Alltime 11-20: Make your case

[migya]

Much talk is about the top 10, let's talk about the next 10. Give your 11-20 list and make a case for those players:


Mine (I only include nba career) -

11. Karl Malone- Amazing peak and longevity. Great on both ends and an ironman that played almost every game in his career. Won consistently year after year with little talent on his teams. 3rd alltime total points, 7th in rebounds, 12th in steals. For playoffs, 7th in total points and rebounds, 16th in steals. 7th alltime per game in total points and rebounds, 16th in steals. 11th in per game points. 2 time mvp, 14 time Allnba, 4 time Defensive team, 14 time Allstar.

12. Jerry West- Amazing peak and longevity. Great on both ends. Won consistently year after year. 6th alltime in per game points. For playoffs, 9th alltime in total points, 15th in assists, 5th in points per game. Fmvp (on losing team) 12 time Allnba, 5 time Defensive team, 14 time Allstar. One of the only players (I can only think of two others) to lead the nba in scoring and assists in during their career.

13. Oscar Robertson- Amazing peak and longevity. Is along ther greatest offensive players ever and got alot of assists with less talent on his teams than others. 13th alltime total points, 8th in assists, 10th in per game points, 3rd assists. For playoffs, 4th in per game assists. 1 time mvp, 6 time assists leader, 11 time Allnba, 12 Allstar, 2nd most triple doubles ever.

14. David Robinson- His peak and prime was just too great, his impact top 10 if not top 5 in history. His longevity isn't big, but truth is his prime was from his rookie season to 2000, ten seasons as he missed one to injury. More than anyone ranked ahead of him alltime, he had the least talent on his teams as n carried them year after year to being among the top teams. He is a top 5 defender ever. 6th alltime in total blocks, 5th in blocks per game, for playoffs, 4th alltime in blocks and 5th alltime in blocks per game. For ten year primes, he is among the best scorers and rebounders, as well as in steals among bigs. 1 time mvp, 1 time dpoy, 10 time Allnba, 8 time Defensive team, 10 time Allstar.

15. Kobe Bryant- He is hard to evaluate. His stats look great but his impact wasn't as big. His prime was longer than most at fourteen years, from 2000 to 2013, though he wasn't the big scorer in 2000. He shouldn't have been selected to that many allstar games. 4th alltime in total points, 16th in steals, 12th in per game scoring, for playoffs, 4th in total points, 11th in assists, 6th in steals, 18th per game points. 1time mvp, 15 time Allnba, 12 time Defensive team, 18 time Allstar.

16. Elgin Baylor- Don't see how this man isn't ranked high by most. He was as much as important to his team's success as West. His peak was amazingly good and he was at that level for eleven years. His injury may have cut short his career. 3rd in per game points, 9th in rebounds. For playoffs, 18th total points, 10th in rebounds, 9th in per games points, 11th in rebounds. 10 time Allnba, 11 time Allstar. 20th most triple doubles ever.

17. Moses Malone- His peak and prime was too good. His longevity isn't huge but is really thirteen years, from 1978 to 1990, not more or less than most alltime greats. He had relatively little talent on his Houston teams and managed to do well, making one finals appearance. 10th alltime in total points, 5th in rebounds, for playoffs, 15th in total rebounds, 8th rebounds per game. 3 time mvp, 1 time fmvp, 8 time Allnba, 2 time Defensive team, 13 time Allstar.

18. Kevin Garnett- His impact is more than his stats but still, Garnett is difficult to evaluate, mostly because he realistically didn't have as much longevity as many seem to think and his peak isn't as high and as long as some other greats. His prime or relevant seasons are from 1999 to 2008, it is plausible to include 2009 and maybe 2011 but that is not on numbers but impact and their are many players in history who had similar impact with such numbers, so those seasons are not relevant for use in a case for top 20 alltime. It's his defense that raises his worth really. He wasn't worthy of that many allstar game selections. 18th alltime in total points, 9th in rebounds. For playoffs, 16th in total rebounds. 1 time mvp, 9 time Allnba, 12 time Defensive team, 15 Allstar.

19. Charles Barkley- Found it hard not to place him at #18. His peak and prime was great, from 1986 to 1997, which is good longevity. Very good efficiency in scoring. 19th alltime in total rebounds, 20th in rebounds per game, for playoffs, 15th in total rebounds, 13th in rebounds per game. 1 time mvp, 11 time Allnba, 11 time Allstar.

