Highest reasonable peak ranking for George Mikan?

[LA Bird]

Era portability has become a hot topic again after Cousy's recent comments so I thought this could be an interesting discussion.
In the most recent PC board projects, Mikan ranked #29 on the peaks list and #19 on the careers list. Considering he had a very short career though, shouldn't Mikan logically be ranked much higher on the peaks list? For example, Robinson was #18 in the peaks list and #17 in the careers list. For Mikan to be only two spots behind on the careers list, shouldn't his peak be even higher than Robinson's in order to make up for the weaker career longevity? Alternatively, if Mikan only had a top 30 peak and he only played 8.5 seasons, how did he move above players with both better peaks and longevity than him to reach top 20 all time for his career? Does anyone else get the feeling that era concerns play a much bigger role on peak lists than on career lists?

(On a sidenote, we should probably have another peaks project after this season is over. The previous one was 3 years ago and it shouldn't overlap with the top 100 project next year.)

[Dutchball97]

He'll always be the toughest player to rank. His relative dominance might just be unmatched in the history of the NBA but adjust for competition and he drops a lot.

[70sFan]

He has a very strong case for number one and I don't think it's completely unreasonable.

[falcolombardi]

it literally depends on how much do you want to value mikan era

mikan probably was as dominant in his own era as anyone has ever been in theirs

i think ranking him last among guys who were the clear cut best players in the league at some point (which probably would have him around 10-12~ peaks) is a reasonable handicap for playing in pre shotclock (and some pre racial integration i think?) nba

[Jaivl]

#1

[sp6r=underrated]

He has easily the widest range of any NBA player.

[Texas Chuck]

He has a very strong case for number one and I don't think it's completely unreasonable.

Exactly this. I freely admit I don't have the capability to put him into proper context in comparison with those who came after him, but his in-era dominance takes a backseat to nobody. So I think its very reasonable for someone to have him as the GOAT peak.

[tsherkin]

Tough call. Possibly the best example of why cross-era comparisons are basically BS. Set the standard for big man training for decades after. Established an archetype at his position which dominated the sport for half a century. Short career but crap tons of success. In his own time, he did about everything anyone could ever ask as far as authoring dominance. Forced rules changes. Played through notable injuries to effect and success.

Crap efficiency by contemporary standards, but for the sake of context, his TS+ was 127, 119, 119, 105, 108, 105 and 99 (outlier, following a year of retirement). Like, you can't expect him to put up the numbers of guys today. The game was young, immature, different in rules and skills profile, totally different level of popularity and money, all that stuff. And he kicked the teeth in of all comers, you know? He's easily the pre-Russell GOAT and his list of achievements and accolades is significant.

I've long since abandoned the idea that I can legitimately get behind an all-eras list of all-time greats and have it be ranked any kind of fair. I'm pretty much a "3pt era or before" kind of guy as a starting point these days, because there are just so many differences as you go back 50, 60, 70 years and more.

[Texas Chuck]

He has easily the widest range of any NBA player.

Walton?

Those are the two players I probably struggle with the most.

[Texas Chuck]

I've long since abandoned the idea that I can legitimately get behind an all-eras list of all-time greats and have it be ranked any kind of fair. I'm pretty much a "3pt era or before" kind of guy as a starting point these days, because there are just so many differences as you go back 50, 60, 70 years and more.

Wisdom was spoken here.

[sp6r=underrated]

He has easily the widest range of any NBA player.

Walton?

Those are the two players I probably struggle with the most.

Walton is even easier in the sense that I fully understand the dilemma: how do you rank a guy with historic durability problems. For me he no longer hits the top 100 but once you understand your criteria he can be evaluated.

Mikan played in an era I don't even understand

[tsherkin]

I've long since abandoned the idea that I can legitimately get behind an all-eras list of all-time greats and have it be ranked any kind of fair. I'm pretty much a "3pt era or before" kind of guy as a starting point these days, because there are just so many differences as you go back 50, 60, 70 years and more.

Wisdom was spoken here.

A lot of the older fans on this board have helped open my eyes to that basic approach, you know? Like, why is my benchmark taking people out of the time and context in which they trained and played and putting them into the modern era? Why compare guys who had second jobs and all that to guys who get paid $40 mil a year, with whole medical teams and airplanes and whatever else? Different shoes, different rims, different court surfaces, different training regimens. Yeah, the game has evolved, but what if we enforced palming and traveling and took away the 3pt line and reinstituted hand checking and illegal defense and narrowed the lane, removed the restricted area blah blah blah? Why always the modern bias of which I have been dreadfully guilty on many occasions? What about flipping it around? Dudes like penbeast and 70sfan and writerman from back in the day, and others on the PC Board projects have done a lot of work to showcase certain players and remind us of different ways to think. It's been fairly awesome, to be honest.

