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How would you rank them 1-4?

1. Draymond
2. Gasol
3. Brand
4. Webber

Which Gasol?

durantbird wrote:Which Gasol?

Pau

Webber
Draymond
Pau
Brand

This is a tough ranking to make as Webber's peak was so short. Pau and Dray peaked while playing supporting roles. And Brand never really had a decent to properly gauge his impact in terms of winning.

1) Chris Webber
2) Draymond Green
3) Elton Brand
4) Pau Gasol

Webber is the only one who showed he can be a real #1 option on a team, for a reason.

I have Brand over Pau because 2005-06 Brand was 7th in the MVP voting ahead of Tim Duncan.

Was Pau ever among the Top 10 in the voting for MVP? I'm not sure but I don't think so.

All these guys peaked at a similar level. Brand is difficult since on average he's the worst of the bunch but I'd take his 06 season over any Pau or Webber season quite confidently. Since I judge peak by one season he'd be either 1 or 2 for me. Draymond is the other tough choice because I could see him first or last tbh. He's by far the best defender and playmaker but also by far the worst scorer.

1) Draymond Green
2) Elton Brand
3) Pau Gasol
4) Chris Webber

Only have some doubts with the middle ones, #1 and #4 are quite clear for me.

LAL1947 wrote:1) Chris Webber
2) Draymond Green
3) Elton Brand
4) Pau Gasol

Webber is the only one who showed he can be a real #1 option on a team, for a reason.

I have Brand over Pau because 2005-06 Brand was 7th in the voting ahead of Tim Duncan.

Was Pau ever among the Top 10 in the voting for MVP? I'm not sure but I don't think so.

Pau has 0 MVP shares IIRC.

Jaivl wrote:Pau has 0 MVP shares IIRC.

Thanks!!

Doctor MJ wrote:1. Draymond
2. Gasol
3. Brand
4. Webber

Jaivl wrote:1) Draymond Green
2) Elton Brand
3) Pau Gasol
4) Chris Webber

Only have some doubts with the middle ones, #1 and #4 are quite clear for me.

Not questioning your ranking, just wanting to ask... if Chris Webber did some things that got him a Top 5 and 4x Top 10 MVP consideration at some point... why do you have his peak lower than Pau's peak, when Pau has 0 MVP shares?

MVP voting isn't always purely about skill alone. For what it's worth I think they have similar peaks with Webber arguably even having the advantage but context is important. Pau was amazing for the Lakers but nobody in their right mind would give their MVP vote to him over Kobe. I don't think Webber would've gotten a single vote either in that situation. Meanwhile Webber was kind of like a first among equals type of guy on a really well rounded team so he got most of the award attention despite not necessarily providing the impact that warrants such attention, kind of similar to Booker this year where he was nowhere near being a top 5 player but people wanting to reward the Suns still had to pick one of them.

LAL1947 wrote:

Jaivl wrote:Pau has 0 MVP shares IIRC.

Thanks!!

Jaivl wrote:1) Draymond Green
2) Elton Brand
3) Pau Gasol
4) Chris Webber

Only have some doubts with the middle ones, #1 and #4 are quite clear for me.

Not questioning your ranking, just wanting to ask... if Chris Webber did some things that got him a Top 5 and Top 10 MVP consideration at some point... why do you have his peak lower than Pau's peak, when Pau has 0 MVP shares?

Webber is probably a slightly better defender on average, but 2009 Pau tops that (his best defensive performance by a margin IMO).

But the main course for both of them is offense.

Using 2001 Webber as his peak, he drops 25.5 pp75 at +0.2 TS%.

Pau had Kobe as an efficiency booster, but he was vastly more efficient than Webber without him anyway (18.8 pp75 at +7.5 TS% with Kobe, 20.7 pp100 at +6.5 TS% without him).

And looking beyond and taking into account that Webber's teams were better the less primacy he had, how much value does his volume scoring advantage really have?

2001 Webber led? a +2.1 offense when on court. The offense without him? +1.8. Not missing a beat.
Lakers were +6.0 with Pau, +3.4 without him but with Kobe AND Odom.

Webber had big numbers on a good team, that's conductive to MVP success. Just like Booker this year. But he's not close to MVP level in my eyes.

And, to be clear, I'm not saying there's a huge gap between them as players, just that I feel confident enough to order them that way.

Dutchball97 wrote:MVP voting isn't always purely about skill alone. For what it's worth I think they have similar peaks with Webber arguably even having the advantage but context is important. Pau was amazing for the Lakers but nobody in their right mind would give their MVP vote to him over Kobe. I don't think Webber would've gotten a single vote either in that situation. Meanwhile Webber was kind of like a first among equals type of guy on a really well rounded team so he got most of the award attention despite not necessarily providing the impact that warrants such attention, kind of similar to Booker this year where he was nowhere near being a top 5 player but people wanting to reward the Suns still had to pick one of them.