20. Patrick Ewing- A number of players could placed here but Ewing's level on both ends is better than anyone else. His peak and longevity are good, right from his rookie season he was very good. 1997 was really his last prime season. He also had little talent on his teams and carried them to a number of good winning seasons. 24th alltime in total points, 25th in total rebounds, 7th total blocks, 11th per game in blocks, for playoffs, 24th total rebounds, 7th total blocks, 11th per game in blocks.

HM - Nowitzki, Stockton, CP, Durant, Erving, Drexler, Wade

[Stalwart]

The Kobe bias is just subconscious at this point.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Much talk is about the top 10, let's talk about the next 10. Give your 11-20 list and make a case for those players:


Mine (I only include nba career) -

11. Karl Malone- Amazing peak and longevity. Great on both ends and an ironman that played almost every game in his career. Won consistently year after year with little talent on his teams. 3rd alltime total points, 7th in rebounds, 12th in steals. For playoffs, 7th in total points and rebounds, 16th in steals. 7th alltime per game in total points and rebounds, 16th in steals. 11th in per game points. 2 time mvp, 14 time Allnba, 4 time Defensive team, 14 time Allstar.

12. Jerry West- Amazing peak and longevity. Great on both ends. Won consistently year after year. 6th alltime in per game points. For playoffs, 9th alltime in total points, 15th in assists, 5th in points per game. Fmvp (on losing team) 12 time Allnba, 5 time Defensive team, 14 time Allstar. One of the only players (I can only think of two others) to lead the nba in scoring and assists in during their career.

13. Oscar Robertson- Amazing peak and longevity. Is along ther greatest offensive players ever and got alot of assists with less talent on his teams than others. 13th alltime total points, 8th in assists, 10th in per game points, 3rd assists. For playoffs, 4th in per game assists. 1 time mvp, 6 time assists leader, 11 time Allnba, 12 Allstar, 2nd most triple doubles ever.

14. David Robinson- His peak and prime was just too great, his impact top 10 if not top 5 in history. His longevity isn't big, but truth is his prime was from his rookie season to 2000, ten seasons as he missed one to injury. More than anyone ranked ahead of him alltime, he had the least talent on his teams as n carried them year after year to being among the top teams. He is a top 5 defender ever. 6th alltime in total blocks, 5th in blocks per game, for playoffs, 4th alltime in blocks and 5th alltime in blocks per game. For ten year primes, he is among the best scorers and rebounders, as well as in steals among bigs. 1 time mvp, 1 time dpoy, 10 time Allnba, 8 time Defensive team, 10 time Allstar.

15. Kobe Bryant- He is hard to evaluate. His stats look great but his impact wasn't as big. His prime was longer than most at fourteen years, from 2000 to 2013, though he wasn't the big scorer in 2000. He shouldn't have been selected to that many allstar games. 4th alltime in total points, 16th in steals, 12th in per game scoring, for playoffs, 4th in total points, 11th in assists, 6th in steals, 18th per game points. 1time mvp, 15 time Allnba, 12 time Defensive team, 18 time Allstar.

16. Elgin Baylor- Don't see how this man isn't ranked high by most. He was as much as important to his team's success as West. His peak was amazingly good and he was at that level for eleven years. His injury may have cut short his career. 3rd in per game points, 9th in rebounds. For playoffs, 18th total points, 10th in rebounds, 9th in per games points, 11th in rebounds. 10 time Allnba, 11 time Allstar. 20th most triple doubles ever.

17. Moses Malone- His peak and prime was too good. His longevity isn't huge but is really thirteen years, from 1978 to 1990, not more or less than most alltime greats. He had relatively little talent on his Houston teams and managed to do well, making one finals appearance. 10th alltime in total points, 5th in rebounds, for playoffs, 15th in total rebounds, 8th rebounds per game. 3 time mvp, 1 time fmvp, 8 time Allnba, 2 time Defensive team, 13 time Allstar.

