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He's a monster scorer in the regular season while being a good passer/playmaker but he consistently struggles when teams with strong defensive personnel gameplan for him in the playoffs. Particularly in the half court. The Bucks haven't been too impressive offensively either. How do you view him as an offensive player and how does he compare to some contemporaries and past players?

I think he is like a fringe top 5 offensive player in the world currently.

Really good offensive player not great. Hes great in transition maybe best in the whole league but in the halfcourt he has a ton of holes that makes him unreliable. His PPG and APG numbers overrate his impact since hes always had shooters all around him even Brook Lopez starting shooting 3s to accomodate Giannis ball. So he does alot of drive and kicks thatll lead to PPG and APG but the offenses arent terribly effective

He had a .516ts against us, had a .49ts against Miami last year (and shut down by them in 20, shut down by Toronto......Milwaukee had a 101.7 ortg for the series against us which is horrendous. They missed Middleton badly whos their best creator and scorer in the halfcourt

teams with the right, strong mobile bigs (Marc, Siakam, Bam, Grant, Al) that can move their feet and read his moves since he doesnt have alot will always cause him fits. He can eat up slow footed bigs like Ayton, Vucevic, Drummond tho

He's elite offensive player (definitely top 10 in the league), but slightly overrated by his numbers. He could be slowed down in halfcourt if you have strong and quick bigman and his scoring repertoire isn't reliable. He became a very good passer but he could become frustrated and stop dishing out the ball. He also rarely passes inside, which limits the ceilling of his playmaking.

A lot of people keep saying that he's better offensively than Shaq because of high assist numbers, but I don't think people really understand what made Shaq so good. I would have him closer to Duncan/Hakeem tier on offense than to Shaq/Kareem.

70sFan wrote:He's elite offensive player (definitely top 10 in the league), but slightly overrated by his numbers. He could be slowed down in halfcourt if you have strong and quick bigman and his scoring repertoire isn't reliable. He became a very good passer but he could become frustrated and stop dishing out the ball. He also rarely passes inside, which limits the ceilling of his playmaking.

A lot of people keep saying that he's better offensively than Shaq because of high assist numbers, but I don't think people really understand what made Shaq so good. I would have him closer to Duncan/Hakeem tier on offense than to Shaq/Kareem.

Agreed with you... Kareem/Shaq are different tier, and Hakeem/Duncan were both better than Giannis too.

Anyway, sorry to be nitpicky... but Duncan/Hakeem tier?

Hakeem was better than Duncan on offense. When Duncan was scoring a lot, he wasn't playing at Center on defense. When he took on full responsibility of playing as a Center on defense, his scoring went down. Besides, Hakeem had more individual offensive talent too (i.e., ability to create for himself).

TBH, we are lucky that Giannis doesn't have talent/footwork like Hakeem or Duncan.

I would say he is as good as rules allow him to be. Definitely not comparable to players from different eras.

70sFan wrote:He's elite offensive player (definitely top 10 in the league), but slightly overrated by his numbers. He could be slowed down in halfcourt if you have strong and quick bigman and his scoring repertoire isn't reliable. He became a very good passer but he could become frustrated and stop dishing out the ball. He also rarely passes inside, which limits the ceilling of his playmaking.

A lot of people keep saying that he's better offensively than Shaq because of high assist numbers, but I don't think people really understand what made Shaq so good. I would have him closer to Duncan/Hakeem tier on offense than to Shaq/Kareem.

Hakeem is a tier above Duncan offensively. He is a top tier center on both ends for sure.

70sFan wrote:He's elite offensive player (definitely top 10 in the league), but slightly overrated by his numbers. He could be slowed down in halfcourt if you have strong and quick bigman and his scoring repertoire isn't reliable. He became a very good passer but he could become frustrated and stop dishing out the ball. He also rarely passes inside, which limits the ceilling of his playmaking.

A lot of people keep saying that he's better offensively than Shaq because of high assist numbers, but I don't think people really understand what made Shaq so good. I would have him closer to Duncan/Hakeem tier on offense than to Shaq/Kareem.

Is he top 10 on offense?

Jokic
Steph
Luka
Bron
Kd
Kawhi
Jimmy
Trae
Dame
Ja
Mitchell

id take all of them..........are we sure Giannis is a better offensive player than Kat? I dunno about that........Even Embiid for his own flaws isnt clearly worse IMO

LAL1947 wrote:Anyway, sorry to be nitpicky... but Duncan/Hakeem tier?

Hakeem was better than Duncan on offense. When Duncan was scoring a lot, he wasn't playing at Center on defense. When he took on full responsibility of playing as a Center on defense, his scoring went down. Besides, Hakeem had more individual offensive talent too (i.e., ability to create for himself).

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Hakeem had a better motor than Duncan, I'll give you that. He had GOAT-level motor, which allowed him to be extremely active on defense while being the main offensive player as well.

On the other hand, we have seen Duncan playing center role and scoring almost 30 ppg against Shaq and Kobe in 2002 without Robinson and he was the main Shaq defender in that series as well. So Duncan, motor was just fine. Duncan's scoring went down mostly because Manu and Parker became better and he moved the ball more.

