'm not sure by how much and not sure it is enough to overcome the Phoenix Suns. I'd have the 2008 Celtics over the 2022 Suns, which means there is a non-zero chance LeBron and this Mavericks are capable and do beat this Suns team. There is also a real possibility the Mavericks beat the Suns this season.

also, for all luka is more refined in his skillset than young lebron, he is not a more effective offensive player than he was

2008 lebron: 30 pts a game on +3 rTS with 7 assists, 1.8 offensive boards and 11.4% turnover percentage

2022 luka: 28 pts a game on +0.5 rTS with 8.7 assists, 0.9 offensive boards and 15% turnover percentage

Are you using regular seasons' stats to discuss playoffs ? Even so, you did not account for the 14% more playing time and defensive rebound to Luka's advantage. Luka upped playing time, scoring volume, and scoring efficiency in the playoffs. His refined post game is more resilient than young LeBron's (28.2ppg at 41.4/25.7/71.3 shooting).

That said, 2008 today would be unstoppable. He would have a few highlights featuring him blowing by CP3, dunking the ball with Bridges on his back, Booker on his arm, and Crowder on the floor. Defensively also better.

Homer38 wrote:Drew Gooden was the PF of the cavs in the first 4-5 month of the season.After that it was Ben Wallace.So much for the spacing

I think switching LeBron with Luka would also make 2008 Cavs better. Z, Wallace, and Varejao are the anti of Powell, Maxi, and Bertans in terms of rebounding and defense.

dygaction wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:

Colbinii wrote:
What? The Mavericks and NBA as a whole has significantly more spacing than 2008 LeBron did, who was a top 3-4 player that season.

The Mavericks would theoretically be better, I'm not sure by how much and not sure it is enough to overcome the Phoenix Suns. I'd have the 2008 Celtics over the 2022 Suns, which means there is a non-zero chance LeBron and this Mavericks are capable and do beat this Suns team. There is also a real possibility the Mavericks beat the Suns this season.

also, for all luka is more refined in his skillset than young lebron, he is not a more effective offensive player than he was

2008 lebron: 30 pts a game on +3 rTS with 7 assists, 1.8 offensive boards and 11.4% turnover percentage

2022 luka: 28 pts a game on +0.5 rTS with 8.7 assists, 0.9 offensive boards and 15% turnover percentage

Are you using regular seasons' stats to discuss playoffs ? Even so, you did not account for the 14% more playing time and defensive rebound to Luka's advantage. Luka upped playing time, scoring volume, and scoring efficiency in the playoffs. His refined post game is more resilient than young LeBron's (28.2ppg at 41.4/25.7/71.3 shooting).

That said, 2008 today would be unstoppable. He would have a few highlights featuring him blowing by CP3, dunking the ball with Bridges on his back, Booker on his arm, and Crowder on the floor. Defensively also better.

the idea was not showing every stat, but a offensive production overview, and defendive rebounds are not part of offense

lebron playing more minutes is not a bad thingh, besides he played in a slower league so the difference in possesions is minimal

at no point was the discussion about playoffs specifically but even if it was luka 6 games sample size is fairly small to take conclusions from
(unless you want to include last 2 seasons playoffs and other lebron seasons but then it wouldnt be a straight 2008 vs 2022 comparision anymore)

falcolombardi wrote:

dygaction wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:
also, for all luka is more refined in his skillset than young lebron, he is not a more effective offensive player than he was

2008 lebron: 30 pts a game on +3 rTS with 7 assists, 1.8 offensive boards and 11.4% turnover percentage

2022 luka: 28 pts a game on +0.5 rTS with 8.7 assists, 0.9 offensive boards and 15% turnover percentage

Are you using regular seasons' stats to discuss playoffs ? Even so, you did not account for the 14% more playing time and defensive rebound to Luka's advantage. Luka upped playing time, scoring volume, and scoring efficiency in the playoffs. His refined post game is more resilient than young LeBron's (28.2ppg at 41.4/25.7/71.3 shooting).

