RealGM

i am gonna extend it to more names than usual for these kind of questions

how many times do you think one of these players was outplayed in a series?

russel
wilt
kareem
bird
magic
jordan
hakeem
shaq
duncan
kobe
lebron
curry

all these guys are seen as the best or second best player of their eras, how often did another player impact the game more than them in a playoff series?

Russell:
- 1958 by Pettit (injury),
- 1965 by Wilt,
- 1967 by Wilt.

Wilt:
- 1960 by Russell (injury),
- 1966 by Russell,
- 1968 by Russell (injury),
- 1972 by Kareem,
- 1973 by Frazier.

Kareem:
- 1973 by Thurmond,
- 1981 by Moses,
- 1983 by Moses
- 1984 by Bird
- a lot after 1985.

Bird:
- 1980 by Julius,
- 1982 by Julius,
- 1983 by Moncrief,
- 1985 by Kareem and Magic,
- 1987 by Magic,
- 1990 by Ewing.

Magic:
- 1981 by Moses,
- 1983 by Moses,
- 1984 by Bird,
- 1986 by Hakeem,
- 1991 by Jordan.

Jordan:
- 1987 by Bird,
- 1995 by Shaq.

Hakeem:
- 1985 by Dantley,
- 1986 by Bird,
- 1990 by Magic,
- 1996 by Kemp.

Shaq:
- 1994 by Miller,
- 1996 by Jordan,
- 1997 by Malone,
- 1999 by Duncan,
- 2002 by Duncan,
- 2003 by Duncan,
- a lot after 2004.

Duncan:
- 2001 by Kobe,
- 2004 by Shaq,
- 2008 by Kobe,
- quite a few after 2008.

Kobe:
- a lot before 2000,
- 2002 by Duncan,
- 2003 by Duncan,
- 2006 by Nash,
- 2011 by Dirk,
- 2012 by KD.

LeBron:
- 2007 by Duncan,
- 2008 by Garnett,
- 2011 by Dirk.

Curry:
- 2013 by Parker,
- 2015 by James,
- 2016 by James.

70sFan wrote:Russell:
- 1958 by Pettit (injury),
- 1965 by Wilt,
- 1967 by Wilt.

Wilt:
- 1960 by Russell (injury),
- 1966 by Russell,
- 1968 by Russell (injury),
- 1972 by Kareem,
- 1973 by Frazier.

Kareem:
- 1973 by Thurmond,
- 1981 by Moses,
- 1983 by Moses
- 1984 by Bird
- a lot after 1985.

Bird:
- 1980 by Julius,
- 1982 by Julius,
- 1983 by Moncrief,
- 1985 by Kareem and Magic,
- 1987 by Magic,
- 1990 by Ewing.

Magic:
- 1981 by Moses,
- 1983 by Moses,
- 1984 by Bird,
- 1986 by Hakeem,
- 1991 by Jordan.

Jordan:
- 1987 by Bird,
- 1995 by Shaq.

Hakeem:
- 1985 by Dantley,
- 1986 by Bird,
- 1990 by Magic,
- 1996 by Kemp.

Shaq:
- 1994 by Miller,
- 1996 by Jordan,
- 1997 by Malone,
- 1999 by Duncan,
- 2002 by Duncan,
- 2003 by Duncan,
- a lot after 2004.

Duncan:
- 2001 by Kobe,
- 2004 by Shaq,
- 2008 by Kobe,
- quite a few after 2008.

Kobe:
- a lot before 2000,
- 2002 by Duncan,
- 2003 by Duncan,
- 2006 by Nash,
- 2011 by Dirk,
- 2012 by KD.

LeBron:
- 2007 by Duncan,
- 2008 by Garnett,
- 2011 by Dirk.

Curry:
- 2013 by Parker,
- 2015 by James,
- 2016 by James.

i should have specified "in their primes"

great post

70sFan wrote:Russell:
- 1958 by Pettit (injury),
- 1965 by Wilt,
- 1967 by Wilt.