18. Kevin Garnett- His impact is more than his stats but still, Garnett is difficult to evaluate, mostly because he realistically didn't have as much longevity as many seem to think and his peak isn't as high and as long as some other greats. His prime or relevant seasons are from 1999 to 2008, it is plausible to include 2009 and maybe 2011 but that is not on numbers but impact and their are many players in history who had similar impact with such numbers, so those seasons are not relevant for use in a case for top 20 alltime. It's his defense that raises his worth really. He wasn't worthy of that many allstar game selections. 18th alltime in total points, 9th in rebounds. For playoffs, 16th in total rebounds. 1 time mvp, 9 time Allnba, 12 time Defensive team, 15 Allstar.

19. Charles Barkley- Found it hard not to place him at #18. His peak and prime was great, from 1986 to 1997, which is good longevity. Very good efficiency in scoring. 19th alltime in total rebounds, 20th in rebounds per game, for playoffs, 15th in total rebounds, 13th in rebounds per game. 1 time mvp, 11 time Allnba, 11 time Allstar.

20. Patrick Ewing- A number of players could placed here but Ewing's level on both ends is better than anyone else. His peak and longevity are good, right from his rookie season he was very good. 1997 was really his last prime season. He also had little talent on his teams and carried them to a number of good winning seasons. 24th alltime in total points, 25th in total rebounds, 7th total blocks, 11th per game in blocks, for playoffs, 24th total rebounds, 7th total blocks, 11th per game in blocks.

HM - Nowitzki, Stockton, CP, Durant, Erving, Drexler, Wade

I think KG has a good argument for being a legit all-star from 97 to 2012, and you could even throw in 2013 personally. By 99, he was solid all-nba level I would probably level.

Also I don't think of Malone's peak as being that abnormal for a top 20 guy. I think this board might be in agreement with me based on the latest peaks project, but that is just my opinion.

Btw, where would you have Steph? Would he be after the HM?

[70sFan]

The Kobe bias is just subconscious at this point.

migya almost certainly have Kobe inside his top 10, so are you suggesting that having Kobe in the top 10 means you are biased? Or are you always trying to find a Kobe-related narrative in every single thread?

[Stalwart]

The Kobe bias is just subconscious at this point.

migya almost certainly have Kobe inside his top 10, so are you suggesting that having Kobe in the top 10 means you are biased? Or are you always trying to find a Kobe-related narrative in every single thread?

I just couldn't help but to notice the negative and discrediting tone with Kobe's case compared to the others. Just illustrates the subconscious biases that run through certain segments of the basketball community.

[migya]

Much talk is about the top 10, let's talk about the next 10. Give your 11-20 list and make a case for those players:


Mine (I only include nba career) -

11. Karl Malone- Amazing peak and longevity. Great on both ends and an ironman that played almost every game in his career. Won consistently year after year with little talent on his teams. 3rd alltime total points, 7th in rebounds, 12th in steals. For playoffs, 7th in total points and rebounds, 16th in steals. 7th alltime per game in total points and rebounds, 16th in steals. 11th in per game points. 2 time mvp, 14 time Allnba, 4 time Defensive team, 14 time Allstar.

12. Jerry West- Amazing peak and longevity. Great on both ends. Won consistently year after year. 6th alltime in per game points. For playoffs, 9th alltime in total points, 15th in assists, 5th in points per game. Fmvp (on losing team) 12 time Allnba, 5 time Defensive team, 14 time Allstar. One of the only players (I can only think of two others) to lead the nba in scoring and assists in during their career.

13. Oscar Robertson- Amazing peak and longevity. Is along ther greatest offensive players ever and got alot of assists with less talent on his teams than others. 13th alltime total points, 8th in assists, 10th in per game points, 3rd assists. For playoffs, 4th in per game assists. 1 time mvp, 6 time assists leader, 11 time Allnba, 12 Allstar, 2nd most triple doubles ever.

14. David Robinson- His peak and prime was just too great, his impact top 10 if not top 5 in history. His longevity isn't big, but truth is his prime was from his rookie season to 2000, ten seasons as he missed one to injury. More than anyone ranked ahead of him alltime, he had the least talent on his teams as n carried them year after year to being among the top teams. He is a top 5 defender ever. 6th alltime in total blocks, 5th in blocks per game, for playoffs, 4th alltime in blocks and 5th alltime in blocks per game. For ten year primes, he is among the best scorers and rebounders, as well as in steals among bigs. 1 time mvp, 1 time dpoy, 10 time Allnba, 8 time Defensive team, 10 time Allstar.

