Could Wilt have averaged 60 to 65 PPG in one season had he been allowed to play like Shaq did

[coastalmarker99]

Here's is Wilt's take on this.

''If I just went out and took it to the basket every time I'd have averaged 60 to 65 points a game''.

And I am seriously starting to think that Wilt's being truthful when he says that.


As his scoring numbers would have even been more god-like had he been allowed to play as physical as he wanted to.

Watch on YouTube

Seriously through If Wilt was allowed to get away with the stuff that Shaq did.

Half of the NBA in the 1960s would have entered themselves into witness protection.

Watch on YouTube

This video best displays to me how funny it would have been to see Wilt play like a brute.


Here is another video that displays how much more unstoppable Wilt would have been had he just decided to take it to the basket every play and just bully people.

Watch on YouTube

Watch the number 2 dunk at the 2-minute mark he basically makes Russell look as if he is a child.

[migya]

I had posted that first video a few weeks ago. Chamberlain would've averaged 80 if he was allowed to do what Shaq did. Shaq fouled nearly every time with the way he played.

[coastalmarker99]

The only Center that I think would be seriously strong enough to stop an incredibly aggressive Wilt from going to the basket every single time for dunks is Nate.


Everybody else including Russell would get abused.


Here are some quotes about how strong Wilt was.

"I still remember the time when one of our strongest men, Gene Conley, decided to fight Chamberlain for the ball.

He grabbed it and hung on and Chamberlain just lifted him and ball right up towards the rim."-- Bill Russell Go up For Glory, p.126.


"The first time I guarded Wilt, I stood behind him and he was so wide that I couldn't see the rest of the game.

Then I saw him dunk a ball so hard that it hit the court and bounced straight up back through the rim again."--Bob Ferry, Tall Tales (by Terry Pluto) p. 326


"Once Wilt got upset with me and dunked the ball so hard it went through the rim with such force that it broke my toe as it hit the floor."--Johnny Kerr, Tall Tales (by Terry Pluto) p. 237


"One time, when I was with Boston and he was with the Lakers, Happy Hairston and I were about to get in a scrape.

All of a sudden, I felt an enormous vice around me. I was 6-7, 235, and Wilt had picked me up and turned me around. He said, 'We're not going to have that stuff.' I said, 'Yes sir.' -- Paul Silas

"He [Wilt] stopped me dead in my tracks with his arm, hugged me and lifted me off the floor with my feet dangling.

It scared the hell out of me. When I went to the free-throw line, my legs were still shaking. Wilt was the strongest guy and best athlete ever to play the game." -- KC Jones

[coastalmarker99]

In 1982, when he was 45 and Philadelphia 76er owner Harold Katz was hot after him, the Houston Chronicle's George White asked Elvin Hayes if Chamberlain could still play.

"Some things about Wilt, you never forgot," Hayes said. "He was such an awesome physical specimen.

To go up under Wilt Chamberlain, to be down there and look up at him when he's towering up over you waiting to dunk, was a terrifying picture.

To see him poised up there, knowing he was about to sweep down with that big jam . . . that must be the most frightening sight in sports.

The ball goes shooting through the net and you better have your body covered up because he could really hurt someone.

I was scared. Everyone was scared when he got that look in his eye, that don't-try-to-stop-this look that he got when he really wanted it. . . .

"I think Russell realized there was no way he could have stopped Wilt if he had been fully intent on making it a two-man game.
No one who ever put on a uniform could have done it.

When I played him, I kept this foremost in my mind: Above all, don't make him mad. Don't embarrass him. You wanted to keep him quiet as long as possible."Heisler, Mark (1999-10-13). "Larger Than Life". The Los Angeles Times.

[70sFan]

Shaq's style of play was much more physically taxing and it wasn't suited to score 40+ppg. Wilt used his fadeaway because it gave him almost unlimited option to take decent shot. Even he could be taken out of plays by help defense, but with Shaq style it would be even harder for him to mantain massive volume numbers.

I have no doubt in my mind that Wilt's efficiency would improve with looser officiating though, especially with lesser empashis on not traveling in the post.

