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I think they both have top 10 arguments though it's a struggle to figure out who they're displacing.

Jokic top 15.

Giannis top 25-30.

If by peak you mean 1-3 years then Jokic top 20 and Giannis top 35.

Both have a strong case for top 20.

I need a larger sample size for both. I still don't really know what to think of Giannis' offense or Jokic's defense. For now Giannis strikes me as a modern day Robinson who I've got as a top 12ish peak. Jokic feels like an even more polarized version of the all offense, no defense big archetype (Barkley, Dirk) that I'm not so high on.

Jokic top 15, Giannis top 20 as of now.

I have Jokic in the 15-25 range, he could def be higher and his regular season was probably better than alotnof people around him in that range ever had but I do want to see a finals run because of those potential matchup defensive concerns

I can’t lie I prolly have Giannis top 10 lmao

MyUniBroDavis wrote:I have Jokic in the 15-25 range, he could def be higher and his regular season was probably better than alotnof people around him in that range ever had but I do want to see a finals run because of those potential matchup defensive concerns

I can’t lie I prolly have Giannis top 10 lmao

What's your top 10 peaks ever?

70sFan wrote:

MyUniBroDavis wrote:I have Jokic in the 15-25 range, he could def be higher and his regular season was probably better than alotnof people around him in that range ever had but I do want to see a finals run because of those potential matchup defensive concerns

I can’t lie I prolly have Giannis top 10 lmao

What's your top 10 peaks ever?

I don’t have a list lol but I were to make one I think I might put him top ten

I had a pretty long writup but felt it’d be a bit rambly, but essentially

- I have the assumption that playoff giannis is as defensively impactful as 2020 RS giannis, but this is mostly based off the bucks going from defensively meh to top tier, and giannis’s defensive net rtg being the clear difference last and this year, and standing out from the rest of the high minute players outside of a player that clearly is not the reason

^^this above point is highly debatable for me, and could be changed since I didn’t watch the 21 playoffs much and in this one I think he’s been great and the best defender on the team but I’m not thinking “oh god his defense is absurd” although I’m having fun more than anything so maybe im not looking closely enough

- when evaluating peaks specifically I put more stock, how’d they do in the competitive series’s

Long story short, I don’t disagree with giannis having shortcomings in the halfcourt and do think some teams could exploit that, but they didn’t deal with that and his worst series was a dominant sweep in the first round

I do think if his playoff defense is high tier-DPOY type, and I’m of the belief that 2020 giannis is in that range, then the fact that offensively the only series he struggled in relatively was the Miami series where they had the sweep, and how he performed in general that playoff run esp in the finals and against Brooklyn

His regular season is underwhelming relatively in 2021, I don’t think it’s better than either of his MVP RS, but I kind of have a thing where if they make the finals I don’t really care how the regular season was to be honest


Beyond that, you can make a pretty strong argument he had the best finals ever (I don’t think he did, but it’s a discussion) and at the very least I think it’s safe to say it’s top 5 (per player)

Essentially what it comes down to is I think, given that that assumption about his defense is true, which I’m not necessarily super hardcore in belief for (the net rtg and bucks defense points at it, the general rule that versatile defenders improve in the playoffs nowadays impact wise points at it, the tracking data points against it though)

Then we’re essentially talking about a playoff run that’s probably in the high tier upper echelon in terms of championship runs, along with a finals series that gives more top 3 peak than top 10 peak vibes

Realgm as a whole I feel generally classifies peak as “best impact relative to era + portability + resiliency in hypothetical different situations” and while that’s perfectly valid that’s not really what I’m saying

I’m more saying
- giannis in the playoffs played at a level of a player with a top ten peak, and I don’t really have a reason to knock him for an elite but not top ten peak energy (imo and I assume most) regular season since he won the championship

Like, I think if 2021 giannis played these Celtics he struggles too, but he didn’t, and it’s more of an oh well thing to me because he didn’t lol, if that makes sense.

It’s kind like, if Jokic played against a bunch of teams that offensively couldn’t target his weaknesses, he’d look like a good, maybe even great defender in some series and that isn’t necessarily an impossibility at all (hell if he was born a few years earlier) thatd make his defense as a solid positive. But he’s kinda ended up one way or another playing a team that could attack him for a bit, if that makes sense

I forgot to add “prolly” with jokic

Giannis’s box score overrates his offensive impact a bit so if the defensive assumption isn’t true then kinda throw this away but I pretty much definately have him over Jokic either way, just since Jokic kinda gets unlucky with his matchups in the playoffs the past year or two

Not sure how Jokic has a higher peak than Giannis.