15. Kobe Bryant- He is hard to evaluate. His stats look great but his impact wasn't as big. His prime was longer than most at fourteen years, from 2000 to 2013, though he wasn't the big scorer in 2000. He shouldn't have been selected to that many allstar games. 4th alltime in total points, 16th in steals, 12th in per game scoring, for playoffs, 4th in total points, 11th in assists, 6th in steals, 18th per game points. 1time mvp, 15 time Allnba, 12 time Defensive team, 18 time Allstar.

16. Elgin Baylor- Don't see how this man isn't ranked high by most. He was as much as important to his team's success as West. His peak was amazingly good and he was at that level for eleven years. His injury may have cut short his career. 3rd in per game points, 9th in rebounds. For playoffs, 18th total points, 10th in rebounds, 9th in per games points, 11th in rebounds. 10 time Allnba, 11 time Allstar. 20th most triple doubles ever.

17. Moses Malone- His peak and prime was too good. His longevity isn't huge but is really thirteen years, from 1978 to 1990, not more or less than most alltime greats. He had relatively little talent on his Houston teams and managed to do well, making one finals appearance. 10th alltime in total points, 5th in rebounds, for playoffs, 15th in total rebounds, 8th rebounds per game. 3 time mvp, 1 time fmvp, 8 time Allnba, 2 time Defensive team, 13 time Allstar.

18. Kevin Garnett- His impact is more than his stats but still, Garnett is difficult to evaluate, mostly because he realistically didn't have as much longevity as many seem to think and his peak isn't as high and as long as some other greats. His prime or relevant seasons are from 1999 to 2008, it is plausible to include 2009 and maybe 2011 but that is not on numbers but impact and their are many players in history who had similar impact with such numbers, so those seasons are not relevant for use in a case for top 20 alltime. It's his defense that raises his worth really. He wasn't worthy of that many allstar game selections. 18th alltime in total points, 9th in rebounds. For playoffs, 16th in total rebounds. 1 time mvp, 9 time Allnba, 12 time Defensive team, 15 Allstar.

19. Charles Barkley- Found it hard not to place him at #18. His peak and prime was great, from 1986 to 1997, which is good longevity. Very good efficiency in scoring. 19th alltime in total rebounds, 20th in rebounds per game, for playoffs, 15th in total rebounds, 13th in rebounds per game. 1 time mvp, 11 time Allnba, 11 time Allstar.

20. Patrick Ewing- A number of players could placed here but Ewing's level on both ends is better than anyone else. His peak and longevity are good, right from his rookie season he was very good. 1997 was really his last prime season. He also had little talent on his teams and carried them to a number of good winning seasons. 24th alltime in total points, 25th in total rebounds, 7th total blocks, 11th per game in blocks, for playoffs, 24th total rebounds, 7th total blocks, 11th per game in blocks.

HM - Nowitzki, Stockton, CP, Durant, Erving, Drexler, Wade

I think KG has a good argument for being a legit all-star from 97 to 2012, and you could even throw in 2013 personally. By 99, he was solid all-nba level I would probably level.

Also I don't think of Malone's peak as being that abnormal for a top 20 guy. I think this board might be in agreement with me based on the latest peaks project, but that is just my opinion.

Btw, where would you have Steph? Would he be after the HM?

Garnett wasn't top 20 level those seasons, not close. The liking for him on here is extreme but he doesn't have more longevity than most great players.

Malone's peak was top 10 and he really could be said to be better than one or two top 10 guys.

Curry just hasn't had a long enough prim e yet. He's unique and great at what he does well, maybe in three years he has done enough.

[Ursusamericanus]

As a Knicks fan... I feel Ewing can't be ranked top 20. No MVPs, no ring, no DPOY, performed worse in the playoffs. I'd put Dirk, KD, Wade, Giannis, Curry, and Dr. J ahead of him, to name a few.

[migya]

The Kobe bias is just subconscious at this point.

migya almost certainly have Kobe inside his top 10, so are you suggesting that having Kobe in the top 10 means you are biased? Or are you always trying to find a Kobe-related narrative in every single thread?

As can be seen Kobe isn't in my to 10. I wanted to place him lower but his level merits where I placed him.