[trex_8063]

I'm a little doubtful, though I don't think it's absurd to suggest he might have averaged 60 ppg once or twice if allowed the aggressive attacks that have been permisible the last ~30 years.

Bear in mind there IS a flip-side to the coin that allows Wilt to bang into/thru defenders to attack the rim in a modern context: those defenders are allowed to bang back more today than they were allowed 60 years ago. I'm not saying it's an even exchange [certainly MORE lattitude has been given over to the offensive player]; just saying it's not ONLY the offensive post player who's been given more lattitude.

Anyway....
Let's take Wilt's '62 campaign as the jump-point to speculate, as that's the season he actually DID average 50+ ppg.

That's with him playing every single minute, crazy fast pace [estimately 131.1 pace on bbref], and him taking on an absurd usage rate (that I've read some places that even Wilt was uncomfortable with), because coach Frank McGuire and GM Edward Gottlieb wanted to make a statistical spectacle of him. It was a quite intentional gimmick.
Therefore I'm assuming that we, realistically, cannot get significantly more attempts out of him than they actually already did that year.

So it becomes more a question of how much does his efficiency improve. Certainly it improves some: if he's taking fewer turnarounds, jump-hooks, and the like. Though it's not like ALL his shots were of that sort. He did get some dunks and lay-ups at the time (as shown in posted videos). We're just talking about substituting SOME of his lower % attempts with higher % attacking the rim type shots.

Let's say that on the 3,159 FGA he took that year, that he makes 1,860 [instead of the 1,597 that he actually made].......that's 58.9% from the field [fairly consistent with prime/peak Shaq]. And let's assume his FT's stay the same.

That would increase his scoring that year to 56.9 ppg......utterly gaudy, but still decidedly short of 60 ppg.
Incidently, this would also catapult the Warriors' offense to #1 in the league, by +1.2 over Oscar's Royals team; so they'd be the #1 offense and #3 defense. This still leaves them marginally behind Russell's Celtics SRS, though (yes, the Celtics defense was THAT ridiculous). Makes one wonder who would come out on top in terms of the championship, though......recall the Warriors barely lost to the Celtics anyway.


Another possibility in this alternate reality, is that teams do as they often did with prime Shaq: stock their roster with a bunch of big stiffs to bang around and absorb the foul-burden......force Wilt to earn it at the line.

'62 was his single-best FT-shooting year, though. We'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he doesn't get nerves when additional FT-pressure is put on him via a "hack-a-Wilt". Let's say he LOSES 150 total FGA, but GAINS 250 FTA because of the "hack-a-Wilt" (there'd be some 1-shot fouls from and-1's or the single-shot fouls that existed at the time); and we'll assume he still finished close to 59% on the reduced FGA load.....

This comes to 56.7 ppg (and they again go to #1 offensively).......but we're still short of 60 ppg.

Or we could say he only loses 100 FGA (while still gaining 250 FTA) [and rounding up on the made FT/FG estimates using 58.9% FG and 61.3% FTs, btw]: that comes to 57.4 ppg.......still notably short of 60 ppg.


So idk.......not an absurd suggestion. But most reasonable speculations still fall a pinch short of 60, imo.


EDIT: All of this doesn't take into consideration what 70sFan mentioned either--->attacking the rim is more energy demanding than "softer" shots.

[70sFan]

I'd add one thing - people don't realize how few inside points Shaq got from his power moves in the post. I've tracked 37 2000-01 Shaq games up to now and he averaged:

18.1 ppg on 49.7 FG% and 50.2 TS% from the post

5.3 ppg on 63.4 FG% and 59.8 TS% from power moves (drop steps, power finishes, spin moves)
5.7 ppg on 49.2 FG% and 49.5 TS% from hook shots
4.0 ppg on 39.2 FG% and 40.2 TS% from fadeaways and one handers

I didn't include off-ball dunks from overplays and fronting, but Wilt also got a lot of these without any problems. I mean, that's not even close to 10 ppg swing suggested in this thread.