About offense itself - well, Duncan was far better passer and playmaker than Hakeem and he was better offensive rebounder. You can pick only two versions of Hakeem - younger one who was poor man's Moses on offense (excellent rebounder, poor passer) or older one (better passing - though still not great - and shooting, but no rebounding anymore). At no point of his career, Hakeem was better rebounder and passer than Duncan (well, he was never a better passer than Duncan period).

Duncan also wins the battle in the little things - screening, off-ball movement, ball-handling, outlet passing. Another quite big thing is foul drawing ability - Duncan could put your frontcourt in serious troubles because of that, Hakeem never had such effect on that end.

Hakeem has the edge as an iso scorer. He was absurdly efficient low post scorer given his shot profile and you couldn't do anything to prevent him from taking these shots. Of course it hurt his overall efficiency, but made him more resilient in playoffs. Another slight advantage that Hakeem has is shooting. Olajuwon wasn't amazing shooter, but he was more natural shooter than Duncan and he could knock down short midranges at elite level.

You can pick Hakeem over Duncan for reasons mentioned above, but there is no reason to pretend that he's much better. Because he wasn't, unless you simply mean that he was more "creative" or more fun to watch.

GSP wrote:

70sFan wrote:He's elite offensive player (definitely top 10 in the league), but slightly overrated by his numbers. He could be slowed down in halfcourt if you have strong and quick bigman and his scoring repertoire isn't reliable. He became a very good passer but he could become frustrated and stop dishing out the ball. He also rarely passes inside, which limits the ceilling of his playmaking.

A lot of people keep saying that he's better offensively than Shaq because of high assist numbers, but I don't think people really understand what made Shaq so good. I would have him closer to Duncan/Hakeem tier on offense than to Shaq/Kareem.

Is he top 10 on offense?

Jokic
Steph
Luka
Bron
Kd
Kawhi
Jimmy
Trae
Dame
Ja
Mitchell

id take all of them..........are we sure Giannis is a better offensive player than Kat? I dunno about that........Even Embiid for his own flaws isnt clearly worse IMO

Well, I don't count Kawhi here as he hasn't played a single game this season.

I'd definitely take him over Mitchell, who became very overrated from being underrated two seasons ago. Morant is interesting, but I think they are at least in similar tier (probably prefer Giannis though).

I'm not sold on Butler. He had moments when he could be absolutely spectacular, but he's not consistent enough and teams don't gameplan against him the same way they do against Giannis.

That leaves us with 7-8 guys (depending on Ja) and I would actually consider KAT to be there as well. I don't think Embiid should be there though, I have seen way to many problematic things with his offense these playoffs to pick him over Giannis. Can't imagine him against this Celtcis defense, he would struggle so much more than Giannis to me.

Gets docked for taking his team beyond where they should get to. Hakeem is about it for bigs succeeding with similar **** perimeter play. He's somehow expected to play both ends of the pick and roll at once on offense. Also elbows too pointy.

GSP wrote:

70sFan wrote:He's elite offensive player (definitely top 10 in the league), but slightly overrated by his numbers. He could be slowed down in halfcourt if you have strong and quick bigman and his scoring repertoire isn't reliable. He became a very good passer but he could become frustrated and stop dishing out the ball. He also rarely passes inside, which limits the ceilling of his playmaking.

A lot of people keep saying that he's better offensively than Shaq because of high assist numbers, but I don't think people really understand what made Shaq so good. I would have him closer to Duncan/Hakeem tier on offense than to Shaq/Kareem.

Is he top 10 on offense?

Jokic
Steph
Luka
Bron
Kd
Kawhi
Jimmy
Trae
Dame
Ja
Mitchell

id take all of them..........are we sure Giannis is a better offensive player than Kat? I dunno about that........Even Embiid for his own flaws isnt clearly worse IMO

Can you expand on the case for Mitchell over Giannis offensively? Not sure I see it

jalengreen wrote:

GSP wrote:

70sFan wrote:He's elite offensive player (definitely top 10 in the league), but slightly overrated by his numbers. He could be slowed down in halfcourt if you have strong and quick bigman and his scoring repertoire isn't reliable. He became a very good passer but he could become frustrated and stop dishing out the ball. He also rarely passes inside, which limits the ceilling of his playmaking.

A lot of people keep saying that he's better offensively than Shaq because of high assist numbers, but I don't think people really understand what made Shaq so good. I would have him closer to Duncan/Hakeem tier on offense than to Shaq/Kareem.

Is he top 10 on offense?

Jokic
Steph
Luka
Bron
Kd
Kawhi
Jimmy
Trae
Dame
Ja
Mitchell

id take all of them..........are we sure Giannis is a better offensive player than Kat? I dunno about that........Even Embiid for his own flaws isnt clearly worse IMO

Can you expand on the case for Mitchell over Giannis offensively? Not sure I see it

The whole back half of that list is embarrassing, not sure Mitchell is the line.

