RealGM

Who is the better player?

Still Magic to me, although it's as close as it gets. I just think Magic's dribble game gives him advantage, while he could do almost everythying as well as Jokic (maybe except shooting).

70sFan wrote:Still Magic to me, although it's as close as it gets. I just think Magic's dribble game gives him advantage, while he could do almost everythying as well as Jokic (maybe except shooting).

The rebounding difference is bigger than shooting

dygaction wrote:

70sFan wrote:Still Magic to me, although it's as close as it gets. I just think Magic's dribble game gives him advantage, while he could do almost everythying as well as Jokic (maybe except shooting).

The rebounding difference is bigger than shooting

True, Jokic's offensive rebounding is also very important factor.

magic efficiency relative to era was actuallt comparable to jokic wasnt it? jokic obvioualy has the better 3-pointer although i suspect 90 magic would be a good 3 point ahooter too if he started his career in the 2010's

In addition to the rebounding IMO Jokic generally has more scoring volume as part of his game than Magic, even in regular-season get-everyone-involved mode (and Jokic seems to be a guy who can increase his volume significantly in postseason).

I think the big arguments for Magic are conditioning / endurance and the fact that Jokic plays center while being only above-average as a defender.

falcolombardi wrote:magic efficiency relative to era was actuallt comparable to jokic wasnt it?

Yeah, basically identical.

i think people may be sleeping a bit on magic as a scorer in his peak

he feels like a player who could have been a 28-30 points a game guy in great efficiency if that was the role wanted or was asked to play

but of course without proof of him doing it is not as simple as just assuming it

Dooley wrote:In addition to the rebounding IMO Jokic generally has more scoring volume as part of his game than Magic, even in regular-season get-everyone-involved mode (and Jokic seems to be a guy who can increase his volume significantly in postseason).

I think the big arguments for Magic are conditioning / endurance and the fact that Jokic plays center while being only above-average as a defender.

How much of that is caused by the difference in skillset and what in approach though? Magic never had problems with increasing his scoring volume and he didn't lack anything in scoring repertoire.

70sFan wrote:How much of that is caused by the difference in skillset and what in approach though? Magic never had problems with increasing his scoring volume and he didn't lack anything in scoring repertoire.

Absolutely, a lot of Magic's lower volume had to do with approach rather than skillset. He had a ton of scoring talent and could have increased his volume under different circumstances. But I think you could say much the same about Jokic, who is not exactly a guy with a big score-first mindset, especially in the regular season. I think both Jokic and Magic could probably increase their scoring volume, probably at some cost to their efficiency, and the biggest reason that they don't is mostly just not wired that way.

I do think there are some small advantages that Jokic has as a scorer that Magic doesn't have, for instance I think his advantage as an offensive rebounder probably gives him some easy buckets that Magic doesn't get. But also, Magic had the mindset he had; the result was he did score less than Jokic. And it's tricky for me to see what positive trade-off there was to make up for Magic taking fewer shots and scoring less, at least when you're comparing him to Jokic specifically. The big advantage of Magic scoring less is obviously that he passes more, but then Jokic is a phenomenal passer in his own right.

Dooley wrote:

70sFan wrote:How much of that is caused by the difference in skillset and what in approach though? Magic never had problems with increasing his scoring volume and he didn't lack anything in scoring repertoire.

Absolutely, a lot of Magic's lower volume had to do with approach rather than skillset. He had a ton of scoring talent and could have increased his volume under different circumstances. But I think you could say much the same about Jokic, who is not exactly a guy with a big score-first mindset, especially in the regular season. I think both Jokic and Magic could probably increase their scoring volume, probably at some cost to their efficiency, and the biggest reason that they don't is mostly just not wired that way.

I do think there are some small advantages that Jokic has as a scorer that Magic doesn't have, for instance I think his advantage as an offensive rebounder probably gives him some easy buckets that Magic doesn't get. But also, Magic had the mindset he had; the result was he did score less than Jokic. And it's tricky for me to see what positive trade-off there was to make up for Magic taking fewer shots and scoring less, at least when you're comparing him to Jokic specifically. The big advantage of Magic scoring less is obviously that he passes more, but then Jokic is a phenomenal passer in his own right.

the advantage is the same both ways, if both players are given as many possesions then magic will pass more and jokic will shot more, the consequenxe of shooting more is that jokic will set up teammates less

magic created some of the greatest offenses ever so is clear his approach scales well in talented teams as well as in weaker teams (as we saw in 91)

with jokic we actually still have to see him leading a magic level dominant offense, which he may probably do when he gets murray or mpj back but just like with magic higher scoring, is a hypothetical until it happens

Dooley wrote:

70sFan wrote:How much of that is caused by the difference in skillset and what in approach though? Magic never had problems with increasing his scoring volume and he didn't lack anything in scoring repertoire.

Absolutely, a lot of Magic's lower volume had to do with approach rather than skillset. He had a ton of scoring talent and could have increased his volume under different circumstances. But I think you could say much the same about Jokic, who is not exactly a guy with a big score-first mindset, especially in the regular season. I think both Jokic and Magic could probably increase their scoring volume, probably at some cost to their efficiency, and the biggest reason that they don't is mostly just not wired that way.

I do think there are some small advantages that Jokic has as a scorer that Magic doesn't have, for instance I think his advantage as an offensive rebounder probably gives him some easy buckets that Magic doesn't get. But also, Magic had the mindset he had; the result was he did score less than Jokic. And it's tricky for me to see what positive trade-off there was to make up for Magic taking fewer shots and scoring less, at least when you're comparing him to Jokic specifically. The big advantage of Magic scoring less is obviously that he passes more, but then Jokic is a phenomenal passer in his own right.

Offensive rebounding is a strong advantage for Jokic indeed, but I don't agree that Magic can't create easy baskets in other way. For starters, Magic was possibly the best transition player ever and he could generate layups on fast opportunities in a way Jokic isn't capable of.

All in all, I think they aren't far apart but Magic's dribbling game gives him the edge over Jokic rebounding.

Magic lost to KJ with HCA.

JordansBulls wrote:Magic lost to KJ with HCA.

While playing like the best player in the world...

70sFan wrote:

JordansBulls wrote:Magic lost to KJ with HCA.

While playing like the best player in the world...

Yeah, I'm not sure what JB wants from Magic on that one. KJ, Chambers and Hornacek torched them. Worthy looked like absolute dog crap.

Magic, for everyone complaining that he didn't score enough, threw out 30/6/12 on 61.6% TS, and had 43 in each of the last two games. He was a monster, and it just wasn't enough because LA didn't do enough around him. Seriously, in those last two losses...

43/6/10 on 57.7% FG and 43/8/7 on 57.7% FG again. Not a ton he could have done in that series to change the outcome. LA couldn't defend Phoenix and Worthy couldn't score, so they were in all kinds of hot water.

JordansBulls wrote:Magic lost to KJ with HCA.

The only reason the Bulls won 6 titles in the 1990s was because the Celtics, Pistons and Lakers were no longer dominant like in the 1980s

I have 1990 as Magic offensive peak so ill go with him

Homer38 wrote:

JordansBulls wrote:Magic lost to KJ with HCA.

The only reason the Bulls won 6 titles in the 1990s was because the Celtics, Pistons and Lakers were no longer dominant like in the 1980s

Lmao come back with the haymaker.