[CumberlandPosey]

only possible with enormous improvement in ft shooting by the dipper imo.how in the heck could he have done more than in his absurd season.he already played every moment.then again if you let him take every shot...hmm...actually possible?? if one could do it than its him.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

1) Wilt did not have the "bully" mentality as Shaq. He did not want to be known as someone who simply physically overrawed opponents. Shaq revelled in being a physically imposing bully and didn't shy away from it.

2) Wilt wasn't as physically imposing as Shaq to overraw opponents to the same degree. Wilt probably had superior upper body strength but Shaqs core and lower mass was stronger.

Shaq entered the NBA at 300 lbs. By the time Wilt topped out at 300 lbs he was well into his 30s and declining physically. His peak he was at most 275-280 lbs.

[70sFan]

1) Wilt did not have the "bully" mentality as Shaq. He did not want to be known as someone who simply physically overrawed opponents. Shaq revelled in being a physically imposing bully and didn't shy away from it.

2) Wilt wasn't as physically imposing as Shaq to overraw opponents to the same degree. Wilt probably had superior upper body strength but Shaqs core and lower mass was stronger.

Shaq entered the NBA at 300 lbs. By the time Wilt topped out at 300 lbs he was well into his 30s and declining physically. His peak he was at most 275-280 lbs.

You know that Wilt reached 300 lbs in his 5th season and that he played around 290 lbs during his best years (1964-68), so why you keep repeating that false statement?

[FuShengTHEGreat]

1) Wilt did not have the "bully" mentality as Shaq. He did not want to be known as someone who simply physically overrawed opponents. Shaq revelled in being a physically imposing bully and didn't shy away from it.

2) Wilt wasn't as physically imposing as Shaq to overraw opponents to the same degree. Wilt probably had superior upper body strength but Shaqs core and lower mass was stronger.

Shaq entered the NBA at 300 lbs. By the time Wilt topped out at 300 lbs he was well into his 30s and declining physically. His peak he was at most 275-280 lbs.

You know that Wilt reached 300 lbs in his 5th season and that he played around 290 lbs during his best years (1964-68), so why you keep repeating that false statement?

Wilt was never simultaneously 300+ lbs and at his physical best/prime in his NBA career. The 2 did not coincide like Shaq who hit the NBA at that weight as a rookie.

Nothing false about that.

[70sFan]

1) Wilt did not have the "bully" mentality as Shaq. He did not want to be known as someone who simply physically overrawed opponents. Shaq revelled in being a physically imposing bully and didn't shy away from it.

2) Wilt wasn't as physically imposing as Shaq to overraw opponents to the same degree. Wilt probably had superior upper body strength but Shaqs core and lower mass was stronger.

Shaq entered the NBA at 300 lbs. By the time Wilt topped out at 300 lbs he was well into his 30s and declining physically. His peak he was at most 275-280 lbs.

You know that Wilt reached 300 lbs in his 5th season and that he played around 290 lbs during his best years (1964-68), so why you keep repeating that false statement?

Wilt was never simultaneously 300+ lbs and at his physical best/prime in his NBA career. The 2 did not coincide like Shaq who hit the NBA at that weight as a rookie.

Nothing false about that.

He played within 290-320 lbs range during 1963/64 season, which I would definitely describe as his physical best.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

You know that Wilt reached 300 lbs in his 5th season and that he played around 290 lbs during his best years (1964-68), so why you keep repeating that false statement?

Wilt was never simultaneously 300+ lbs and at his physical best/prime in his NBA career. The 2 did not coincide like Shaq who hit the NBA at that weight as a rookie.

Nothing false about that.

He played within 290-320 lbs range during 1963/64 season, which I would definitely describe as his physical best.

He was 275-80 in his prime As a Lakers Center he was 300+ lbs

I see no reason to believe he was ever 300 lbs or more in his physical prime like Shaq was.

I'll just agree to disagree with you.

[70sFan]

Wilt was never simultaneously 300+ lbs and at his physical best/prime in his NBA career. The 2 did not coincide like Shaq who hit the NBA at that weight as a rookie.

Nothing false about that.

He played within 290-320 lbs range during 1963/64 season, which I would definitely describe as his physical best.