[migya]

As a Knicks fan... I feel Ewing can't be ranked top 20. No MVPs, no ring, no DPOY, performed worse in the playoffs. I'd put Dirk, KD, Wade, Giannis, Curry, and Dr. J ahead of him, to name a few.

Ewing had the greatest Centers competing against him during his career, besides Chamberlain and Russell. In the 2000s he'd have gotten at least one dpoy and over 12 Allnba teams and Defensive teams. Maybe one mvp as well.

He was better on both ends combined than all those other guys.

[Jaivl]

Not in the mood to write arguments, but I leave my top 20 -

11. Kobe Bryant
12. Larry Bird
13. Dirk Nowitzki
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Karl Malone
16. Jerry West
17. David Robinson
18. Julius Erving
19. Chris Paul (until 2021)
20. Stephen Curry (until 2021)

I'll just add that the argument for a guy like Barkley over Paul is becoming pretty difficult to make.

[Ursusamericanus]

As a Knicks fan... I feel Ewing can't be ranked top 20. No MVPs, no ring, no DPOY, performed worse in the playoffs. I'd put Dirk, KD, Wade, Giannis, Curry, and Dr. J ahead of him, to name a few.

Ewing had the greatest Centers competing against him during his career, besides Chamberlain and Russell. In the 2000s he'd have gotten at least one dpoy and over 12 Allnba teams and Defensive teams. Maybe one mvp as well.

He was better on both ends combined than all those other guys.

Agreed in the modern era he'd have more accolades (or at least in the center-weak 2000s). I don't think he was better on both ends combined than Giannis though, you really think that? Look at their advanced stats... Ewing had an epic peak in 89-90 but his overall impact did not match Giannis'. And he was limited offensively, spammed that mid-range jumper way too much, and was a middling rebounder for his size and position. With a better supporting cast he'd have certainly won a ring (trust me I wish he did), but he ain't top 20. I generally see him in the 25-35 range.

[70sFan]

I have my clear top 9 players ever: Kareem/James/Russell/Jordan/Duncan/Wilt/Hakeem/Shaq/Magic

Players to consider:

PG: Oscar>West>Curry>Paul>Nash

SG: Kobe>Wade

SF: Bird>Julius>Durant

PF: Garnett>Malone>Dirk>Barkley>Pettit

C: Robinson>Moses>Ewing

I have been trying to get a better picture of pre-shotclock era recently, but I still feel uncomfortable with ranking Mikan, so let's leave him as special HM. I'll probably go this way:

10. Kevin Garnett - the best combination of longevity, prime, peak and two-way impact (I am high about it). He was basically all-star level for 16 seasons (1998-13) and all-nba level for 14 seasons (1999-12). His prime lasted around decade (1999-08), which is also quite long compared to the rest. He doesn't have huge postseason success, but he proved himself to be legit superstar in 2004 as well as 2008 playoffs, then he had very strong post-prime career in Boston. It is very close and I'm not very comfortable with that choice, but here is where I stand for now.

11. Oscar Robertson - another controversial decision, but I'm just so impressed with what Oscar did on basketball court. He was arguably the best offensive player left (with West/Curry/Bird fighting back) but he also has clearly the longest and most consistent prime out of the rest offensive-first guys. His prime is basically 1961-71 - 11 seasons in which he was all-nba level. I also don't think he peaked lower than the rest of the players, at least it's arguable. For two-way players, I guess you can argue that Robinson has a case, but his longevity isn't enough to reach Oscar.

12. Larry Bird - I always thought that Bird should be ranked ahead of Kobe, but I'm not so sure anymore. I feel that Larry peaked considerably higher than Kobe, but he only has 10 relevant seasons in his career. Kobe has extremely good longevity, with 10 years prime (2001-10) and solid post prime seasons like 2000 or 2011-13. I decided to go with Bird though, because I think I may underrate some of his early seasons (1980-83) because I don't view him as some kind of GOAT-level player then, more like a weak-MVP candidate. That's the main reason why I have Magic clearly ahead - I don't find either to be strong MVP candidate before 1984, but Magic added 3 more MVP level seasons in 1989-91 period, when Bird wasn't on that level anymore.

13. Kobe Bryant - as I said, Kobe's longevity and consistency is very impressive and even though he doesn't have the peak of those above him (in my opinion), I can see him being even higher. I guess I am not as high as some on his 2002-07 period, as I give him MVP-level seasons only twice (2003 and 2006).

