1974 Kareem vs 1994 Hakeem

[Matt15]

Who was the better player?

[JordansBulls]

Pretty close but I go Hakeem as he won the title and didn't lose with HCA. Had Kareem won that game 7 probably would go with him.

[70sFan]

Kareem mostly because of offensive advantage. He was much more versatile offensive player and it matters in such a close comparison.

[ardee]

I'd probably go with Hakeem, but it's close. His defensive versatility is what seals the deal for me. Kareem was obviously a dominant rim protector but Hakeem was more mobile and could blow up offensive sets all over the floor.

I think I'd have Kareem, Hakeem and Duncan's peaks all basically as a pick 'em. I don't think there's a wrong way to order them.

[capfan33]

Kareem is much better on offense and still lead essentially the #1 defense in the league. If it was 93 Hakeem I would prob give a slight edge to Hakeem.

[countryboy667]

I will never understand the extravagant praise Hakeen gets. IMO, this isn't even close, and I'm not even a big-time Kareem fan....

[Cavsfansince84]

The thing that makes me consider Hakeem here is the mindset he had in those 94 playoffs. It was similar to LeBron in 2012, MJ in 91 and Dirk in 2011 and a few others where he was just determined to win it that year. Its something you can see in a player's eyes sometimes. I'm not sure Kareem had that in 74.

[90sAllDecade]

Hakeem got it done without a second all-star or HOF teammates and beat a HOF center in Ewing with a historic Knicks defense. Generational GOAT level centers both, but Hakeem faced tougher competition and won the title that year.

[tsherkin]

Hakeem got it done without a second all-star or HOF teammates and beat a HOF center in Ewing with a historic Knicks defense. Generational GOAT level centers both, but Hakeem faced tougher competition and won the title that year.

He did, but it's not like his cast didn't come through or Ewing's cast didn't choke it away, you know what I mean? He didn't have an All-Star, but Horry and Kenny Smith murdered it from 3 and Horry as a 3/4 with range was quite helpful in opening up the interior for Hakeem. Cassell murdering it from 3 off the bench didn't hurt either, and same same Mario Elie. They took more 3s than any other team in the league during the RS and they were clicking at a high rate during the postseason in 94. In Game 7 against Phoenix, people remember 37 from Olajuwon because he was the driving force, but maybe they forget 3/4 from 3 from Horry, 2/3 from Cassell, 1/2 from Maxwell. Maybe they forget Horry posted 15/6/3 with 3 steals, and that Horry, Maxwell, Smith and Cassell combined for the team's 9 steals. Maybe they forget Alien had 22 points and 7 assists off the bench.


Same same versus the Knicks. Most folks don't forget Starks' epic chokejob, of course. Maybe they forget that Alien shot 43.8% from 3 in that series, or that Otis Thorpe led the team with 11.3 rpg. Maybe they forget in Game 7 that Vernon Maxwell put up 21 points (Olajuwon had 25) on 54.5% FG (Olajuwon shot 10/25 for 40% FG that game). Maybe they forget Alien had 13 in 18 minutes on 4/6 FG and 4/4 FT.

You see what I'm saying? Olajuwon put in work in that series, but like 2011 Dirk, his guys came through as needed that whole run. And even in that Game 7 when he didn't look particularly good from the field, his guys were there for him.

[tihsad]

I'm not sure what the argument is for KAJ over Hakeem. Not KAJ's best year but likely Hakeem's when taking into account the full season. I don't see how Hakeem's 94' supporting cast was in anyway better then the 74' Bucks. If this was 71' or 77' KAJ I might bite.

[countryboy667]

With all due respect to David Robinson and Patrick Ewing (whom I rank, though both were incredible talents, in the 2nd tier or lower of the best fives in NBA history) Hakeem had only one real top tier five to play against for his career--Shaquille O'Neal. Having seen most of the great ones, I don't think he would have fared as well and have the slightly bloated rep he has if he'd had to play against Wilt, Russ, Nate, and some others. And to be fair to today's guys (to prove that it's not just my prejudice for the old timers) I think he might also have really struggled against guys like Embiid and Jokic...I know it's my signature to say this, but I personally think Wilt anywhere near his prime would have flat out destroyed him.

