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Which two years would you take if starting a clean roster

Again, what is deceptive about Jokic’s statistical output to even make this a comparison?

Is his contested rebound game non-existent. Did he not get KG/Howard defensive rebounding based in positioning and physicality or was it like Giannis or Lamsrcus Aldridge? Feasting on godly boxouts from his teammates(both Lopez brothers).

Is his passing not that high of quality, his shot creation? Finishing? Screening?

Why would someone ignore the stat gap in favor of Jokic?

Because on raw playing levels this just isn’t all that close.

Wade slightly. 2022 Jokic is slightly better than either of those years but I'd put 2021 comfortably behind. Hopefully some trolls don't jump in here and say how it's Jokic easily or something.

ShotCreator wrote:Again, what is deceptive about Jokic’s statistical output to even make this a comparison?

Why would someone ignore the stat gap in favor of Jokic?

Because on raw playing levels this just isn’t all that close.

2022 Jokic on/off: +16.4
2021 Jokic on/off: +6.4

2006 Wade on/off: +15.2
2009 Wade on/off: +14.2

What suggests Jokic had way more impact? And don't say PER and BPM.

I think I might go with Jokic here actually. Not 100% sold on his defense still, but his offense is generational. It's similar to Magic vs Wade to me in this case.

ShotCreator wrote:Because on raw playing levels this just isn’t all that close.

You have very strange habit of coming into reasonable comparisons and calling it clear and easy...

No-more-rings wrote:

ShotCreator wrote:Again, what is deceptive about Jokic’s statistical output to even make this a comparison?

Why would someone ignore the stat gap in favor of Jokic?

Because on raw playing levels this just isn’t all that close.

2022 Jokic on/off: +16.4
2021 Jokic on/off: +6.4

2006 Wade on/off: +15.2
2009 Wade on/off: +14.2

Wade suggests Jokic had way more impact? And don't say PER and BPM.

On/Off isn't impact. Its how much a team does with you on a court versus not on the court.

Jokic's stats are inflated in this small ball era. Wade in his prime is one of the most impactful guards in the history of the game. Bona fide champion. Easily Wade. Jokic has one playoffs where he got out of the first round, we need to see much more to be compared with players of Wade's caliber. Stats in this era don't excite me anymore, you have to look at the nuances.

Gooner wrote:Jokic's stats are inflated in this small ball era. Wade in his prime is one of the most impactful guards in the history of the game. Bona fide champion. Easily Wade. Jokic has one playoffs where he got out of the first round, we need to see much more to be compared with players of Wade's caliber. Stats in this era don't excite me anymore, you have to look at the nuances.

Jokic got out of the first round 3 times...

70sFan wrote:

Gooner wrote:Jokic's stats are inflated in this small ball era. Wade in his prime is one of the most impactful guards in the history of the game. Bona fide champion. Easily Wade. Jokic has one playoffs where he got out of the first round, we need to see much more to be compared with players of Wade's caliber. Stats in this era don't excite me anymore, you have to look at the nuances.

Jokic got out of the first round 3 times...

Yes, you are right, I forgot San Antonio in 7 from 2019, and Portland last year. In the bubble they got to conference finals and I remembered that. Still, he is not in Wade's class.

Gooner wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Gooner wrote:Jokic's stats are inflated in this small ball era. Wade in his prime is one of the most impactful guards in the history of the game. Bona fide champion. Easily Wade. Jokic has one playoffs where he got out of the first round, we need to see much more to be compared with players of Wade's caliber. Stats in this era don't excite me anymore, you have to look at the nuances.

Jokic got out of the first round 3 times...

Yes, you are right, I forgot San Antonio in 7 from 2019, and Portland last year. In the bubble they got to conference finals and I remembered that. Still, he is not in Wade's class.

So, you ask people to look at nuances, but you can't even get right such a basic thing?

By the way, what nuances make you believe that Jokic isn't in Wade's class? Jokic has been consistently great in the postseason, he just doesn't have good teams around him during the last two seasons. Wade didn't do any better after 2006, until James joined him.

Colbinii wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:

ShotCreator wrote:Again, what is deceptive about Jokic’s statistical output to even make this a comparison?

Why would someone ignore the stat gap in favor of Jokic?

Because on raw playing levels this just isn’t all that close.

2022 Jokic on/off: +16.4
2021 Jokic on/off: +6.4

2006 Wade on/off: +15.2
2009 Wade on/off: +14.2

Wade suggests Jokic had way more impact? And don't say PER and BPM.

On/Off isn't impact. Its how much a team does with you on a court versus not on the court.

What do you consider measurable impact then?

No-more-rings wrote:

ShotCreator wrote:Again, what is deceptive about Jokic’s statistical output to even make this a comparison?

Why would someone ignore the stat gap in favor of Jokic?

Because on raw playing levels this just isn’t all that close.

2022 Jokic on/off: +16.4
2021 Jokic on/off: +6.4

2006 Wade on/off: +15.2
2009 Wade on/off: +14.2

What suggests Jokic had way more impact? And don't say PER and BPM.

22 Jokic is completely tiered up over every year mentioned ITT.

Lost weight and took his defense at least two tiers up and improved on raw shot creation.