You make a lot of good points. I'd like to push back a little though because I think we're doing Chris Webber a real disservice by saying his peak was not higher than Pau Gasol's.

MVP voting isn't about skill alone, true, but the reason I'm using MVP votes is because this is all from a long time ago. So I'm trying to be creative. I'm not saying MVP voting is definitive either. Just wondering if it can be used as one possible indicator that a player may have reached a higher peak, when the other never got a single vote? Webber got 4th in the MVP voting, which isn't something that's just handed to anybody. Webber also placed in the Top 10 four more times. Booker may not be a Top 5 player but can we agree he's playing like Top 10 in the league? Pau was never that.

Pau played for 6 whole seasons on the Memphis Grizzlies before joining the Lakers. The 2003-04 season was quite memorable for them because they went from having a 28-54 record to a 50-32 record (22 more wins). That was quite an accomplishment considering their overall roster (Pau Gasol, Jason Williams, Mike Miller, Shane Battier, Bonzi Wells, James Posey). Yet Pau Gasol never got a single vote even one time? Even Kevin Love got some votes at least one time when he was at Minnesota... and Pau's brother, Marc, has also got some MVP votes twice.

I don't think we can say that Webber wouldn't have gotten at least 1 vote in the same situation at the Lakers because he'd have done more things on his own to help us win. We've seen occasions where more than one player got at least 1 vote from the same team (like Melo-Billups at Denver, and KG-Pierce at the Celtics).

Booker may not be a Top 5 player but can we agree he's playing like Top 10 in the league? Pau was never that.

Well, I would not agree in either part lol.

Not sure Booker is even top 15 right now (Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Curry, Tatum, Durant, Luka, LBJ, Butler are 9 absolute locks), while Pau has an excellent argument for #8, #9 or #10 in 2009 and 2010 (LeBron, Wade, Kobe, Howard, Dirk, Nash and 2009 Paul are the only locks IMO). And depending how you judge his emotional distress in the 2011 playoffs, he has a case (EXTREMELY clear top 10 in the RS).

Jaivl wrote:

Booker may not be a Top 5 player but can we agree he's playing like Top 10 in the league? Pau was never that.

Well, I would not agree in either part lol.

Not sure Booker is even top 15 right now (Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Curry, Tatum, Durant, Luka, LBJ, Butler are 9 absolute locks), while Pau has an excellent argument for #8, #9 or #10 in 2009 and 2010 (LeBron, Wade, Kobe, Howard, Dirk, Nash and 2009 Paul are the only locks IMO). And depending how you judge his emotional distress in the 2011 playoffs, he has a case (EXTREMELY clear top 10 in the RS).

OK, fine, Booker is not really pertinent to the discussion, so can we agree he is playing like Top 15 in the league?

I disagree strongly about where you rate Gasol in 2009 and 2010... this is a player who played for my team! We did not have two Top 10 players in the league. No way, Jose.

Here is an old but very apt article that describes Pau Gasol's 2011 playoffs. He was 30 years old in 2010-11, so he was not ancient or anything and this is just one year after the 2nd title. The first two paragraphs are fluff, showing appreciation to Pau for being part of and helping us win the 2 titles after the dark years... but the truth starts from paragraph three, "Now that we’ve said that... man, did Pau get punked". Please read it? I have highlighted some interesting comments by the writer in bold font.

----
When The Going Got Tough, The Gasol Got Got.
By Matt Moore

"He won two titles for them. Yes, the Lakers had improved tremendously in 2007-2008 , but without him, they never would have made it to the Finals, nor won them the next two. It was only eight months ago that he was called “the best big man in the league” and touted as a possible MVP candidate.

So before we get to the business of burying Pau Gasol for arguably the most disappointing performance by a Lakers star in NBA history, we should take note. The crushing disappointment of failing to close out the three-peat, the seemingly inevitable glorious end to Phil Jackson’s coaching career, the cementing of the Lakers as the winningest team in the NBA with their 18th title, all of these expectations would not have been possible or reasonable without Gasol’s contributions. So before we start to flambe his role in this disaster, we had better recognize that Pau Gasol has been an incredible player for the Lakers, and a huge debt of gratitude is owed to him for his contributions to the Lakers’ title runs.

Now that we’ve said that… man, did Pau get punked.

From the Los Angeles Times:
Perhaps more than anything, the notion that Pau Gasol can be this teams next great leader was swept away. His sudden and odd postseason disappearance was the most obvious reason for the Lakers troubles, his fall completed Sunday when he scored 10 points while being pushed around by everyone but his coach, who thankfully refrained from hitting him for a second consecutive game.