He was 275-80 in his prime As a Lakers Center he was 300+ lbs

I see no reason to believe he was ever 300 lbs or more in his physical prime like Shaq was.

I'll just agree to disagree with you.

You don't disagree with me, you disagree with reports we have from that season. You disagree with the only evidences we have. There is a reason to believe that - contemporary reports.

If you don't agree with them, fine but keep in mind that you are wrong when you say "there is no reason to believe he was ever 300lbs or more in his physical prime".

Shaq was bigger than Wilt anyway, but you don't need to make Wilt look smaller than he actually was.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

He played within 290-320 lbs range during 1963/64 season, which I would definitely describe as his physical best.

He was 275-80 in his prime As a Lakers Center he was 300+ lbs

I see no reason to believe he was ever 300 lbs or more in his physical prime like Shaq was.

I'll just agree to disagree with you.

You don't disagree with me, you disagree with reports we have from that season. You disagree with the only evidences we have. There is a reason to believe that - contemporary reports.

If you don't agree with them, fine but keep in mind that you are wrong when you say "there is no reason to believe he was ever 300lbs or more in his physical prime".

Shaq was bigger than Wilt anyway, but you don't need to make Wilt look smaller than he actually was.

Pfft....and there is evidence that agrees with my sentiment as well.

https://bodysize.org/en/wilt-chamberlain/

. Wilton Norman Chamberlain (August 21, 1936 – October 12, 1999) was an American basketball player. He played for the Philadelphia/San Francisco Warriors, the Philadelphia 76ers, and the Los Angeles Lakers of the National Basketball Association (NBA); he played for the University of Kansas and also for the Harlem Globetrotters before playing in the NBA. The 7 foot 1 inch Chamberlain weighed 250 pounds as a rookie before bulking up to 275 and eventually to over 300 pounds with the Lakers. He played the center position and is widely considered one of the greatest and most dominant players in NBA history

He didn't want to be known as a Shaq type bully anyways regardless of era so this is a mute point. Like i said....I'll just agree to disagree.

[70sFan]

He was 275-80 in his prime As a Lakers Center he was 300+ lbs

I see no reason to believe he was ever 300 lbs or more in his physical prime like Shaq was.

I'll just agree to disagree with you.

You don't disagree with me, you disagree with reports we have from that season. You disagree with the only evidences we have. There is a reason to believe that - contemporary reports.

If you don't agree with them, fine but keep in mind that you are wrong when you say "there is no reason to believe he was ever 300lbs or more in his physical prime".

Shaq was bigger than Wilt anyway, but you don't need to make Wilt look smaller than he actually was.

Pfft....and there is evidence that agrees with my sentiment as well.

https://bodysize.org/en/wilt-chamberlain/

. Wilton Norman Chamberlain (August 21, 1936 – October 12, 1999) was an American basketball player. He played for the Philadelphia/San Francisco Warriors, the Philadelphia 76ers, and the Los Angeles Lakers of the National Basketball Association (NBA); he played for the University of Kansas and also for the Harlem Globetrotters before playing in the NBA. The 7 foot 1 inch Chamberlain weighed 250 pounds as a rookie before bulking up to 275 and eventually to over 300 pounds with the Lakers. He played the center position and is widely considered one of the greatest and most dominant players in NBA history

He didn't want to be known as a Shaq type bully anyways regardless of era so this is a mute point. Like i said....I'll just agree to disagree.

So you think a random sentence from bodysize.org has the same value as contemporary reports from the time when Wilt was actively playing?

1964 Wilt looks bigger than someone like Embiid or Jokic and they are both 280 lbs.

[capfan33]

Maybe if he really wanted to he could, but it almost certainly wouldn't be optimal for helping his team win. And at a certain point you would hit stamina problems, especially if you want Wilt to play any defense.

However, it could help him increase his efficiency on similar volume while still allowing him to play great defense, and that would be ideal.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

You don't disagree with me, you disagree with reports we have from that season. You disagree with the only evidences we have. There is a reason to believe that - contemporary reports.

If you don't agree with them, fine but keep in mind that you are wrong when you say "there is no reason to believe he was ever 300lbs or more in his physical prime".

