Offense: Moses vs Wilt vs Barkley

[EasternHeretic]

Offensively how do you rank these 3?

[No-more-rings]

Barkley
Wilt
Moses

[70sFan]

That's tough, if I had to choose I'd go with that order:

Barkley
Moses
Wilt

for peaks.

[coastalmarker99]

Give me the guy who averaged over 40 PPG for seven seasons and who was averaging over 30 PPG in the postseason through his first 100 postseason games despite facing two Goat defenders in Nate and Russell in basically half of them.

[migya]

Chamberlain number 1 by 10 miles. Moses is underrated and is basically equal to Barkley.

[coastalmarker99]

Chamberlain number 1 by 10 miles. Moses is underrated and is basically equal to Barkley.

Looking at the number of 65 point games that Wilt had to everyone else in NBA history combined is comical.


As Wilt had 15 games with 65 plus points while everyone else in NBA combined only has 8 games.


Wilt is also the only player to ever average above 40 PPG in a season which he did multiple times throughout his career.


Also another fun fact about Wilt.

most 50-point games:

Wilt (1962), 45
Jordan (career), 31
Wilt (1963), 30

Most 60-point games:

Wilt (1962), 15
Wilt (1963), 9
Kobe (career), 6

[migya]

Chamberlain number 1 by 10 miles. Moses is underrated and is basically equal to Barkley.

Looking at the number of 65 point games that Wilt had to everyone else in NBA history combined is comical.


As Wilt had 15 games with 65 plus points while everyone else in NBA combined only has 8 games.

The man is my choice for GOAT. Used to be Jordan but Chamberlain is just way ahead of everyone in what he did. Pity he wasn't twenty years younger, he'd have dominated the 80s and early 90s.

[coastalmarker99]

Chamberlain number 1 by 10 miles. Moses is underrated and is basically equal to Barkley.

Looking at the number of 65 point games that Wilt had to everyone else in NBA history combined is comical.


As Wilt had 15 games with 65 plus points while everyone else in NBA combined only has 8 games.

The man is my choice for GOAT. Used to be Jordan but Chamberlain is just way ahead of everyone in what he did. Pity he wasn't twenty years younger, he'd have dominated the 80s and early 90s.

For the record, Chamberlain faced Lovellette, Cowens, Hayes, Unseld, Reed, Bellamy, McAdoo, Lanier, Thurmond, Russell, Gilmore (yep, and badly outplayed him in the 71-72 ABA-NBA ASG), and Kareem.

All are in the HOF. And please keep in mind that Chamberlain played in leagues between eight to 17 teams.

He was facing these guys on a nightly basis.

And he either outplayed or downright dominated them all (only a peak Kareem would have an argument...

and again, in their two playoff series H2H's, a way-past-peak Wilt was giving him all he could handle")

Ok, ...how about some quick comparisons between what a prime Chamberlain did against the same centers that a peak Kareem would face a few years later.

Willis Reed. A prime Chamberlain only faced a Reed, at center, in 12 games early in their career, and two more in the '68-69 season...and battered him.

Kareem's high game against Reed...41 points.

Wilt averaged 38.6 ppg against Reed in their 12 H2Hs in the '65 season...

which included beatdowns by margins of 46-25, 41-9, 52-23, and even 58-28.

In their two H2H's in the '69 season (and before Wilt shredded his knee early on in the 69-70 season), Wilt outscored Reed by a 28 ppg to 20 ppg margin, outrebounded him by a 22.0 to 9.5 rpg margin, and outshot him from the field by a .68.8 to .45.9 margin.

incidentally, I always get a kick out of those that use Reed's two Finals ('70 and '73) against Wilt (and even though Wilt still outplayed him in both). Those two series came after Wilt's major knee surgery.

Connie Dierking. Dierking is interesting.


A Chamberlain, at the beginning of his '69-70 season, and just before he blew out his knee, put up a 43 point game on Dierking.

And just the season before, in a season in which Wilt averaged about 10 FGAs, he hung a 60 point game on Dierking.

A peak Kareem faced Dierking over the span of several seasons...and his high game was 41 points.

Now, how about a prime Chamberlain against Dierking?

Many 40+ point games including a 63 point game, and another game in which he outscored Dierking by a 59-4 margin.

Jim Fox. This isn't really fair to Wilt. A prime Chamberlain never faced Fox. Now, a peak Kareem faced him on many occasions, and his high game...again... 41 points.

Wilt faced Fox in his 68-69 season, and in one game, he hung a 66 point game on him (on 29-35 shooting.) Oh, and in the game in which Wilt shredded his knee in '69?