The only real edge Nikola has is a more diversified skillset on offense, but I'd say Antetokounmpo's superior defense, postseason success and intangibles close that gap & then some.

Giannis's peak is scoring 50 to secure the chip, Nikola hasn't come close to those heights yet.

letskissbro wrote:I need a larger sample size for both. I still don't really know what to think of Giannis' offense or Jokic's defense. For now Giannis strikes me as a modern day Robinson who I've got as a top 12ish peak. Jokic feels like an even more polarized version of the all offense, no defense big archetype (Barkley, Dirk) that I'm not so high on.

jokic plays with a lot more D effort than barkley

giannis doesnt feel like a robinson level defender but is definitevely a better offensive player with more playoffs resiliency as a first option

Was going to wait until the offseason to post, but I've been looking at Four Season Peaks to see how Giannis's recent stretch compares historically. Not necessarily a fair comparison for Jokic as he's only had two true peak level seasons so far, but included his splits too for comparison...

Giannis 24-27 | 31.0 PER | .631 TS% | 48.6 WS | .275 WS/48
Nikola 23-26 | 28.9 PER | .627 TS% | 52.5 WS | .257 WS/48

These are the rough tiers I came up with for the Top 30...

Kareem 23-26 | 27.9 PER | .589 TS% | 88.0 WS | .309 WS/48
Michael 24-27 | 31.4 PER | .607 TS% | 80.3 WS | .301 WS/48
Chmbrln 24-27 | 30.7 PER | .536 TS% | 87.9 WS | .278 WS/48
LeBron 24-27 | 30.2 PER | .598 TS% | 68.7 WS | .289 WS/48

Oscar 25-28 | 26.3 PER | .571 TS% | 71.9 WS | .248 WS/48
Magic 27-30 | 26.0 PER | .608 TS% | 59.4 WS | .251 WS/48
Larry 28-31 | 26.6 PER | .596 TS% | 61.7 WS | .242 WS/48
Durant 24-27 | 28.7 PER | .636 TS% | 57.4 WS | .283 WS/48
Robinson 27-30 | 28.3 PER | .584 TS% | 68.9 WS | .268 WS/48
Duncan 25-28 | 27.0 PER | .556 TS% | 58.6 WS | .250 WS/48
Shaq 27-30 | 30.1 PER | .585 TS% | 60.0 WS | .261 WS/48
Steph 25-28 | 27.0 PER | .636 TS% | 59.5 WS | .265 WS/48
Russell 27-30 | 19.1 PER | .472 TS% | 63.2 WS | .218 WS/48

Dirk 26-29 | 26.6 PER | .589 TS% | 62.5 WS | .256 WS/48
Garnett 26-29 | 27.7 PER | .563 TS% | 64.9 WS | .247 WS/48
Julius 23-26 | 25.3 PER | .563 TS% | 63.3 WS | .234 WS/48
Jerry 25-28 | 24.2 PER | .567 TS% | 59.5 WS | .241 WS/48
Wade 27-30 | 27.8 PER | .570 TS% | 48.3 WS | .225 WS/48
Kobe 27-30 | 25.7 PER | .569 TS% | 54.8 WS | .209 WS/48
Hakeem 29-32 | 25.6 PER | .565 TS% | 50.7 WS | .203 WS/48
Kawhi 24-27 | 26.5 PER | .609'TS% | 37.7 WS | .255 WS/48

Barkley 24-27 | 27.6 PER | .654 TS% | 63.5 WS | .257 WS/48
Mailman 33-36 | 27.6 PER | .590 TS% | 57.9 WS | .257 WS/48
Paul 26-29 | 26.3 PER | .588 TS% | 54.9 WS | .276 WS/48
Moses 24-28 | 25.3 PER | .575 TS% | 56.1 WS | .212 WS/48
Artis 22-25 | 23.5 PER | .590 TS% | 67.2 WS | .228 WS/48
Stockton 25-28 | 23.3 PER | .619 TS% | 58.2 WS | .232 WS/48
Frazier 23-26 | 20.5 PER | .567 TS% | 57.8 WS | .221 WS/48
Billups 28-31 | 21.8 PER | .605 TS% | 52.5 WS | .232 WS/48
Harden 27-31 | 29.2 PER | .618 TS% | 58.7 WS | .260 WS/48

By Four Season Peak, Giannis ranks 2nd in PER, 4th in TS% and 7th in WS/48.

SickMother wrote:Not sure how Jokic has a higher peak than Giannis.

The only real edge Nikola has is a more diversified skillset on offense, but I'd say Antetokounmpo's superior defense, postseason success and intangibles close that gap & then some.