“I have to learn from this,” Gasol said. I have to learn that when something happens off the court, you have to keep it off the court.”

He was referring to the report that he stopped talking to Bryant during the postseason because Bryant’s wife, Vanessa, had contributed to the breakup of Gasol and his longtime girlfriend. Lakers fans will remember that Karl Malone once publicly accused Vanessa of interfering with his personal life in a similar fashion.

Gasol denied Bryant’s involvement in the situation in an alternate report, but the shady nature of the rumor and Gasol’s response to it blends in with this L.A. nightmare. The bigger problem is that even though breaking up with your fiance is a rough, rough thing to go through, especially when it’s tinged with public scrutiny, it won’t matter. Just like fans and media revolt at the idea of it being a worker’s right to change jobs or locations once his contract is available, despite it being totally acceptable outside of sports, so too will they reject the notion that a significant disruption in one’s personal life is an acceptable cause for failure. All of Gasol’s previous efforts and triumphs are being rewritten as more to do with Kobe Bryant and Phil Jackson (who has bizarrely escaped much scrutiny in this disaster, despite most of the problems being directly in his wheelhouse, effort, motivation, mental focus, etc.). The calls are out there to trade Gasol and bring in someone tougher. Gasol’s soft touch has always bugged Lakers fans. You want your big man to throw it down, not tap it in; to reject the opponent, not faintly contest. But the biggest reason he’s being flogged for all of this?

He really was that bad. He’s been badly outplayed in these playoffs by his younger brother Marc, whose Grizzlies hold a 2-1 series lead over the second-favorite Thunder. And everything the younger Gasol has shown (toughness, tenacious attack, physicality, and that soft touch that proves so effective) is what the elder lacked. He was bullied by Tyson Chandler, abused by Dirk Nowitzki, and his string of mistakes seemed to feed off themselves. Blown passes, mishandled catches, missed layups, botched tip-ins, Gasol was outworked, out-hustled and looked older than his birth date would suggest.

Being a No.2 on a team is difficult, you have to be great without getting all the credit. But you’re also counted on to be the emotional and physical leader when the star is too bogged down with his responsibilities. Gasol found out the hard way what happens when things don’t fall exactly right, and if the talk of a Lakers’ blow-up is accurate, it could be a lesson that shows him out of town.

We won’t forget what Gasol did for the Lakers to get them two titles and three consecutive Finals appearances. But we also won’t forget how when the going got tough? The Gasol got got."

Source

LAL1947 wrote:

Jaivl wrote:Not sure Booker is even top 15 right now

so can we agree Booker is playing like Top 15 in the league?

Probably not.

LAL1947 wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:1. Draymond
2. Gasol
3. Brand
4. Webber

Not questioning your ranking, just wanting to ask... if Chris Webber did some things that got him a Top 5 and 4x Top 10 MVP consideration at some point... why do you have his peak lower than Pau's peak, when Pau has 0 MVP shares?

Appreciate the question.

Pau actually makes my Top 5 for all-season POY one year, while Webber never does, so in a nutshell, that explains the difference.

On Pau, I can't tell you how impressive I found his time with the Lakers. He came in and seemed to instantly know what to do with the triangle offense where so many players take years to even get adequate.

On Webber, well I have what you might call a radically different perspective on how that Sacramento team became great than the MVP voters did. I think what we actually see is that Adelman's offense worked best when you had your interior playmakers not trying to volume score - and hence that at least on a per minute basis, Vlade Divac & Brad Miller were both more valuable than Webber. Neither could volume score like Webber, but if your best attack is from the perimeter, that's arguably a good thing.

In a nutshell, people have a tendency to attribute credit for team success to the player who the team gives highest primacy too under the assumption that that primacy is what's driving the team success...but sometimes that primacy actually holds the team back relative to a better balance.

On Brand, I think he had an exceptional year in '05-06 which makes him a serious Top 5 candidate that year.

I'm not educated enough to compare Brand to the rest.

1. 2016 Draymond Green
2. 2009 Pau Gasol
3. 2002 Chris Webber

Webber had the most potential, but he wasted it. He's the worst defender here (though he was never bad) and his decision making on offense was always questionable (shoot too many jumpshots, didn't draw fouls well, didn't pass enough despite huge potential here). Gasol and Green were both the opposites - two of the smartest players ever who maximized their potential.

All three were on roughly similar levels peak-wise, but the order is clear to me.

1. Draymond
2. Brand
3. Gasol
4. Webber

I have Webber as a clear last year.

All I can say is thank goodness a place like RealGM PC Board exists and that Draymond gets the credit he deserves.

Webber
Gasol
Brand
Green