Karl Malone v Shaq

[migya]

Who had a better career; Karl Malone or Shaquille O'Neal?

Who had better peak ie. One year or three year?

Who had better prime ie. Most of you know what prime is but say over ten years?


Give your reasons for all three.

[coastalmarker99]

Shaq wins by a landslide in basically everything compared to Malone.

Shaq should have won four final MVPs in five years if not for Kobe's ego as he basically sabotaged the Lakers in the 2004 finals as he refused to pass the ball to Shaq who was killing Ben.

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[Im Your Father]

I don’t really see them on the same tier.

Peak: I see Shaq as a top 5 guy, potentially top 2. I’m not sure I’d have Malone in the top 20.

Prime: As you’ve defined it, i think Shaq easily has a better 10 year run. Say 95-2005.

Career: I see Shaq as a lock top 10 type and Malone as maybe top 20.

[tsherkin]

Much respect to Karl Malone, but Shaq was a different tier of player. The Mailman maxed himself out based on his tools and skill set for sure, but Shaq was a different animal entirely come the playoffs relative to Karl and in terms of his overall offensive value.

[D.Brasco]

Much respect to Karl Malone, but Shaq was a different tier of player. The Mailman maxed himself out based on his tools and skill set for sure, but Shaq was a different animal entirely come the playoffs relative to Karl and in terms of his overall offensive value.

[tsherkin]

Much respect to Karl Malone, but Shaq was a different tier of player. The Mailman maxed himself out based on his tools and skill set for sure, but Shaq was a different animal entirely come the playoffs relative to Karl and in terms of his overall offensive value.

As a player, man.

You can look at his flaws, and there are certainly several to find. But that dude squeezed every last drop of talent and skill out of his body that he could. It's not a crime to be a top 15/20 player all-time and to come up short against Michael Jordan's dynasty Bulls, it just means he didn't reach the extremely-exclusive upper-most tier of NBA legends. *shrugs* The development in his jumper and passing over his career, the quality of his defense and rebounding, his off-ball game, it's all big stuff.

Shaq, however, was just a whole different thing in terms of his physical talent. His power post game was great, but underappreciated was his off-ball game. Little cuts in and across the key, how he positioned himself, his footwork, all sorts of little details about how he did what he did. And it left him an absolute screaming monster in the playoffs.

[ronnymac2]

Malone. Eazily.

3rd all-time in scoring.
Could hit jumpers and free throws.
Battled valiantly against Jordan in the finals.

[tsherkin]

Malone. Eazily.

3rd all-time in scoring.
Could hit jumpers and free throws.
Battled valiantly against Jordan in the finals.

"Easily" is a pretty hot take, particularly since Shaq (free throw issues and all) was still a better postseason scorer than Malone.

All the jumpers in the world don't matter too much if Shaq's still shooting 9, 10 percent better from the floor on comparable to superior volume, while adding rim protection and better rebounding.

[migya]

Being objective, it can certainly be said that Malone was better:


Stats:


Career -

Karl Malone -
1476gms, 37.2mins, 51.6fg%, 6.6ftm, 74.2ft%, 10.1rebs, 3.6ast, 1.4stl, 0.8blk, 3.1tos, 25.0pts

113OR, 101DR, 23.9PER, 57.7TS%, 142.2OWS, 92.4DWS, 234.6WS, .205WS/48, 5.1BPM, 99.0VORP


Shaquille O'Neal -
1207gms, 34.7mins, 58.2fg%, 4.9ftm, 52.7ft%, 10.9reb, 2.5ast, 0.6stl, 2.3blk, 2.7tos, 23.7pts

113OR, 101DR, 26.4PER, 58.6TS%, 115.4OWS, 66.4DWS, 181.7WS, .208WS/48, 5.1BPM, 75.5VORP



10 Year Prime -

Karl Malone -1989-1998
816gms, 38.4mins, 53.2fg%, 7.4ftm, 75.1ft%, 10.8reb, 3.6ast, 1.5stl, 0.9blk, 3.0tos, 27.6pts