Wilt:
- 1960 by Russell (injury),
- 1966 by Russell,
- 1968 by Russell (injury),
- 1972 by Kareem,
- 1973 by Frazier.

Kareem:
- 1973 by Thurmond,
- 1981 by Moses,
- 1983 by Moses
- 1984 by Bird
- a lot after 1985.

Bird:
- 1980 by Julius,
- 1982 by Julius,
- 1983 by Moncrief,
- 1985 by Kareem and Magic,
- 1987 by Magic,
- 1990 by Ewing.

Magic:
- 1981 by Moses,
- 1983 by Moses,
- 1984 by Bird,
- 1986 by Hakeem,
- 1991 by Jordan.

Jordan:
- 1987 by Bird,
- 1995 by Shaq.

Hakeem:
- 1985 by Dantley,
- 1986 by Bird,
- 1990 by Magic,
- 1996 by Kemp.

Shaq:
- 1994 by Miller,
- 1996 by Jordan,
- 1997 by Malone,
- 1999 by Duncan,
- 2002 by Duncan,
- 2003 by Duncan,
- a lot after 2004.

Duncan:
- 2001 by Kobe,
- 2004 by Shaq,
- 2008 by Kobe,
- quite a few after 2008.

Kobe:
- a lot before 2000,
- 2002 by Duncan,
- 2003 by Duncan,
- 2006 by Nash,
- 2011 by Dirk,
- 2012 by KD.

LeBron:
- 2007 by Duncan,
- 2008 by Garnett,
- 2011 by Dirk.

Curry:
- 2013 by Parker,
- 2015 by James,
- 2016 by James.

Steph was only outplayed 3 times? Thats wayyyy off

Kyrie also outplayed him in 16

17 - Bron
18 - Bron
19 - Harden
19 - Kawhi
22 - Jokic (Ja as well before injury)

70sFan wrote:.

GSP wrote:
Steph was only outplayed 3 times? Thats wayyyy off

Kyrie also outplayed him in 16

17 - Bron
18 - Bron
19 - Harden
19 - Kawhi
22 - Jokic (Ja as well before injury)

I was going to bring up LeBron in '17 and '18; didn't consider Kyrie, but yeah, you can certainly make that argument in '16 (Steph did not have a good series).

I think there's winner's bias that insidiously creeps in there. I'm not making a malicious accusation, 70sFan; I was actually thinking about this as I watched Game 5 GS/Dallas finish up, and they were awarding the newly-made Magic Johnson award [for MVP of WCF].....

Reggie Miller, Stan Van Gundy, and Kevin Harlan were discussing who it should be. And they mentioned Steph, they mentioned Draymond, they mentioned Klay, they mentioned Andrew Wiggins........they did NOT mention Luka Doncic.

In their minds [apparently], losing the series automatically excludes you from consideration as best player in said series.

And we see this a lot here, too, where people will claim [falsely] that Player A dominated Player B in H2H [because Player A's team won the series 4-0 or 4-1, or whatever]......but when you look more closely you see Player A, individually, did no such thing.

It's like saying Larry Bird "dominated" Michael Jordan in the '86 playoffs [because the Celtics swept the Bulls].

GSP wrote:

70sFan wrote:Russell:
- 1958 by Pettit (injury),
- 1965 by Wilt,
- 1967 by Wilt.

Wilt:
- 1960 by Russell (injury),
- 1966 by Russell,
- 1968 by Russell (injury),
- 1972 by Kareem,
- 1973 by Frazier.

Kareem:
- 1973 by Thurmond,
- 1981 by Moses,
- 1983 by Moses
- 1984 by Bird
- a lot after 1985.

Bird:
- 1980 by Julius,
- 1982 by Julius,
- 1983 by Moncrief,
- 1985 by Kareem and Magic,
- 1987 by Magic,
- 1990 by Ewing.