Giannis's peak is scoring 50 to secure the chip, Nikola hasn't come close to those heights yet.

Yeah the issue is this board pretty much defines peak strictly by offense with maybe the one exception of 2004 KG. We almost never talk about Russell in terms of peak which is a glaring omission. 03 Duncan gets only passing mention and that only because people have to concede that is one of the weakest supporting casts a champion has ever had.

Jokic is an absolutely breathtaking offensive player and in an era defined by explosive numbers its easy to go crazy for him. But Giannis remains a far better offensive player than he gets credit for and he's a great defensive player to boot.

I'm not a guy who is heavily invested in peaks so I don't have a list, but I can't imagine thinking Jokic's best is 10-15 spots higher than Giannis' best like several itt are suggesting.

Giannis top 15
Jokic Top 20

SickMother wrote:Was going to wait until the offseason to post, but I've been looking at Four Season Peaks to see how Giannis's recent stretch compares historically. Not necessarily a fair comparison for Jokic as he's only had two true peak level seasons so far, but included his splits too for comparison...

Giannis 24-27 | 31.0 PER | .631 TS% | 48.6 WS | .275 WS/48
Nikola 23-26 | 28.9 PER | .627 TS% | 52.5 WS | .257 WS/48

These are the rough tiers I came up with for the Top 30...

Kareem 23-26 | 27.9 PER | .589 TS% | 88.0 WS | .309 WS/48
Michael 24-27 | 31.4 PER | .607 TS% | 80.3 WS | .301 WS/48
Chmbrln 24-27 | 30.7 PER | .536 TS% | 87.9 WS | .278 WS/48
LeBron 24-27 | 30.2 PER | .598 TS% | 68.7 WS | .289 WS/48

Oscar 25-28 | 26.3 PER | .571 TS% | 71.9 WS | .248 WS/48
Magic 27-30 | 26.0 PER | .608 TS% | 59.4 WS | .251 WS/48
Larry 28-31 | 26.6 PER | .596 TS% | 61.7 WS | .242 WS/48
Durant 24-27 | 28.7 PER | .636 TS% | 57.4 WS | .283 WS/48
Robinson 27-30 | 28.3 PER | .584 TS% | 68.9 WS | .268 WS/48
Duncan 25-28 | 27.0 PER | .556 TS% | 58.6 WS | .250 WS/48
Shaq 27-30 | 30.1 PER | .585 TS% | 60.0 WS | .261 WS/48
Steph 25-28 | 27.0 PER | .636 TS% | 59.5 WS | .265 WS/48
Russell 27-30 | 19.1 PER | .472 TS% | 63.2 WS | .218 WS/48

Dirk 26-29 | 26.6 PER | .589 TS% | 62.5 WS | .256 WS/48
Garnett 26-29 | 27.7 PER | .563 TS% | 64.9 WS | .247 WS/48
Julius 23-26 | 25.3 PER | .563 TS% | 63.3 WS | .234 WS/48
Jerry 25-28 | 24.2 PER | .567 TS% | 59.5 WS | .241 WS/48
Wade 27-30 | 27.8 PER | .570 TS% | 48.3 WS | .225 WS/48
Kobe 27-30 | 25.7 PER | .569 TS% | 54.8 WS | .209 WS/48
Hakeem 29-32 | 25.6 PER | .565 TS% | 50.7 WS | .203 WS/48
Kawhi 24-27 | 26.5 PER | .609'TS% | 37.7 WS | .255 WS/48

Barkley 24-27 | 27.6 PER | .654 TS% | 63.5 WS | .257 WS/48
Mailman 33-36 | 27.6 PER | .590 TS% | 57.9 WS | .257 WS/48
Paul 26-29 | 26.3 PER | .588 TS% | 54.9 WS | .276 WS/48
Moses 24-28 | 25.3 PER | .575 TS% | 56.1 WS | .212 WS/48
Artis 22-25 | 23.5 PER | .590 TS% | 67.2 WS | .228 WS/48
Stockton 25-28 | 23.3 PER | .619 TS% | 58.2 WS | .232 WS/48
Frazier 23-26 | 20.5 PER | .567 TS% | 57.8 WS | .221 WS/48
Billups 28-31 | 21.8 PER | .605 TS% | 52.5 WS | .232 WS/48
Harden 27-31 | 29.2 PER | .618 TS% | 58.7 WS | .260 WS/48

By Four Season Peak, Giannis ranks 2nd in PER, 4th in TS% and 7th in WS/48.

Jokic and Giannis played two shorter seasons due to COVID. Also Giannis was so dominate that he did not have to play many 4th quarter games by blowing the other teams away in the first 3. Those two factors hurt his WS.