That said, 2008 today would be unstoppable. He would have a few highlights featuring him blowing by CP3, dunking the ball with Bridges on his back, Booker on his arm, and Crowder on the floor. Defensively also better.

the idea was not showing every stat, but a offensive production overview, and defendive rebounds are not part of offense

lebron playing more minutes is not a bad thingh, besides he played in a slower league so the difference in possesions is minimal

at no point was the discussion about playoffs specifically but even if it was luka 6 games sample size is fairly small to take conclusions from
(unless you want to include last 2 seasons playoffs and other lebron seasons but then it wouldnt be a straight 2008 vs 2022 comparision anymore)

You cannot only adjust league average rTS but not considering playing time shift over era at all. Per 100 is more telling:
Doncic: 40.4/1.2ORB/12.4a/6.4TO
James: 39.6/2.3ORB/9.5a/4.5TO

08 LeBron feels very like 19/20 Giannis, unstoppable during the regular season but can be slowed down in the playoffs. He took another leap in 09 and developed post games even later. Luka's playoff resilience has been proven over the past 3 years 19 games. He was able to up his playing time, scoring volume, and efficiency at the same time. Defense, free throw, and stamina are what he needs to work on.

dygaction wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:

dygaction wrote:
Are you using regular seasons' stats to discuss playoffs ? Even so, you did not account for the 14% more playing time and defensive rebound to Luka's advantage. Luka upped playing time, scoring volume, and scoring efficiency in the playoffs. His refined post game is more resilient than young LeBron's (28.2ppg at 41.4/25.7/71.3 shooting).

That said, 2008 today would be unstoppable. He would have a few highlights featuring him blowing by CP3, dunking the ball with Bridges on his back, Booker on his arm, and Crowder on the floor. Defensively also better.

the idea was not showing every stat, but a offensive production overview, and defendive rebounds are not part of offense

lebron playing more minutes is not a bad thingh, besides he played in a slower league so the difference in possesions is minimal

at no point was the discussion about playoffs specifically but even if it was luka 6 games sample size is fairly small to take conclusions from
(unless you want to include last 2 seasons playoffs and other lebron seasons but then it wouldnt be a straight 2008 vs 2022 comparision anymore)

You cannot only adjust league average rTS but not considering playing time shift over era at all. Per 100 is more telling:
Doncic: 40.4/1.2ORB/12.4a/6.4TO
James: 39.6/2.3ORB/9.5a/4.5TO

08 LeBron feels very like 19/20 Giannis, unstoppable during the regular season but can be slowed down in the playoffs. He took another leap in 09 and developed post games even later. Luka's playoff resilience has been proven over the past 3 years 19 games. He was able to up his playing time, scoring volume, and efficiency at the same time. Defense, free throw, and stamina are what he needs to work on.

So James scores as many points as Doncic per possessions in more minutes on better efficiency, while having better turnover economy. Add to that defense and it's clear that James was better player in the RS than Doncic.

Playoffs is another matter, but we have to wait for the rest of Doncic season. So far he only played 6 games.

70sFan wrote:

dygaction wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:
the idea was not showing every stat, but a offensive production overview, and defendive rebounds are not part of offense

lebron playing more minutes is not a bad thingh, besides he played in a slower league so the difference in possesions is minimal

at no point was the discussion about playoffs specifically but even if it was luka 6 games sample size is fairly small to take conclusions from
(unless you want to include last 2 seasons playoffs and other lebron seasons but then it wouldnt be a straight 2008 vs 2022 comparision anymore)

You cannot only adjust league average rTS but not considering playing time shift over era at all. Per 100 is more telling:
Doncic: 40.4/1.2ORB/12.4a/6.4TO
James: 39.6/2.3ORB/9.5a/4.5TO

08 LeBron feels very like 19/20 Giannis, unstoppable during the regular season but can be slowed down in the playoffs. He took another leap in 09 and developed post games even later. Luka's playoff resilience has been proven over the past 3 years 19 games. He was able to up his playing time, scoring volume, and efficiency at the same time. Defense, free throw, and stamina are what he needs to work on.