117OR, 102DR, 25.8PER, 59.4TS%, 98.3OWS, 54.2DWS, 152.5WS, .234WS/48, 6.4BPM, 66.4VORP


Shaquille O'Neal -1994-2003
661gms, 37.8mins, 57.8fg%, 5.8ftm, 53.6ft%, 11.9reb, 3.0ast, 0.7stl, 2.5blk, 2.8tos, 28.1pts

115OR, 101DR, 29.1PER, 58.4TS%, 85.8OWS, 39.3DWS, 125.1WS, .241WS/48, 6.9BPM, 55.8VORP



3 Year Peak -

Karl Malone - 1996-1998
245gms, 37.3mins, 53.3fg%, 6.8ftm, 74.7ft%, 10.0reb, 4.2ast, 1.4stl, 0.7blk 2.8tos, 26.7pts

118OR, 102DR, 27.6PER, 59.1TS%, 33.6OWS, 14.6DWS, 48.2WS, .253WS/48, 7.5BPM, 21.9VORP


Shaquille O'Neal- 2000-2002
220gms, 38.7mins, 57.5fg%, 6.0ftm, 52.9ft%, 12.4reb, 3.5ast, 0.6stl, 2.6blk, 2.8tos, 28.6pts

115OR, 98DR, 30.2PER, 58.0TS%, 31.9OWS, 14.9DWS, 46.8WS, .264WS/48, 8.4BPM, 22.3VORP



PRETTY EVEN STATISTICALLY

Malone a bit better for career, with 269 more games as well.

For ten and three year peak and prime seasons Shaq is a bit better.




Team success -

Career -

Malone's teams- 1986-2003, 18 years =
883 wins from 1362 games (50 in 1999), 53.16 wins per 82 game season, 64.83% per season.

Shaq's teams - 1993-2011, 19 years =
905 wins from 1444 games (50 in 1999), 51.39 wins per 82 games season, 62.67% per season.



10 Year Prime -

Malone's teams (1989-1998) =
556 wins from 820 games, 55.6 wins per season, 67.8% per season.

Shaq's teams (1994-2003) =
546 wins from 788 games, (50 games played in 1999), 56.8 wins per season, 69.3% per season.



3 Year Peak -

Malone's teams (1996-1998) =
181 wins from 246 games, 60.33 wins per season, 73.6% per season.

Shaq's teams (2000-2002) =
181 wins from 246 games, 60.33 wins per season, 73.6% per season.



VERY CLOSE

The factor here is that Shaq had alot more talented teams. The likes of Anfernee Hardaway, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott and Horace Grant. The likes of Kobe Bryant, Eddie Jones, Glen Rice, Elden Campbell, Van Excel, Fisher and Horry. Those two sets of players that Shaq had on both Orlando and Lakers are both much better than Stockton, Hornacek, Russell, Benoit, Eaton and Ostertag.

Malone was also the star and only legit good scorer on his teams every year off his career in Utah. That's 18 years!

Shaq was only the "main" star on his teams from his rookie session until 2004, arguably 2005, and was not the rest of his ring chasing career. That's 12 our 13 years.


There is a legit case for Malone. He carried his teams all his career and they won alot. If their career timelines are reversed, teams going with them, Shaq may not have won any championships in the stacked late 1980s and Jordan 1990s. Malone could've probably won as many of more championships as Shaq in the 2000s.

[70sFan]

No, it's not close. Malone's longevity makes it a little bit closer than it was in reality, but it's still clearly Shaq.

[CLosP]

Malone had a very long, productive career but I’ll take Shaq quite easily on peak and who I’d rather start a franchise with. Also, Shaq has an argument for top 5.

[Stan]

Really? You're out here asking who had the better peak & career between Shaq & Malone

[capfan33]

Uh, I'm not that high on Shaq, but Shaq by a landslide in all 3 categories. I'm not very high on Malone's impact either however.

[ardee]

This is one of the most lopsided comparison threads I've ever seen on here.

Career: I have Shaq 6th, Malone in the 17-20 range.