Magic:
- 1981 by Moses,
- 1983 by Moses,
- 1984 by Bird,
- 1986 by Hakeem,
- 1991 by Jordan.

Jordan:
- 1987 by Bird,
- 1995 by Shaq.

Hakeem:
- 1985 by Dantley,
- 1986 by Bird,
- 1990 by Magic,
- 1996 by Kemp.

Shaq:
- 1994 by Miller,
- 1996 by Jordan,
- 1997 by Malone,
- 1999 by Duncan,
- 2002 by Duncan,
- 2003 by Duncan,
- a lot after 2004.

Duncan:
- 2001 by Kobe,
- 2004 by Shaq,
- 2008 by Kobe,
- quite a few after 2008.

Kobe:
- a lot before 2000,
- 2002 by Duncan,
- 2003 by Duncan,
- 2006 by Nash,
- 2011 by Dirk,
- 2012 by KD.

LeBron:
- 2007 by Duncan,
- 2008 by Garnett,
- 2011 by Dirk.

Curry:
- 2013 by Parker,
- 2015 by James,
- 2016 by James.

Steph was only outplayed 3 times? Thats wayyyy off

Kyrie also outplayed him in 16

17 - Bron
18 - Bron
19 - Harden
19 - Kawhi
22 - Jokic (Ja as well before injury)

I included one player per round. I agree Kyrie outplayed him.

The rest you mentioned aren't crystal clear. I'd take James in both finals, but the truth is that these series weren't competitive so it's hard to make a clear conclusion. Good point on Harden in 2019, I don't think Kawhi outplayed Curry h2h though. At the same time, I forgot about 2018 WCF - Paul outplayed him until injury in my opinion.

I didn't included 2022, I want to wait for the end of the playoffs.

70sFan wrote:Duncan:
- 2001 by Kobe,
- 2004 by Shaq,
- 2008 by Kobe,
- quite a few after 2008.

Kobe:
- a lot before 2000,
- 2002 by Duncan,
- 2003 by Duncan,
- 2006 by Nash,
- 2011 by Dirk,
- 2012 by KD.

This is a typical re-writing of history, which is how you are able to make "cases" for Duncan in the Top-5. Making Kobe's list bigger... and then making Duncan's list look a lot smaller than it should be.

1) Kobe got "outplayed a lot before 2000"? By whom??

1996-98: He came into the league as an 18 year old and was used as a role player in his first 2 years.

1998-99: He was a 20 year old, but I don't feel Kobe got outplayed by anyone he was matching up against (Houston, Spurs). So do you mean by Duncan? If yes, I'll give you that even though the 1st options on both teams were Duncan and Shaq.

1999-00: We were champions and Kobe wasn't outplayed by anyone for a series. He wrecked the West.

2) 2001-02: How you gonna say Duncan outplayed Kobe here? Duncan did his thing against a smaller Robert Horry, who had trouble guarding him. Meanwhile, the Spurs employed dirty Bruce Bowen purely to stop Kobe, and yet Kobe did his thing too.

3) 2002-03: Kobe didn't get outplayed by Duncan. WTH is this? We got screwed by Shaq not performing to his usual levels and our depth being cack (Derek Fisher was our 3rd most used player, Robert Horry was our 4th most used player, etc). Kobe ended that series against the Spurs averaging 32.3 PPG. Do you even know what it takes to average 32.3 PPG against a defensive oriented team like the Spurs who are employing a Bruce Bowen for the sole purpose of stopping Kobe, in the hand-check era???