So James scores as many points as Doncic per possessions in more minutes on better efficiency, while having better turnover economy. Add to that defense and it's clear that James was better player in the RS than Doncic.

Playoffs is another matter, but we have to wait for the rest of Doncic season. So far he only played 6 games.

So you just repeated what I said but omitting Luka has a few more assists (and rebounds) Don't be so insecure, I even said in another reply that his game would translate very well against the Suns.

dygaction wrote:

70sFan wrote:

dygaction wrote:
You cannot only adjust league average rTS but not considering playing time shift over era at all. Per 100 is more telling:
Doncic: 40.4/1.2ORB/12.4a/6.4TO
James: 39.6/2.3ORB/9.5a/4.5TO

08 LeBron feels very like 19/20 Giannis, unstoppable during the regular season but can be slowed down in the playoffs. He took another leap in 09 and developed post games even later. Luka's playoff resilience has been proven over the past 3 years 19 games. He was able to up his playing time, scoring volume, and efficiency at the same time. Defense, free throw, and stamina are what he needs to work on.

So James scores as many points as Doncic per possessions in more minutes on better efficiency, while having better turnover economy. Add to that defense and it's clear that James was better player in the RS than Doncic.

Playoffs is another matter, but we have to wait for the rest of Doncic season. So far he only played 6 games.

So you just repeated what I said but omitting Luka has a few more assists (and rebounds) Don't be so insecure, I even said in another reply that his game would translate very well against the Suns.

Rebounds doesn't matter and I already included assists in turnover economy (better ast/tov ratio). I'm not insecure, I just gave my thoughts about this topic.

Edit: didn't you say in another thread that 2008 James rebounding rate was reduced by playing next to elite rebounders? Doncic doesn't play next to elite rebounders, so how can you say that Luka is better rebounder?

For the playoffs,Luka(for now)did not face the 2008 celtics defense like LBJ did....

Homer38 wrote:For the playoffs,Luka(for now)did not face the 2008 celtics defense like LBJ did....

The 2008 roster is also significantly worse than this Mavericks roster.

dygaction wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:

dygaction wrote:
Are you using regular seasons' stats to discuss playoffs ? Even so, you did not account for the 14% more playing time and defensive rebound to Luka's advantage. Luka upped playing time, scoring volume, and scoring efficiency in the playoffs. His refined post game is more resilient than young LeBron's (28.2ppg at 41.4/25.7/71.3 shooting).

That said, 2008 today would be unstoppable. He would have a few highlights featuring him blowing by CP3, dunking the ball with Bridges on his back, Booker on his arm, and Crowder on the floor. Defensively also better.

the idea was not showing every stat, but a offensive production overview, and defendive rebounds are not part of offense

lebron playing more minutes is not a bad thingh, besides he played in a slower league so the difference in possesions is minimal

at no point was the discussion about playoffs specifically but even if it was luka 6 games sample size is fairly small to take conclusions from
(unless you want to include last 2 seasons playoffs and other lebron seasons but then it wouldnt be a straight 2008 vs 2022 comparision anymore)

You cannot only adjust league average rTS but not considering playing time shift over era at all. Per 100 is more telling:
Doncic: 40.4/1.2ORB/12.4a/6.4TO
James: 39.6/2.3ORB/9.5a/4.5TO

08 LeBron feels very like 19/20 Giannis

I absolutely agree. As in "a better player than Luka that would make Dallas' defense scary scary scary".

And you can always lean on Brunson on ball, which is probably not a bad thing either. About as good of an offensive rating with him vs with Luka (slightly hot shooting alert).

Just one game but in game 4,outside of Luka,the Mavs were 19-33 on 3 points.Their spacing is just fine

Homer38 wrote:Just one game but in game 4,outside of Luka,the Mavs were 19-33 on 3 points.Their spacing is just fine

i think they made more 3's than 2008 cavs took in an average game

Brunson/Dinwiddie
Bullock/THJ
LBJ/Green
DFS/Bertans
Kleber/Powell

That's a contender, amazing spacing, insane perimeter defense and switchability, great help defense that will cover for lack of defensive anchor.