[kcktiny]

The highest reasonable ranking for George Mikan is the greatest basketball player ever. Just like Wilt Chamberlain in his era, Kareem-Abdul Jabbar in his era, or Michael Jordan in his era.

If someone wanted to claim Mikan as the greatest ever they'd have a lot of arguments in their favor.

And for anyone claiming he clearly wasn't, I'd love to see their arguments for why Babe Ruth was not the greatest baseball player ever - and Ruth played two decades prior to Mikan.

[Johnlac1]

The highest reasonable ranking for George Mikan is the greatest basketball player ever. Just like Wilt Chamberlain in his era, Kareem-Abdul Jabbar in his era, or Michael Jordan in his era.

If someone wanted to claim Mikan as the greatest ever they'd have a lot of arguments in their favor.

And for anyone claiming he clearly wasn't, I'd love to see their arguments for why Babe Ruth was not the greatest baseball player ever - and Ruth played two decades prior to Mikan.

As you mentioned Ruth like every great player from a much earlier era (in Ruth's case about one hundred years ago) we get into the issue of athleticism where today's athletes on average are more athletic.
But that doesn't mean that a great athlete from way back wouldn't be a great one today.
Nobody in Ruth's time did what he did as far as combination batting average and power. I read a book about Ruth by a guy named Bill Jenkinson (?) who documented many of Ruth's clouts and claims nobody as yet has hit balls as far as Ruth hit them.
For his time Ruth was an outlier athlete.
What would he do today? Probably not hit for as high an average but he might well have hit more home runs.
As far as Mikan goes he's like many basketball players of that age a victim of that time's coaching techniques. Mikan took a lot of bad shots which were actually average shots in those days. Which is why his career fg pct. is only around 40%. Surprisingly, Mikan did have a turn around jump shot but not a straight up jump shot.
If he (and all the other players from that age) had been taught how to shoot a decent jumper, undoubtedly his and their fg percentages would have been much higher. And Mikan was not a good dribbler either. Centers are not expected to handle the ball much, but in his case a little better handles would also have made him look better.
I read a bio of Mikan that more or less depicted him as a muscular, semi-clumsy oaf who could barely get up and down the floor and knocked over or outmuscled his opponents.
Looking at the numerous clips of video tells me otherwise. Mikan moved very well and was very quick for his size for that day. Even the Harlem Globetrotters were surprised by his quickness and had to gang up on him and beat on him to slow him down.
While he's not the athlete like many modern centers, Mikan had a good package of strength, mobility, and coordination. With modern coaching techniques he'd have done very well today.

[frica]

I'd say Mikan would still be quick for his size today.
Mikan was 240-250 pounds, at 6'10 despite not having a weight training regime + dietician behind him.

He was a very big guy, bigger than most centers even today.

[Cavsfansince84]

Also worth noting Bob Kurland who was probably MIkan's equal but chose a high paying job while playing semi pro ball back when a lot of companies had them. They played h2h 5 times and Kurland basically played him to a draw and would get Mikan to foul out.

[Sephiroth]

Tough to gauge because he played against philosophers and accountants.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Criteria can put him from 1# to highschool level lol

[HeartBreakKid]

Criteria can put him from 1# to highschool level lol

youve said this before but I have to say you're smoking some serious crack if you think George Mikan is a high school level player. I think you didn't grow up in America so maybe you're fooled by the mixtape highlight videos, but you're absolutely insane if you think a guy the size of George Mikan wouldn't dominate HS. He would absolutely have ran through my college much less an HS.

Think about your statement and think about how big George Mikan is.

Saying that someone like George Mikan wouldn't be a professional player is just disconnected from reality. I saw Sim Bhullar at a bar last month and he's STILL playing pro basketball, and the guy is fat and can barely walk.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Criteria can put him from 1# to highschool level lol

youve said this before but I have to say you're smoking some serious crack if you think George Mikan is a high school level player. I think you didn't grow up in America so maybe you're fooled by the mixtape highlight videos, but you're absolutely insane if you think a guy the size of George Mikan wouldn't dominate HS. He would absolutely have ran through my college much less an HS.

Think about your statement and think about how big George Mikan is.

Saying that someone like George Mikan wouldn't be a professional player is just disconnected from reality. I saw Sim Bhullar at a bar last month and he's STILL playing pro basketball, and the guy is fat and can barely walk.

Highschool was an exaggeration lol I live in la now so I know most highschool players are trash, but If your criteria is time portalling and suiting them up with like a month of adjusting then I think it’s fair to say he’s not gonna be close to an NBA level player at all

If he grew up today that’s a different story of course

Wasn’t bhullar 7ft5? Making pro basketball in general across the world isn’t crazy it’s just in some areas you barely get paid, in indonesia the kids on the U-17 team would get washed by a decent middle schooler here