Btw, Duncan averaged 28.0 PPG, so he played great too... but he was bailed out on a few occasions by Spurs quality depth (Bowen - Kobe stopper, Ginobili, Parker, Stephen Jackson, D-Rob and Malik Rose who took turns guarding Shaq). I still remember that pivotal game 2, when Duncan only scored 12 PTs... yet the Spurs won it because of the defense the whole team played... and because Bowen had 27 PTs, Ginobili had 17 PTs, Parker had 16 PTs, Claxton had 15 PTs and Jackson had 10 PTs. If the Spurs depth had not stepped up and played so great in that game, Lakers would have won it and the next 2 games in LA as well. Spurs/Duncan would not have come back from 3-1 down, they were not built like that.

4) 2004-05: Duncan was outplayed by young Amar'e... but was rescued by Spurs depth again.

5) 2006-07: Duncan was outplayed by Nash and Amar'e... but was rescued by Horry's cheating.

Why don't you list out more times when Duncan was outplayed post-2008? Kobe was 33YO in 2011-12... and you listed playoffs until 2011-12 for him. Duncan was 33YO in 2009-10. So let's go until 2009-10 for him too.

6) 2008-09: Duncan and Parker were outplayed by Dirk and Josh Howard, when they didn't have Ginobili.

7) 2009-10: Duncan was outplayed by Nash and Amar'e again.

LAL1947 wrote:

70sFan wrote:Duncan:
- 2001 by Kobe,
- 2004 by Shaq,
- 2008 by Kobe,
- quite a few after 2008.

Kobe:
- a lot before 2000,
- 2002 by Duncan,
- 2003 by Duncan,
- 2006 by Nash,
- 2011 by Dirk,
- 2012 by KD.

...

Actually **both** lists would be much bigger. He missed both 03 and 08 KG for Kobe and a bunch of guys in the mid 00s for Timmeh like Stat, Nash, etc.

LAL1947 wrote:This is a typical re-writing of history, which is how you are able to make "cases" for Duncan in the Top-5. Making Kobe's list bigger... and then making Duncan's list look a lot smaller than it should be.

You can't be serious...

1) Kobe got "outplayed a lot before 2000"? By whom??

1996-98: He came into the league as an 18 year old and was used as a role player in his first 2 years.

Yeah and that's my point. He got outplayed by most starters in that time. I didn't feel like I should mention them, as it's pointless.

1998-99: He was a 20 year old, but I don't feel Kobe got outplayed by anyone he was matching up against (Houston, Spurs). So do you mean by Duncan? If yes, I'll give you that even though the 1st options on both teams were Duncan and Shaq.

Yes, Duncan outplayed Kobe in 1999.

1999-00: We were champions and Kobe wasn't outplayed by anyone for a series. He wrecked the West.

He got outplayed by Reggie Miller. I didn't want to include that because he wasn't his prime yet.

2) 2001-02: How you gonna say Duncan outplayed Kobe here? Duncan did his thing against a smaller Robert Horry, who had trouble guarding him. Meanwhile, the Spurs employed dirty Bruce Bowen purely to stop Kobe, and yet Kobe did his thing too.

Duncan was guarded by entire Lakers team, not by Horry. You should stop thinking about defense in such a crude way. Duncan also had to defend Shaq on the other end of the floor.

3) 2002-03: Kobe didn't get outplayed by Duncan. WTH is this? We got screwed by Shaq not performing to his usual levels and our depth being cack (Derek Fisher was our 3rd most used player, Robert Horry was our 4th most used player, etc). Kobe ended that series against the Spurs averaging 32.3 PPG. Do you even know what it takes to average 32.3 PPG against a defensive oriented team like the Spurs who are employing a Bruce Bowen for the sole purpose of stopping Kobe, in the hand-check era???

Btw, Duncan averaged 28.0 PPG, so he played great too... but he was bailed out on a few occasions by Spurs quality depth (Bowen - Kobe stopper, Ginobili, Parker, Stephen Jackson, D-Rob and Malik Rose who took turns guarding Shaq). I still remember that pivotal game 2, when Duncan only scored 12 PTs... yet the Spurs won it because of the defense the whole team played... and because Bowen had 27 PTs, Ginobili had 17 PTs, Parker had 16 PTs, Claxton had 15 PTs and Jackson had 10 PTs. If the Spurs depth had not stepped up and played so great in that game, Lakers would have won it and the next 2 games in LA as well. Spurs/Duncan would not have come back from 3-1 down, they were not built like that.