When you're talking KAJ--and remember, I'm not a great fan of his, always considered him a little snobby and arrogant for my taste-- you're talking one of the few all-time bona fide undisputed greats at the center position. In my opinion, Hakeem doesn't measure up to that level, anywhere or at any time, dream shake or no dream shake.

[tsherkin]

I don't think he would have fared as well and have the slightly bloated rep he has if he'd had to play against Wilt, Russ, Nate, and some others.

I have trouble believing that. Highly mobile and athletic, very strong. Danced around power players, had the physical tools to go at more athletic guys. David Robinson, no matter what you want to think of him, was a 7'1 dude at 270 with more mobility than someone like Thurmond had. Olajuwon went pretty hard at Kareem while KAJ had some left in the tank as well.

I think he might also have really struggled against guys like Embiid and Jokic...I know it's my signature to say this, but I personally think Wilt anywhere near his prime would have flat out destroyed him.

I mean, it's fair to look at some of these guys and suggest that they might have given him some challenges on the offensive end. Jokic and Embiid both have a lot of range, and of course Jokic is a phenomenal passer, so that might have gone a little more like KAJ/Walton back in the day. But he's also going to be giving it back to them. He dealt pretty well with Shaq's power; the only other player in league history who had anything like that kind of power was Wilt, and Chamberlain was far more... restrained about how he used his power game. And again, mobility from guys like Ewing and Robinson, finesse from old Kareem. Power from Moses. Hakeem saw tons of competition at the 5 across the breadth of his career.

There's nothing that Bob Lanier, Jack Sikma or Nate Thurmond were gonna do that was different from what the centers in Hakeem's own career presented in terms of challenge on either end. All good players, mind, and I don't mean to suggest that Hakeem would just trash on them. But the idea that that they would present a challenge that Hakeem didn't see is at odds with the competition he actually faced.

Hakeem versus Wilt would be interesting, because Wilt was like Shaq if he didn't play to his strengths. Chamberlain didn't play quite as intelligently with his off-ball movement and he liked to go to a finesse game that wasn't the ideal way to deploy his tools. Some of that was era-related and some of that was his insecurity about being labeled a giant bullying the smaller dudes. And it still worked out pretty well for him in terms of personal stats. But he struggled to mix his passing and scoring games well enough to really put it together and Hakeem was athletically and defensively fairly similar to Bill Russell. Would he shut Wilt down? No, that's nonsense. Would he make life a little harder for Wilt than most centers not named Russell in Wilt's actual career? Absolutely. Would Wilt be able to stop Hakeem? No, not really, though he certainly wouldn't be a pushover. Same same Russell. He was a great defender, but he also knew better than to worry too much about individual matchups and focused more on team defense, so it's likely that Hakeem would still have done pretty normal Hakeem things against him. THe real question with them would be how the team game broke out around them, as was Russell's traditional (and quite successful) MO.

[Dr Positivity]

Kareem is a different level of offensive talent than Hakeem to me, while Hakeem has defensive edge, Kareem is also great on that end so I don't think it's enough of a margin. The comp is like 2013 Lebron vs 2019 Kawhi or something to me, Hakeem and Kawhi are great players but the generational ones like Lebron and Kareem are something different.

[70sFan]

I'm not sure what the argument is for KAJ over Hakeem. Not KAJ's best year but likely Hakeem's when taking into account the full season. I don't see how Hakeem's 94' supporting cast was in anyway better then the 74' Bucks. If this was 71' or 77' KAJ I might bite.