Peak: I have Shaq 4th, Malone is probably not in the top 30.

Prime: '95-'04 Shaq is probably behind like 4-5 guys in terms of 10 year stretches. Malone's best 10 year stretch is probably something like '91-'00, and I don't think it's top 20.

Shaq is one of the most dominant Playoff performers of all time, and Malone was a guy who consistently came up short.

[migya]

If Malone had Horace on his teams instead of Ostertag from 1995-98 he probably wins three or four championships in those years. His teams were that much lower on talent than Shaq's.

[70sFan]

If Malone had Horace on his teams instead of Ostertag from 1995-98 he probably wins three or four championships in those years. His teams were that much lower on talent than Shaq's.

Ostertag was critical for Utah against the Lakers, as he was the best Shaq defender in the league. Besides, having one of the best backcourts in the league certainly doesn't qualify as having no talent.

[Dutchball97]

Karl Malone was consistently inconsistent in the play-offs. Sticking with the criteria migya looked at we see Malone's numbers drop from 23.9 to 21.1 PER, 57.7 to 52.6 TS%, .205 to .140 WS/48, 5.1 to 4.1 BPM, 113 to 106 ORTG and 101 to 103 DRTG. Despite having a 19 year career and making the post-season every year of his career, he never managed to get 2 consecutive post-seasons with a BPM over 5. WS/48 shows a similar picture with him only having 2 consecutive years of over .150 WS/48 once in his career but this drops to 0 once you bump it up ever so slightly to .155 WS/48.

Shaq from the regular season to the play-offs went from 26.4 to 26.1 PER, 58.6 to 56.5 TS%, .208 to .184 WS/48, 5.1 to 5.5 BPM, 113 to 110 ORTG and 101 to 103 DRTG. Shaq also had a 10 year stretch from 1995 to 2004 where he had at least 5 BPM and .155 WS/48, which Malone couldn't even manage 2 years in a row let alone 10.

That alone settles the debate but it'd be wrong not to even mention Shaq not only having a much higher peak than Malone but also that he has like 5 years better than Malone's best season. It's not a realistic comparison no matter how close the regular season stats might seem on first glance.

[migya]

Karl Malone was consistently inconsistent in the play-offs. Sticking with the criteria migya looked at we see Malone's numbers drop from 23.9 to 21.1 PER, 57.7 to 52.6 TS%, .205 to .140 WS/48, 5.1 to 4.1 BPM, 113 to 106 ORTG and 101 to 103 DRTG. Despite having a 19 year career and making the post-season every year of his career, he never managed to get 2 consecutive post-seasons with a BPM over 5. WS/48 shows a similar picture with him only having 2 consecutive years of over .150 WS/48 once in his career but this drops to 0 once you bump it up ever so slightly to .155 WS/48.

Shaq from the regular season to the play-offs went from 26.4 to 26.1 PER, 58.6 to 56.5 TS%, .208 to .184 WS/48, 5.1 to 5.5 BPM, 113 to 110 ORTG and 101 to 103 DRTG. Shaq also had a 10 year stretch from 1995 to 2004 where he had at least 5 BPM and .155 WS/48, which Malone couldn't even manage 2 years in a row let alone 10.

That alone settles the debate but it'd be wrong not to even mention Shaq not only having a much higher peak than Malone but also that he has like 5 years better than Malone's best season. It's not a realistic comparison no matter how close the regular season stats might seem on first glance.

What you just showed was for playoff career.