Yeah, 2003 isn't arguable. Sorry but that's the fact.

4) 2004-05: Duncan was outplayed by young Amar'e... but was rescued by Spurs depth again.

What? It just proves you didn't watch this series.

5) 2006-07: Duncan was outplayed by Nash and Amar'e... but was rescued by Horry's cheating.

Again, you don't look at defense at all...

Why don't you list out more times when Duncan was outplayed post-2008? Kobe was 33YO in 2011-12... and you listed playoffs until 2011-12 for him. Duncan was 33YO in 2009-10. So let's go until 2009-10 for him too.

6) 2008-09: Duncan and Parker were outplayed by Dirk and Josh Howard, when they didn't have Ginobili.

7) 2009-10: Duncan was outplayed by Nash and Amar'e again.

Yeah, Duncan was outplayed by Dirk in 2009 and Nash in 2010. He was also outplayed by Randolph in 2011, Durant in 2012, James in 2014 and a lot of players in 2016. I didn't include these because Duncan was past his prime. Just like I didn't include pre-2001 for Kobe.

You have obsession, you can't read a post about Kobe or Duncan without trying to find agenda.

Jaivl wrote:

LAL1947 wrote:

70sFan wrote:Duncan:
- 2001 by Kobe,
- 2004 by Shaq,
- 2008 by Kobe,
- quite a few after 2008.

Kobe:
- a lot before 2000,
- 2002 by Duncan,
- 2003 by Duncan,
- 2006 by Nash,
- 2011 by Dirk,
- 2012 by KD.

...

Actually **both** lists would be much bigger. He missed both 03 and 08 KG for Kobe and a bunch of guys in the mid 00s for Timmeh like Stat, Nash, etc.

Do you think Amare ever outplayed Duncan? I disagree.

70sFan wrote:

Jaivl wrote:

LAL1947 wrote:...

Actually **both** lists would be much bigger. He missed both 03 and 08 KG for Kobe and a bunch of guys in the mid 00s for Timmeh like Stat, Nash, etc.

Do you think Amare ever outplayed Duncan? I disagree.

Dirk did in 2006 against Duncan too.

ardee wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Jaivl wrote:Actually **both** lists would be much bigger. He missed both 03 and 08 KG for Kobe and a bunch of guys in the mid 00s for Timmeh like Stat, Nash, etc.

Do you think Amare ever outplayed Duncan? I disagree.

Dirk did in 2006 against Duncan too.

Because Dallas won series? How can you say that Dirk outplayed Duncan clearly in 2006?

If that's the floor, I would mention 10 series per player...

70sFan wrote:

1996-98: He came into the league as an 18 year old and was used as a role player in his first 2 years.

Yeah and that's my point. He got outplayed by most starters in that time. I didn't feel like I should mention them, as it's pointless.

Well, I'm not sure why this even counts since Kobe wasn't a starter and was a teenager. If Duncan had come into the league at 18 instead of spending 4 years in college, he'd have been given a baptism of fire by other bigs.

70sFan wrote:Yes, Duncan outplayed Kobe in 1999.

Ok, I'll give that you... even though the 1st options on both teams were Duncan and Shaq.

70sFan wrote:He got outplayed by Reggie Miller. I didn't want to include that because he wasn't his prime yet.

Don't forget what Jalen Rose did in Game 2 though... he sprained Kobe's ankle on purpose. Those kind of sprains aren't easy to play on, if you've ever had that happen to you.



And Kobes still had the last laugh in another game when Shaq fouled out in OT.