Well, Bucks lost Lucious Allen who was their 2nd best guard and McGlocklin missed games in the finals as well. On top of that, age catched up Oscar in that series, he was no longer good contributor (I'd argue that he was a liability against agressive Celtics offense). Meanwhile Rockets were healthy and full of young talent.

I also don't agree that it wasn't one of KAJ's best years, he was absurdly good in postseason. He carried Bucks almost singlehandly against better, more well rounded Celtics team (taking injuries into account).

[70sFan]

Hakeem got it done without a second all-star or HOF teammates and beat a HOF center in Ewing with a historic Knicks defense. Generational GOAT level centers both, but Hakeem faced tougher competition and won the title that year.

I wouldn't say that 1994 Knicks were better than 1974 Celtics. 1974 Bulls were also elite, but got destroyed by Kareem with one of the greatest performances ever (LeBronto-esque). Kareem also had to play with injured roster in the finals.

[capfan33]

I'm not sure what the argument is for KAJ over Hakeem. Not KAJ's best year but likely Hakeem's when taking into account the full season. I don't see how Hakeem's 94' supporting cast was in anyway better then the 74' Bucks. If this was 71' or 77' KAJ I might bite.

Kareem was better in 74 than 71 and it's easily one of his best seasons. And Hakeem was probably better in 93 as a player.

Also, the Bucks weren't all that great outside of Kareem, they were relying on a washed-up Oscar to handle the ball 90% of the time in the playoffs. Despite this, if Lucius Allen were healthy they probably win the finals in 6.

[tihsad]

I'm not sure what the argument is for KAJ over Hakeem. Not KAJ's best year but likely Hakeem's when taking into account the full season. I don't see how Hakeem's 94' supporting cast was in anyway better then the 74' Bucks. If this was 71' or 77' KAJ I might bite.

Kareem was better in 74 than 71 and it's easily one of his best seasons. And Hakeem was probably better in 93 as a player.

Also, the Bucks weren't all that great outside of Kareem, they were relying on a washed-up Oscar to handle the ball 90% of the time in the playoffs. Despite this, if Lucius Allen were healthy they probably win the finals in 6.

Agreed, how was Hakeems's 94' team better then any KAJ teams post 72'?

[tihsad]

I'm not sure what the argument is for KAJ over Hakeem. Not KAJ's best year but likely Hakeem's when taking into account the full season. I don't see how Hakeem's 94' supporting cast was in anyway better then the 74' Bucks. If this was 71' or 77' KAJ I might bite.

Well, Bucks lost Lucious Allen who was their 2nd best guard and McGlocklin missed games in the finals as well. On top of that, age catched up Oscar in that series, he was no longer good contributor (I'd argue that he was a liability against agressive Celtics offense). Meanwhile Rockets were healthy and full of young talent.

I also don't agree that it wasn't one of KAJ's best years, he was absurdly good in postseason. He carried Bucks almost singlehandly against better, more well rounded Celtics team (taking injuries into account).

No question KAJ was large in 74', but am I taking him over best of best Hakeeem? No. We both know that's not a slight, those were some wilderness years for KAJ pre-77.

[tihsad]

I'm not sure what the argument is for KAJ over Hakeem. Not KAJ's best year but likely Hakeem's when taking into account the full season. I don't see how Hakeem's 94' supporting cast was in anyway better then the 74' Bucks. If this was 71' or 77' KAJ I might bite.

Kareem was better in 74 than 71 and it's easily one of his best seasons. And Hakeem was probably better in 93 as a player.

Also, the Bucks weren't all that great outside of Kareem, they were relying on a washed-up Oscar to handle the ball 90% of the time in the playoffs. Despite this, if Lucius Allen were healthy they probably win the finals in 6.

I think we're both on the same page, but the lack of talent on the early 70s Bucks is uncannily similar to the mid 90s Houston. In bizzaro-verse 90s Dream and early 70s KAJ have some similarities.

[homecourtloss]

Surprised nobody has linked this part of Odinn21’s unfinished project

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2126018