He had scored 33 points, in 28 minutes, and on 13-14 shooting. He was well on his way to a 40+ point game, and perhaps his last 50 point game.

Darrell Imhoff. Kareem's high game against Imhoff? 46 points.

How about Wilt's high game against Imhoff. Yep... 100 points (granted, not all of the scoring came against Imhoff.)

Wilt had many huge games against Imhoff in his career, but how about Imhoff's favourite game against Wilt? After Chamberlain had hung the 100, the two met a couple of days later.

Imhoff tells the story that he busted his ass the entire game. Fronted, backed, hacked, you name it. Played his heart out. And as he was leaving the floor in the last minute, he received a standing ovation (the only time in his career BTW.) Why? Because he had "held" Wilt to 58 points!

Thurmond,

A peak Kareem, in the 35 H2H's against a full-time Thurmond, had a total of five 30+ point games against him, with a high game of 34 points.

In their first 13 H2H games, Chamberlain had SIX 30+ games against Nate, including games of 38 and 45.

Finally...Walt Bellamy. First of all, "Bells" was listed at 6-11, but Marty Blake measured him at 7-0 barefoot.

Kareem battled fading Bellamy in 25 H2H's. His high game against Bellamy... 40 points. His next highest... 39 points. His next highest... 35 points.

Now, how about Wilt? In their very first H2H game, Bellamy came into the game averaging 30 ppg.

Chamberlain proceeded to block his first nine shots and wound up outscoring Bellamy by a 53-14 margin.


In their first 10 H2H games, all in the 61-62 season... Wilt averaged 52.7 ppg against Bellamy.

In his next 10 H2H's, in the 62-63 season, Chamberlain averaged 43.7 ppg.

So, in their first 20 straight games, Wilt averaged 48.2 ppg.

Which included three games of 60+, and a high game of 73 (with 36 rebounds BTW.)

Chamberlain continued to pound Bellamy their entire career

(for instance, in his '67 season, Wilt averaged 22.7 ppg on...get this... a .70.9 FG%, which included a 35 point game on 15-18 shooting.)


BTW, Chamberlain and rookie Kareem (Alcindor) met in one game, before Chamberlain's injury.

In that game, Wilt outscored Kareem, 25-23; outrebounded him, 25-20; out assisted him, 5-2; out-blocked him, 3-2 (which included two "unblockable" sky-hooks), and outshot him from the field by a 9-14 to 9-21 margin.

[coastalmarker99]

Honestly what people forget is that Wilt's scoring numbers would have even been more god-like had he been allowed to play as physical as he wanted to.

Watch on YouTube

Seriously through If Wilt was allowed to get away with the stuff that Shaq did.

Half of the NBA in the 1960s would have entered themselves into witness protection.

Watch on YouTube

This video best displays to me how funny it would have been to see Wilt play like a brute.



Here is another video that displays how much more unstoppable Wilt would have been had he just decided to take it to the basket every play and just bully people.

Watch on YouTube

Watch the number 2 dunk at the 2-minute mark he basically makes Russell look as if he is a child.

[70sFan]

People should keep in mind that scoring isn't the only part of offense. I have these three very close and it's ridiculous to say that one is much better than the rest.

Of course Wilt was clearly the best player overall because of his defense, but it shouldn't be the part of this thread.

[migya]

People should keep in mind that scoring isn't the only part of offense. I have these three very close and it's ridiculous to say that one is much better than the rest.

Of course Wilt was clearly the best player overall because of his defense, but it shouldn't be the part of this thread.

Chamberlain was the much better scorer, no comparison, he was that good. He was also the better passer, as he showed in his Philly days.

[Dutchball97]

Funny how Wilt stans keep forgetting the early 60s was such a different pace than anything before or after. Teams shot 20 FGA more than they do now and Wilt surely gobbled up a lot of those shots. Wilt didn't have 50 PPG in 62 because he was some kind of mythical figure who could do things they can't even replicate 60 years later despite much more advanced diets, medicine, training and tactics, he averaged 50 PPG because he took 40 shots a game on average and that's not even including the 17 free throws he took per game.

Wilt was a great scorer but it's this kind of no nuance talk where raw ppg in a hyper inflated era gets brought up as some kind of end all be all evidence time and time again that makes people not take this hype seriously.