70sFan wrote:

2) 2001-02: How you gonna say Duncan outplayed Kobe here? Duncan did his thing against a smaller Robert Horry, who had trouble guarding him. Meanwhile, the Spurs employed dirty Bruce Bowen purely to stop Kobe, and yet Kobe did his thing too.

Duncan was guarded by entire Lakers team, not by Horry. You should stop thinking about defense in such a crude way. Duncan also had to defend Shaq on the other end of the floor.

Duncan wasn't guarded by the whole Lakers team.

Point is, Kobe didn't get outplayed. They both played well.

70sFan wrote:

3) 2002-03: Kobe didn't get outplayed by Duncan. WTH is this? We got screwed by Shaq not performing to his usual levels and our depth being cack (Derek Fisher was our 3rd most used player, Robert Horry was our 4th most used player, etc). Kobe ended that series against the Spurs averaging 32.3 PPG. Do you even know what it takes to average 32.3 PPG against a defensive oriented team like the Spurs who are employing a Bruce Bowen for the sole purpose of stopping Kobe, in the hand-check era???

Btw, Duncan averaged 28.0 PPG, so he played great too... but he was bailed out on a few occasions by Spurs quality depth (Bowen - Kobe stopper, Ginobili, Parker, Stephen Jackson, D-Rob and Malik Rose who took turns guarding Shaq). I still remember that pivotal game 2, when Duncan only scored 12 PTs... yet the Spurs won it because of the defense the whole team played... and because Bowen had 27 PTs, Ginobili had 17 PTs, Parker had 16 PTs, Claxton had 15 PTs and Jackson had 10 PTs. If the Spurs depth had not stepped up and played so great in that game, Lakers would have won it and the next 2 games in LA as well. Spurs/Duncan would not have come back from 3-1 down, they were not built like that.

Yeah, 2003 isn't arguable. Sorry but that's the fact.

Nope, 2002-03 isn't an example of Duncan "outplaying" Kobe. Sorry, but that's fact. The man averaged 32.3 PPG against your team. 34.8 PPG if you don't include the last game. We were beat by the better team.

70sFan wrote:

4) 2004-05: Duncan was outplayed by young Amar'e... but was rescued by Spurs depth again.

What? It just proves you didn't watch this series.

In both Suns-Spurs series we are talking about here... didn't they play as the Centers, head-to-head? I could be mistaken but I remember Amar'e was usually better against Duncan than vice versa.

70sFan wrote:

5) 2006-07: Duncan was outplayed by Nash and Amar'e... but was rescued by Horry's cheating.

Again, you don't look at defense at all...

See above point. Also, Suns would've won if Spurs didn't take out Nash and get Amar'e suspended.

70sFan wrote:Yeah, Duncan was outplayed by Dirk in 2009 and Nash in 2010. He was also outplayed by Randolph in 2011, Durant in 2012, James in 2014 and a lot of players in 2016. I didn't include these because Duncan was past his prime. Just like I didn't include pre-2001 for Kobe.

Just pointing out that in the small period of 4 years between 1997-2000, two of which Kobe was a role player and a teen, you felt that he was "outplayed a lot"... yet from 2008 to the end of his career, you felt that Duncan was only outplayed "quite a few times".

70sFan wrote:You have obsession, you can't read a post about Kobe or Duncan without trying to find agenda.

Well, you are giving me good reasons to find agendas everywhere.

I mean, you just said that Duncan "outplayed" Kobe in 2002-03... despite Kobe averaging 32.3 PPG for that series, when hand-checking was allowed... against a defensive Spurs team who were using Bruce Bowen and Stephen Jackson to guard him, then bringing Manu off the bench too. Do you know how funny that is?

Kobe: 37, 27, 39, 35, 36, 20.
Duncan: 28, 12, 28, 36, 27, 37.

The only time Kobe was "outplayed" in that series was in the last game, when the series was over. He, Shaq and Phil all knew that our depth was done and couldn't help them beat the Spurs by then... something that Phil and the FO should have known about our depth before the season started TBH. If you remove that last game, Kobe actually averaged 34.8 PPG against your Spurs. Isn't that great?