14. Karl Malone - absurd longevity with 17 all-star seasons and 15 all-nba seasons. The problem with Malone is that he has probably the lowest peak among my top 15 players, otherwise he would be higher. I do think some people overstate his offensive limitations though and I really like his non-scoring game (passing, screen setting, off-ball movement, defense). Just very solid player and he never missed games.

15. Jerry West - the only concern with him is durability and that's why he's clearly below Oscar for me. Otherwise, I could go with him inside top 10, his prime was just absurdly good. 12 all-nba level seasons (1962-73) and his 5 years peak (1965-69) is among the greatest postseason peaks in NBA history. On top of that, he's one of the best defensive guards I've ever watched. If only he was more durable, he could rival Magic on my mind.

16. Julius Erving - I do count ABA career, it's not wise to reject it in my opinion. Julius is another one with the combination of all-time great longevity (13 seasons on all-nba level in 1972-84) and absurd peak (1976), but I think his prime is a bit less consistent than with someone like Kobe or Oscar. I'd have him higher if his defensive effort was more consistent throughout his career, because at his defense peak he was damn good.

17. Dirk Nowitzki - I'm relatively low on his peak due to his limitations (defense, passing), but he has absurd longevity and his prime was very consistent. Dirk basically never had a down year in 2001-11 period, always at strong all-nba level. Still, I think his peak isn't strong enough to be ranked ahead (I am one of those who view Malone vs Dirk very close prime for prime).

18. David Robinson - the first center since the big 9, could be higher with longer career but in the end, I view him as someone with "only" 10 all-nba seasons (1990-96 and 1998-00) and some of them weren't super strong (like 2000). Still, very high peak and even taking into account his offensive problems in the playoffs, he's definitely worthy being that high. I can see him being even at number 15 if I decide to go more with top seasons and not with longevity.

19. Steph Curry - still has a lot of room to improve his ranking, so far his longevity is very mediocre (only 9 all-nba seasons with 2013-19 and 2021-22). High peak, but not high enough to put him ahead of Robinson, who outside of his prime has also strong 2001-03 post-prime career.

20. Chris Paul - I had a hard time picking between him, Durant and Moses. I decided to go with Paul who has by far the best longevity out of them, while being comparably good for primes. I think he peaked the lowest, but the gap isn't enough to overcome his full career value.

Next 10 would probably look this way:

21. Kevin Durant
22. Moses Malone
23. Charles Barkley
24. Steve Nash
25. Bob Pettit
26. Patrick Ewing
27. Dwyane Wade
28. John Stockton
29. Elgin Baylor
30. Artis Gilmore

[LAL1947]

I think you should put Kobe in the Top-10... and replace him in this Top 11-20 with either Bill Russell or Tim Duncan, it's your choice. Apart from that, I don't really have anything to contribute in this thread.

The Kobe bias is just subconscious at this point.

migya almost certainly have Kobe inside his top 10, so are you suggesting that having Kobe in the top 10 means you are biased? Or are you always trying to find a Kobe-related narrative in every single thread?

Migya has put Kobe at #15... behind David Robinson (lol)... and says he wants to place him lower.

Is it because of guys like this that Kobe ended outside the Top-10 in the RealGM All-Time project? We know there are many others too, who put Kobe down to put Duncan up... even if that's not Migya's motivation.

Personally, I think Kobe would have "sonned" David Robinson in their primes, like Hakeem and MJ did. There's something to be said for statistical evaluation and looking at things like "impact" and all that... but then there's talent and what players are capable of doing on the court. Robinson vs Hakeem is the perfect example of that. Compare their primes or peaks with all the statistics you all usually quote, where Robinson comes out on top. Then look at what happened in reality in their head-to-head. MJ, Hakeem and Kobe are the 3 most talented players this league has ever seen IMO.

I also think there are many people here who wrongly think that Kobe played defense as bad as Dirk, because it's what they've been told by others they respect on these boards... which is far from the truth in reality.

[70sFan]

The Kobe bias is just subconscious at this point.

migya almost certainly have Kobe inside his top 10, so are you suggesting that having Kobe in the top 10 means you are biased? Or are you always trying to find a Kobe-related narrative in every single thread?

I just couldn't help but to notice the negative and discrediting tone with Kobe's case compared to the others. Just illustrates the subconscious biases that run through certain segments of the basketball community.