For ten year primes and 3 year peak, as I did before:


10 Year Prime-

Karl Malone- 1989-98, 117gms
109OR, 103DR, 23.2PER, 53.3TS%, 9.0PWS, 8.0DWS, 17.0WS, .167WS/48, 5.4BPM, 9.1VORP

Shaquille O'Neal- 1994-2003, 136gms
114OR, 104DR, 28.7PER, 56.8TS%, 17.4OWS, 6.6SWS, 24.0WS, .211WS/48, 7.0BPM, 12.4VORP


3 Year Peak-

Karl Malone- 1996-98, 58gms
105OR, 99DR, 23.3PER, 51.1TS%, 3.2OWS, 4.6DWS, 7.8WS, .160WS/48, 5.7BPM, 4.5VORP

Shaquille O'Neal- 2000-02, 58gms
113PR, 100DR, 29.3PER, 56.2TS%, 8.4PWS, 3.7DWS, 12.1WS, .238WS/48, 7.5BPM, 5.9VORP


For playoffs it's definitely Shaq but I think having more scoring burden on him is why Malone had less numbers than in the RS. Give him a good two way big like Horace, who would open things up, would've allowed Malone to perform better.

Besides his lower efficiency Malone has great numbers across the board and they are comparable to many alltime greats.

[Dutchball97]

Karl Malone was consistently inconsistent in the play-offs. Sticking with the criteria migya looked at we see Malone's numbers drop from 23.9 to 21.1 PER, 57.7 to 52.6 TS%, .205 to .140 WS/48, 5.1 to 4.1 BPM, 113 to 106 ORTG and 101 to 103 DRTG. Despite having a 19 year career and making the post-season every year of his career, he never managed to get 2 consecutive post-seasons with a BPM over 5. WS/48 shows a similar picture with him only having 2 consecutive years of over .150 WS/48 once in his career but this drops to 0 once you bump it up ever so slightly to .155 WS/48.

Shaq from the regular season to the play-offs went from 26.4 to 26.1 PER, 58.6 to 56.5 TS%, .208 to .184 WS/48, 5.1 to 5.5 BPM, 113 to 110 ORTG and 101 to 103 DRTG. Shaq also had a 10 year stretch from 1995 to 2004 where he had at least 5 BPM and .155 WS/48, which Malone couldn't even manage 2 years in a row let alone 10.

That alone settles the debate but it'd be wrong not to even mention Shaq not only having a much higher peak than Malone but also that he has like 5 years better than Malone's best season. It's not a realistic comparison no matter how close the regular season stats might seem on first glance.

What you just showed was for playoff career.

For ten year primes and 3 year peak, as I did before:


10 Year Prime-

Karl Malone- 1989-98, 117gms
109OR, 103DR, 23.2PER, 53.3TS%, 9.0PWS, 8.0DWS, 17.0WS, .167WS/48, 5.4BPM, 9.1VORP

Shaquille O'Neal- 1994-2003, 136gms
114OR, 104DR, 28.7PER, 56.8TS%, 17.4OWS, 6.6SWS, 24.0WS, .211WS/48, 7.0BPM, 12.4VORP


3 Year Peak-

Karl Malone- 1996-98, 58gms
105OR, 99DR, 23.3PER, 51.1TS%, 3.2OWS, 4.6DWS, 7.8WS, .160WS/48, 5.7BPM, 4.5VORP

Shaquille O'Neal- 2000-02, 58gms
113PR, 100DR, 29.3PER, 56.2TS%, 8.4PWS, 3.7DWS, 12.1WS, .238WS/48, 7.5BPM, 5.9VORP


For playoffs it's definitely Shaq but I think having more scoring burden on him is why Malone had less numbers than in the RS. Give him a good two way big like Horace, who would open things up, would've allowed Malone to perform better.

Besides his lower efficiency Malone has great numbers across the board and they are comparable to many alltime greats.

Of course I talked about their careers, no use looking at arbitrary stretches that tell you the same thing, which is Shaq was on a completely different level. Actual all-time greats also aren't reliant on having someone like Horace Grant on the team in order not to crumble in the play-offs.

Malone being unable to string together 2 years in the play-offs has nothing to do with a lack of a 2-way big next to him. He just wasn't build for the post-season. Especially considering he played nearly his entire career next to Stockton. Malone benefitted from getting fed by the all-time assist leader in the regular season but then he couldn't step up in the play-offs when getting a bucket required some more effort on his part. Look at Stockton in the play-offs as well. His production also dropped somewhat but less so than Malone and he was much, much more consistent year to year. This isn't a situation of Malone not living up to the top 10 guys because he had bad teammates, it's because of his level of teammates that he was even able to rack up enough stats for you to entertain this comparison.