Shaq was bigger than Wilt anyway, but you don't need to make Wilt look smaller than he actually was.

Pfft....and there is evidence that agrees with my sentiment as well.

https://bodysize.org/en/wilt-chamberlain/

. Wilton Norman Chamberlain (August 21, 1936 – October 12, 1999) was an American basketball player. He played for the Philadelphia/San Francisco Warriors, the Philadelphia 76ers, and the Los Angeles Lakers of the National Basketball Association (NBA); he played for the University of Kansas and also for the Harlem Globetrotters before playing in the NBA. The 7 foot 1 inch Chamberlain weighed 250 pounds as a rookie before bulking up to 275 and eventually to over 300 pounds with the Lakers. He played the center position and is widely considered one of the greatest and most dominant players in NBA history

He didn't want to be known as a Shaq type bully anyways regardless of era so this is a mute point. Like i said....I'll just agree to disagree.

So you think a random sentence from bodysize.org has the same value as contemporary reports from the time when Wilt was actively playing?

1964 Wilt looks bigger than someone like Embiid or Jokic and they are both 280 lbs.

Ummm there's other links I could post detailing Wilt's playing weight but why bother?.....I guess that'll be dismissed as a random sentence.....while you on the other hand speaketh the gospel.

Wilt did not have the core base balance of Shaq to play the power game he played and was more/to over reliant on his length. He was stronger in his upper body than Shaq but had a much thinner waist and legs than Shaq did.

Anybody that believes Wilt could've employed the dislodging power game of Shaq if he wanted to and the rules supposedly allowed him to is errant imho.

[70sFan]

Ummm there's other links I could post detailing Wilt's playing weight but why bother?.....I guess that'll be dismissed as a random sentence.....while you on the other hand speaketh the gospel.

I'm free to change my mind about that, I just don't think you bring up more convincing source than the ones I've seen. When talking about weight during the season, the best way is to always take contemporary sources.

My problem with your take isn't that you disagree with me, but more that you said it's not reasonable because you think so. Judging someone's weight by the photos is far from great way, especially when the 1960s technology used to capture sports events was significantly less refined than even in the early 1970s.

It's much more complicated than "Wilt was skinny in the 1960s and bulked up in the 1970s". Wilt's weighed peaked in the beginning of the 1963/64 season, when he came into training camp at 327 lbs and started his season around 320 lbs. He got into shape during the season and played around 295 lbs in playoffs. Since then, his weight fluctuated during the rest of the decade. There are reports saying that he slimmed down to 280 lbs in 1966/67 season. After that season he was notably bigger though. He seemed to lose some weight again in 1969, but then came back heavier in 1969/70.

This is from 1964, Wilt looked notably bigger than in 1962 when he weighed 275 lbs:

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

You can't accurately say that Wilt weighed "X" throughout his prime, but calling him 275 lbs in his physical prime is wrong, because he didn't weigh that low after 1963. It's like saying Shaq weighed 320 lbs in 2000s, even though he never weighed below 340 lbs during that time.

If you said that Wilt's weighed fluctuated within 275-300 lbs range in his prime, that's something we can agree with, but describing him as "275 lbs in 1960s, 300 lbs in 1970s" is wrong.

Wilt did not have the core base balance of Shaq to play the power game he played and was more/to over reliant on his length. He was stronger in his upper body than Shaq but had a much thinner waist and legs than Shaq did.

Anybody that believes Wilt could've employed the dislodging power game of Shaq if he wanted to and the rules supposedly allowed him to is errant imho.

I agree, Wilt had considerably smaller lower body and I don't think he would be as effective with bully ball style as Shaq. That's not the part I disagreed with.

I would be hesitant with judging someone's strength in the post based strictly on the size of lower body by the way. Artis Gilmore was arguably as powerful as Shaq in the post and he didn't have the same lower body mass.

[Mazter]

He barely cracked 50 with a huge amount of scoring attempts. He is not cassually going to add 10+ points without improving efficiency and not adding 10+ TS attempts without using a lot more energy. So no, no matter what set of rules you add to that season, Wilt won't average 60+. With 50.4 it was as good as it got.