[coastalmarker99]

Funny how Wilt stans keep forgetting the early 60s was such a different pace than anything before or after. Teams shot 20 FGA more than they do now and Wilt surely gobbled up a lot of those shots. Wilt didn't have 50 PPG in 62 because he was some kind of mythical figure who could do things they can't even replicate 60 years later despite much more advanced diets, medicine, training and tactics, he averaged 50 PPG because he took 40 shots a game on average and that's not even including the 17 free throws he took per game.

Wilt was a great scorer but it's this kind of no nuance talk where raw ppg in a hyper inflated era gets brought up as some kind of end all be all evidence time and time again that makes people not take this hype seriously.

If you take Wilt and his four highest-scoring seasons out from Nba history then MJ's 37.1 ppg would be the all-time record, and James Harden who plays today would be next at 36.1 ppg along with Rick Barry at 35.6 ppg then Kobe at 35.4 ppg.

BTW, Kareem's 34.8 ppg in '72 (also in the Chamberlain-era), is 10th all-time, and Baylor's 60-61 season of 34.8 ppg is 11th.


So, strike Chamberlain from the record book, and the numbers are far more normal across all eras.

So it must be asked...why was it Chamberlain who was the only player in Nba history putting up those staggering scoring, rebounding, FG%s, seasons.

Maybe It's because he really was that much better than his contemporaries as an individual player.

[coastalmarker99]

The list of players who "can" average 50 or 40 a game efficiently if they wanted to.


Begins with Wilt Chamberlain and ends with Wilt Chamberlain.


If another player could even come close to that they'd have already done it by now.


The mid 30's per game seems to be the realistic limit for most of NBA history's gifted scorers and even then, few have ever maintained those kinds of volumes with efficiency

And we have seen what the two other greatest scorers in the history of the NBA were capable of.

MJ, playing alongside a poor supporting cast in 86-87, averaged 37.1 ppg, while Kobe, with a putrid roster in '06, averaged 35.4 ppg.

Both of them had the "green light" all season long in those years, and never came close to even 40 ppg, much less 50.

[coastalmarker99]

BTW, and as most here are aware, Chamberlain averaged 48.5 mpg in his 61-62 season.

In a season in which he played a ton of back-to-back games, and which included several separate stretches of 3-4-and even-5 games in a row.

For those that would suggest another player could average 50 or 40 ppg, give me an example of one other player who accomplished what Chamberlain did in that 1962 or 1963 season.

The only player who challenged those numbers, ...was Wilt, himself.

At MJ's peak, he averaged 40 mpg. Kobe was at 41.5 mpg. Shaq had one season of 40 mpg, as did Hakeem.


And while I'm sure that all of them were capable of more mpg, does anyone in their right mind believe that they could sustain the same efficiency playing 48 mpg, instead of 40?

Night-after-night? Much less in a condensed schedule that Wilt had in '62?

[Dutchball97]

Funny how Wilt stans keep forgetting the early 60s was such a different pace than anything before or after. Teams shot 20 FGA more than they do now and Wilt surely gobbled up a lot of those shots. Wilt didn't have 50 PPG in 62 because he was some kind of mythical figure who could do things they can't even replicate 60 years later despite much more advanced diets, medicine, training and tactics, he averaged 50 PPG because he took 40 shots a game on average and that's not even including the 17 free throws he took per game.

Wilt was a great scorer but it's this kind of no nuance talk where raw ppg in a hyper inflated era gets brought up as some kind of end all be all evidence time and time again that makes people not take this hype seriously.

If you take Wilt and his four highest-scoring seasons out from Nba history then MJ's 37.1 ppg would be the all-time record, and James Harden who plays today would be next at 36.1 ppg along with Rick Barry at 35.6 ppg then Kobe at 35.4 ppg.

BTW, Kareem's 34.8 ppg in '72 (also in the Chamberlain-era), is 10th all-time, and Baylor's 60-61 season of 34.8 ppg is 11th.


So, strike Chamberlain from the record book, and the numbers are far more normal across all eras.

So it must be asked...why was it Chamberlain who was the only player in Nba history putting up those staggering scoring, rebounding, FG%s, seasons.

Maybe It's because he really was that much better than his contemporaries as an individual player.

Wilt had 3159 field goal attempts in 1962, second place was Pettit with 1928 attempts. Only 9 players (8 + Wilt himself) attempted more field goals than Wilt MISSED that year. Even within the era where the pace was through the roof Wilt shot so much more than anyone else it isn't even funny. Look at the 21/22 season where the most field goal attempts were made by Tatum with 1564, which is just 2 more than Wilt had missed field goals in the 61/62 season.