Every single impact metric of that can be found has Jokic tiered up over the entire league in a way Wade wasn’t. Wade was not separate from the Nash’s and Dirk’s of the league in these years, by the metrics. Which I take over box scores sand narratives. Or at least give more weight to.

High impact lesser role guys like Garnett and Ginobili will rate Wade level on impact metrics in 09.

He was not some ridiculous outlier. On raw skill he is clearly worse than Jokic, categorically. He can’t run an offense better, and he never reached the defensive highs.


Jokic guarded the pick and roll better than near any big man and managed to get down and rebound like peak Wilt defensively simultaneously.

This was not some regular MVP player season. Wade can be compared to literally any high volume lead guard ever in their athletic peak. Westbrook, Nash, Paul, Kobe, Harden, etc. strengths, weaknesses.

Meanwhile Jokic excelled at every facet of basketball for a full season. And its not really an era built for him like pre-2015 would be.o

I want to say also, 21 Jokic also tiered up over the league statistically. A league with prime Curry, Giannis, Embiid.

And he flat out topped prime Curry in offensive impact. In a worse year for himself, 2021.

You don’t have to do too much connecting dots to realize it wasn’t a regular kind of dominant.

Guy does Peak LeBron offensive creation volume with Kyle Korver efficiency but with the time of possession of a sixth man, which doesn’t even sound real, and it’s automatically comparable to regular superstar levels of play, because it’s being compared by someone? Nah.

I would take 2006/2009 Wade over 2021 Jokic, even though it's very close. Jokic is just an incredible offensive player.

I do think 2022 Jokic is superlative though. Like it's probably a top 5 RS of all-time. I don't think Wade ever approached that and Jokic was just as good in the playoffs.

So I'd go Jokic, but it's very close. 2006 Wade just decimated the Pistons. He did better against them offensively by a good amount than Lebron did a year later(despite people labelling it a Lebron carry-job).

You can make arguments both ways. I do think Jokic is more 'portable' too.

Gooner wrote:Jokic's stats are inflated in this small ball era. Wade in his prime is one of the most impactful guards in the history of the game. Bona fide champion. Easily Wade. Jokic has one playoffs where he got out of the first round, we need to see much more to be compared with players of Wade's caliber. Stats in this era don't excite me anymore, you have to look at the nuances.

nuances=ringz?

Wade had Jordanesque peak. I'd pick him over Jokic's peak which is similar to Magic's.

70sFan wrote:

Gooner wrote:

70sFan wrote:Jokic got out of the first round 3 times...

Yes, you are right, I forgot San Antonio in 7 from 2019, and Portland last year. In the bubble they got to conference finals and I remembered that. Still, he is not in Wade's class.

So, you ask people to look at nuances, but you can't even get right such a basic thing?

By the way, what nuances make you believe that Jokic isn't in Wade's class? Jokic has been consistently great in the postseason, he just doesn't have good teams around him during the last two seasons. Wade didn't do any better after 2006, until James joined him.

I just forgot for a moment, that's all. I watched that series against Spurs that they won, and then next round against Portland when they lost in 7. I watched both game 7's.

Nuances that I'm talking about is looking how Jokic is being guarded in this era. He goes 1-1 against small guys on switches in a 3 point era. Even most centers today are small or light. He has so much space to work with and physicality has been completely taken out of the game. Not a fair comparison to a guy like Wade who had one of the best finals performances ever. And he had his best years in a more defensive NBA. Wade would be flat out unstoppable today with his ability to attack the paint. He would average 35 and 7 on 50% shooting.

Gooner wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Gooner wrote:
Yes, you are right, I forgot San Antonio in 7 from 2019, and Portland last year. In the bubble they got to conference finals and I remembered that. Still, he is not in Wade's class.

So, you ask people to look at nuances, but you can't even get right such a basic thing?

By the way, what nuances make you believe that Jokic isn't in Wade's class? Jokic has been consistently great in the postseason, he just doesn't have good teams around him during the last two seasons. Wade didn't do any better after 2006, until James joined him.

I just forgot for a moment, that's all. I watched that series against Spurs that they won, and then next round against Portland when they lost in 7. I watched both game 7's.

Nuances that I'm talking about is looking how Jokic is being guarded in this era. He goes 1-1 against small guys on switches in a 3 point era. Even most centers today are small or light. He has so much space to work with and physicality has been completely taken out of the game. Not a fair comparison to a guy like Wade who had one of the best finals performances ever. And he had his best years in a more defensive NBA. Wade would be flat out unstoppable today with his ability to attack the paint. He would average 35 and 7 on 50% shooting.

If you really want to talk about nuances, then Jokic is guarded by more sophisticated defensive systems than players during illegal defense era. You can go no further than watching Warriors doing amazing job at preventing Jokic from his comfortable spots, yet he solved them after 2 games, averaging 30+ppg on ridiculous efficiency. He didn't have space at all in these games, Nuggets supporting cast was horrible.

You should also stop this myth about all teams being undersized today. When you look at all playoffs teams, majority of them have big, powerful centers. Among all playoffs teams, only Nets, Raptors and Mavs don't have traditional rim protecting center.

CodeBreaker wrote:Wade had Jordanesque peak. I'd pick him over Jokic's peak which is similar to Magic's.

Just for fun, would you take Wade's peak over Magic's peak?

Jokic peaked higher than Wade this year and last year he wasn't too shabby. I'd go with Jokic.