I didn't realize that Dame is there, I also don't think I'd take him over Giannis at this point.

AussieBuck wrote:Gets docked for taking his team beyond where they should get to. Hakeem is about it for bigs succeeding with similar **** perimeter play. He's somehow expected to play both ends of the pick and roll at once on offense. Also elbows too pointy.

Past prime Drexler is the only real perimeter talent Hakeem got in his prime. And his stock was so low Portland traded their decade long star for Otis Thorpe and Tracy Murray.........

As mid as Bledsoe was he wouldve been Hakeems best guard pre Drexler. For his holes on offense he was still an elite defensive guard, great slasher and underrated playmaker. He just couldnt hit spot up 3s with which Giannis one dimensional playmaking game made much less talented guards like George Hill a better fit next to him

And Giannis still got to play with Brogdon, Jrue and Khris - Khris a better halfcourt player than even Drexler............Its not all that close ITO perimeter talent played with. No ones buying a washed up Sleepy Floyd, erratic chucking Mad Max or Kenny the Jet Smith as good as those guys

jalengreen wrote:

GSP wrote:

70sFan wrote:He's elite offensive player (definitely top 10 in the league), but slightly overrated by his numbers. He could be slowed down in halfcourt if you have strong and quick bigman and his scoring repertoire isn't reliable. He became a very good passer but he could become frustrated and stop dishing out the ball. He also rarely passes inside, which limits the ceilling of his playmaking.

A lot of people keep saying that he's better offensively than Shaq because of high assist numbers, but I don't think people really understand what made Shaq so good. I would have him closer to Duncan/Hakeem tier on offense than to Shaq/Kareem.

Is he top 10 on offense?

Jokic
Steph
Luka
Bron
Kd
Kawhi
Jimmy
Trae
Dame
Ja
Mitchell

id take all of them..........are we sure Giannis is a better offensive player than Kat? I dunno about that........Even Embiid for his own flaws isnt clearly worse IMO

Can you expand on the case for Mitchell over Giannis offensively? Not sure I see it

One of the best shooters and off dribble scorers in the league. Can get tunnel vision but his driving and bullet passes is a massive part of Utahs offense too. He had a mid series against Dallas but we shouldnt forget how incredible he was in the last 2 playoffs. Numbers speak for themselves. He was outplaying Kawhi and Pg last year and the year before was the best offensive player in a series with Jokic. Mitchell is a horrendous defender but hes a great great offensive talent

70sFan wrote:I didn't realize that Dame is there, I also don't think I'd take him over Giannis at this point.

Fair to question Dame going forward but last we saw him healthy in 21 im def taking that Dame over Giannis on offense

GSP wrote:

AussieBuck wrote:Gets docked for taking his team beyond where they should get to. Hakeem is about it for bigs succeeding with similar **** perimeter play. He's somehow expected to play both ends of the pick and roll at once on offense. Also elbows too pointy.

Past prime Drexler is the only real perimeter talent Hakeem got in his prime. And his stock was so low Portland traded their decade long star for Otis Thorpe and Tracy Murray.........

As mid as Bledsoe was he wouldve been Hakeems best guard pre Drexler. For his holes on offense he was still an elite defensive guard, great slasher and underrated playmaker. He just couldnt hit spot up 3s with which Giannis one dimensional playmaking game made much less talented guards like George Hill a better fit next to him

And Giannis still got to play with Brogdon, Jrue and Khris - Khris a better halfcourt player than even Drexler............Its not all that close ITO perimeter talent played with. No ones buying a washed up Sleepy Floyd, erratic chucking Mad Max or Kenny the Jet Smith as good as those guys

I mean I concede Hakeem and you bought him anyway. In any case Bledsoe was a playoffs basketcase on offense to the point washed George hill was massively better, Brogdon wasn't healthy in the playoffs at any point and Khris isn't a guard at all. Your posts on Giannis are consistently absurd. I would have thought getting a win might have moderated you but here we are. Also not mentioning Cassell shows you up.

AussieBuck wrote:Gets docked for taking his team beyond where they should get to. Hakeem is about it for bigs succeeding with similar **** perimeter play. He's somehow expected to play both ends of the pick and roll at once on offense. Also elbows too pointy.

I don't think Giannis played with worse perimeter talent than 1999-04 Duncan. I don't think it's even close to be honest. Same applies to 1960-64 Wilt or 1975-79 Kareem.

GSP wrote:

70sFan wrote:I didn't realize that Dame is there, I also don't think I'd take him over Giannis at this point.

Fair to question Dame going forward but last we saw him healthy in 21 im def taking that Dame over Giannis on offense

It's fair to question Dame because his offense was completely unsustainable in the playoffs. I know that last year he had a great series in the first round, but it was only one round against very faborable matchup. Lillard isn't a young guy establishing his position, he has a long history of underperformances in postseason.

I know that Lillard is like more on-ball version of Steph in theory, but he's not even close to that in reality. His shooting is streaky and he can't finish inside the paint. He always struggle against good defenses because of that. No, I won't pick him over Giannis.