I just realized he has Kobe 15th. Sorry for that.

Don't find it disrespectful at all, top 15 is perfect spot for Kobe to me.

[70sFan]

I'll just add that the argument for a guy like Barkley over Paul is becoming pretty difficult to make.

I agree, at this point Barkley has very weak case over Paul, unless all you value is peak.

[Stalwart]

migya almost certainly have Kobe inside his top 10, so are you suggesting that having Kobe in the top 10 means you are biased? Or are you always trying to find a Kobe-related narrative in every single thread?

I just couldn't help but to notice the negative and discrediting tone with Kobe's case compared to the others. Just illustrates the subconscious biases that run through certain segments of the basketball community.

I just realized he has Kobe 15th. Sorry for that.

Don't find it disrespectful at all, top 15 is perfect spot for Kobe to me.

Again, it was the negative tone regarding his case that I was referring to not his being ranked 15th. You know this...

[Dutchball97]

I think you should put Kobe in the Top-10... and replace him in this Top 11-20 with either Bill Russell or Tim Duncan, it's your choice. Apart from that, I don't really have anything to contribute in this thread.

The Kobe bias is just subconscious at this point.

migya almost certainly have Kobe inside his top 10, so are you suggesting that having Kobe in the top 10 means you are biased? Or are you always trying to find a Kobe-related narrative in every single thread?

Migya has put Kobe at #15... behind David Robinson (lol)... and says he wants to place him lower.

Is it because of guys like this that Kobe ended outside the Top-10 in the RealGM All-Time project? We know there are many others too, who put Kobe down to put Duncan up... even if that's not Migya's motivation.

Personally, I think Kobe would have "sonned" David Robinson in their primes, like Hakeem and MJ did. There's something to be said for statistical evaluation and looking at things like "impact" and all that... but then there's talent and what players are capable of doing on the court. Robinson vs Hakeem is the perfect example of that. Compare their primes or peaks with all the statistics you all usually quote, where Robinson comes out on top. Then look at what happened in reality in their head-to-head. MJ, Hakeem and Kobe are the 3 most talented players this league has ever seen IMO.

I also think there are many people here who wrongly think that Kobe played defense as bad as Dirk, because it's what they've been told by others they respect on these boards... which is far from the truth in reality.

Your first point seems like a bit of a reach to me. Duncan was 5th and Kobe 12th. It isn't like Kobe got pushed out of the top 10 to make room for Duncan. When looking at the voting for the 10th spot the 23 votes are mostly split between Bird and KG with Kobe getting 1 vote. For the 5th spot Duncan got 15 out of 27 votes, while Kobe got none. Either you think all the people participating in the top 100 are biased Duncan fans and Kobe haters or it is time to accept the majority on the board value Kobe differently than you do.

You're also getting stuck on the Dirk having better defense than Kobe point. That was only about 2006 when Kobe had to carry the entire Lakers offense so he couldn't give as much effort on the other end of the floor. At their best and over their careers in general nobody is claiming Dirk was a better defender than Kobe so you can stop acting like everyone thinks Dirk was this elite defender, while Kobe was a turnstile or something. It's starting to sound a bit like a victim complex.

[70sFan]

Migya has put Kobe at #15... behind David Robinson (lol)... and says he wants to place him lower.

I admit I missed that one, full blame on me.

[70sFan]

I just couldn't help but to notice the negative and discrediting tone with Kobe's case compared to the others. Just illustrates the subconscious biases that run through certain segments of the basketball community.

I just realized he has Kobe 15th. Sorry for that.

Don't find it disrespectful at all, top 15 is perfect spot for Kobe to me.

Again, it was the negative tone regarding his case that I was referring to not his being ranked 15th. You know this...

You didn't see that he did the same thing with KG.

[Stalwart]

I just realized he has Kobe 15th. Sorry for that.

Don't find it disrespectful at all, top 15 is perfect spot for Kobe to me.

Again, it was the negative tone regarding his case that I was referring to not his being ranked 15th. You know this...

You didn't see that he did the same thing with KG.

KG's case was much more well balanced. Plus he already acknowledged that he wants to rank Kobe lower but can't justify it. So when I said the Kobe bias was subconscious at this point I was wrong. It's actual conscious and deliberate bias in this case.