Besides all that, if you already knew Shaq had a massive edge in the post-season and the regular season numbers are similar at best, what made you think Malone had any kind of case over Shaq?

[migya]

Karl Malone was consistently inconsistent in the play-offs. Sticking with the criteria migya looked at we see Malone's numbers drop from 23.9 to 21.1 PER, 57.7 to 52.6 TS%, .205 to .140 WS/48, 5.1 to 4.1 BPM, 113 to 106 ORTG and 101 to 103 DRTG. Despite having a 19 year career and making the post-season every year of his career, he never managed to get 2 consecutive post-seasons with a BPM over 5. WS/48 shows a similar picture with him only having 2 consecutive years of over .150 WS/48 once in his career but this drops to 0 once you bump it up ever so slightly to .155 WS/48.

Shaq from the regular season to the play-offs went from 26.4 to 26.1 PER, 58.6 to 56.5 TS%, .208 to .184 WS/48, 5.1 to 5.5 BPM, 113 to 110 ORTG and 101 to 103 DRTG. Shaq also had a 10 year stretch from 1995 to 2004 where he had at least 5 BPM and .155 WS/48, which Malone couldn't even manage 2 years in a row let alone 10.

That alone settles the debate but it'd be wrong not to even mention Shaq not only having a much higher peak than Malone but also that he has like 5 years better than Malone's best season. It's not a realistic comparison no matter how close the regular season stats might seem on first glance.

What you just showed was for playoff career.

For ten year primes and 3 year peak, as I did before:


10 Year Prime-

Karl Malone- 1989-98, 117gms
109OR, 103DR, 23.2PER, 53.3TS%, 9.0PWS, 8.0DWS, 17.0WS, .167WS/48, 5.4BPM, 9.1VORP

Shaquille O'Neal- 1994-2003, 136gms
114OR, 104DR, 28.7PER, 56.8TS%, 17.4OWS, 6.6SWS, 24.0WS, .211WS/48, 7.0BPM, 12.4VORP


3 Year Peak-

Karl Malone- 1996-98, 58gms
105OR, 99DR, 23.3PER, 51.1TS%, 3.2OWS, 4.6DWS, 7.8WS, .160WS/48, 5.7BPM, 4.5VORP

Shaquille O'Neal- 2000-02, 58gms
113PR, 100DR, 29.3PER, 56.2TS%, 8.4PWS, 3.7DWS, 12.1WS, .238WS/48, 7.5BPM, 5.9VORP


For playoffs it's definitely Shaq but I think having more scoring burden on him is why Malone had less numbers than in the RS. Give him a good two way big like Horace, who would open things up, would've allowed Malone to perform better.

Besides his lower efficiency Malone has great numbers across the board and they are comparable to many alltime greats.

Of course I talked about their careers, no use looking at arbitrary stretches that tell you the same thing, which is Shaq was on a completely different level. Actual all-time greats also aren't reliant on having someone like Horace Grant on the team in order not to crumble in the play-offs.

Malone being unable to string together 2 years in the play-offs has nothing to do with a lack of a 2-way big next to him. He just wasn't build for the post-season. Especially considering he played nearly his entire career next to Stockton. Malone benefitted from getting fed by the all-time assist leader in the regular season but then he couldn't step up in the play-offs when getting a bucket required some more effort on his part. Look at Stockton in the play-offs as well. His production also dropped somewhat but less so than Malone and he was much, much more consistent year to year. This isn't a situation of Malone not living up to the top 10 guys because he had bad teammates, it's because of his level of teammates that he was even able to rack up enough stats for you to entertain this comparison.

Besides all that, if you already knew Shaq had a massive edge in the post-season and the regular season numbers are similar at best, what made you think Malone had any kind of case over Shaq?

Malone does have a case because playoffs isn't more than RS. The numbers are very similar and Malone was great for longer than Shaq. Shaq is a top 10 player but Malone isn't far behind.