I'd also like to point out that while Kareem and Wilt played together for some years, their top scoring years did not come in the same era. Like I said teams shot 108 times on average in 1962 but only 96 times in 1972. In 1972 Kareem led the league in field goal attempts for the only time in his career and he still shot more than 1000 shots less than Wilt in 62 (3159 vs 2019 FGA). You keep comparing these scoring numbers like they were put up in the same situation when they're clearly not.

Could go into how the massive amounts of field goal attempts and mediocre efficiency in the early 60s also led to tons of rebounds, Russell and Lucas especially came close to Wilt's totals in multiple years. I think this is best illustrated by the fact that out of the top 50 rebounding seasons only Rodman's 92 season is in the modern era.

FG% is another thing that didn't go nuclear untill his volume dropped and even then he has a lower TS% than Barkley had in multiple prime seasons due to Wilt's putrid FT%.

[70sFan]

People should keep in mind that scoring isn't the only part of offense. I have these three very close and it's ridiculous to say that one is much better than the rest.

Of course Wilt was clearly the best player overall because of his defense, but it shouldn't be the part of this thread.

Chamberlain was the much better scorer, no comparison, he was that good. He was also the better passer, as he showed in his Philly days.

It's not that clear that he's the best scorer. I would probably agree, but Barkley was incredibly efficient and Moses had less weaknesses.

To be fair tough, I might pick Wilt ahead of Moses with more thinking about it. It is tough decision.

[Max123]

BTW, and as most here are aware, Chamberlain averaged 48.5 mpg in his 61-62 season.

In a season in which he played a ton of back-to-back games, and which included several separate stretches of 3-4-and even-5 games in a row.

For those that would suggest another player could average 50 or 40 ppg, give me an example of one other player who accomplished what Chamberlain did in that 1962 or 1963 season.

The only player who challenged those numbers, ...was Wilt, himself.

At MJ's peak, he averaged 40 mpg. Kobe was at 41.5 mpg. Shaq had one season of 40 mpg, as did Hakeem.


And while I'm sure that all of them were capable of more mpg, does anyone in their right mind believe that they could sustain the same efficiency playing 48 mpg, instead of 40?

Night-after-night? Much less in a condensed schedule that Wilt had in '62?

Didn't Kobe and MJ, and maybe some other player as well I am only aware of these two, score more points per possession than Wilt in their highest scoring volume seasons?

[70sFan]

BTW, and as most here are aware, Chamberlain averaged 48.5 mpg in his 61-62 season.

In a season in which he played a ton of back-to-back games, and which included several separate stretches of 3-4-and even-5 games in a row.

For those that would suggest another player could average 50 or 40 ppg, give me an example of one other player who accomplished what Chamberlain did in that 1962 or 1963 season.

The only player who challenged those numbers, ...was Wilt, himself.

At MJ's peak, he averaged 40 mpg. Kobe was at 41.5 mpg. Shaq had one season of 40 mpg, as did Hakeem.


And while I'm sure that all of them were capable of more mpg, does anyone in their right mind believe that they could sustain the same efficiency playing 48 mpg, instead of 40?

Night-after-night? Much less in a condensed schedule that Wilt had in '62?

Didn't Kobe and MJ, and maybe some other player as well I am only aware of these two, score more points per possession than Wilt in their highest scoring volume seasons?

Harden and Giannis did as well. That said, we shouldn't limit our analysis strictly to per possession numbers. It's just a rate, not real on court production.

[Max123]

BTW, and as most here are aware, Chamberlain averaged 48.5 mpg in his 61-62 season.

In a season in which he played a ton of back-to-back games, and which included several separate stretches of 3-4-and even-5 games in a row.

For those that would suggest another player could average 50 or 40 ppg, give me an example of one other player who accomplished what Chamberlain did in that 1962 or 1963 season.

The only player who challenged those numbers, ...was Wilt, himself.

At MJ's peak, he averaged 40 mpg. Kobe was at 41.5 mpg. Shaq had one season of 40 mpg, as did Hakeem.


And while I'm sure that all of them were capable of more mpg, does anyone in their right mind believe that they could sustain the same efficiency playing 48 mpg, instead of 40?

Night-after-night? Much less in a condensed schedule that Wilt had in '62?

Didn't Kobe and MJ, and maybe some other player as well I am only aware of these two, score more points per possession than Wilt in their highest scoring volume seasons?

Harden and Giannis did as well. That said, we shouldn't limit our analysis strictly to per possession numbers. It's just a rate, not real on court production.

Agreed, I personally usually find very little value in comparing much of anything box score related; just thought I'd make the point here to illustrate the effect of pace on these stats.