So find another word because "outplayed" sure ain't it.

Yeah, I forgot that you can't be outplayed when you score more points. Whatever...

70sFan wrote:

Jaivl wrote:

LAL1947 wrote:...

Actually **both** lists would be much bigger. He missed both 03 and 08 KG for Kobe and a bunch of guys in the mid 00s for Timmeh like Stat, Nash, etc.

Do you think Amare ever outplayed Duncan? I disagree.

Ehhh, I'd lean towards no. It was just me naming some guys that popped into my head.

I thought if there was a time finishing + nothing else beat elite two-way play, it was certainly Stat's 2005 series shooting dumb% from everywhere on dumb volume.

Then I remembered San Antonio couldn't miss at the rim either when he was on the court (like, it was a +14% differential with/without Amare, or some similarly huge number)

I don't think LeBron got "outplayed" in 2007 or especially 2008 when you factor in the context. He was punching way above his weight with garbage supporting casts. The 2011 Finals is perhaps the only time he wasn't the best player on the court, or at least 1A/1B, in his prime - which is insane considering how long his prime was and all the playoff series he's played in, usually against far superior teams.

Duncan's real clunker in 2008 wasn't even the Lakers series, it was the Hornets series. That was probably the worst playoff series of his career except for 2016 against the Thunder (when he was 40 years old, hard to hold that against him). Combination of him having the flu during the first two games in the series + Tyson Chandler doing an incredible job of containing him defensively. It's swept under the rug because the Spurs still won that series anyway thanks to a vintage CP3 meltdown.

Jaivl wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Jaivl wrote:Actually **both** lists would be much bigger. He missed both 03 and 08 KG for Kobe and a bunch of guys in the mid 00s for Timmeh like Stat, Nash, etc.

Do you think Amare ever outplayed Duncan? I disagree.

Ehhh, I'd lean towards no. It was just me naming some guys that popped into my head.

I thought if there was a time finishing + nothing else beat elite two-way play, it was certainly Stat's 2005 series shooting dumb% from everywhere on dumb volume.

Then I remembered San Antonio couldn't miss at the rim either when he was on the court (like, it was a +14% differential with/without Amare, or some similarly huge number)

Yeah, Stoudemire finished absurdly well in that series and yet despite his massive numbers, you can argue that he was a net negative still. Suns defense was just so bad with him on the floor...

I'm not going to pretend that there is no case for Amare over Duncan in that series, but it's definitely not clear cut.

LAL1947 wrote:I mean, you just said that Duncan "outplayed" Kobe in 2002-03... despite Kobe averaging 32.3 PPG for that series, when hand-checking was allowed...

...while chucking way more shots than anyone else on the court, on a far higher usage rate than anyone else on the court, at an average 53% TS%. Let's be real now, that Spurs team was a one-man team with a D-League supporting cast. The Lakers would have cakewalked through that series if Kobe hadn't been too much of a selfish egomaniac to pass the ball to Shaq.

MartinToVaught wrote:I don't think LeBron got "outplayed" in 2007 or especially 2008 when you factor in the context. He was punching way above his weight with garbage supporting casts.

I don't like the idea that you can't be outplayed if you have worse team. Nobody expected Cavs to win the title in 2007, even 2009 or 2018 James wouldn't win that series but it doesn't mean we shouldn't criticize James underperformance. There is a massive difference between James play in 2007 and 2018 finals, despite having basically identical team situation.

Duncan's real clunker in 2008 wasn't even the Lakers series, it was the Hornets series. That was probably the worst playoff series of his career except for 2016 against the Thunder (when he was 40 years old, hard to hold that against him). Combination of him having the flu during the first two games in the series + Tyson Chandler doing an incredible job of containing him defensively. It's swept under the rug because the Spurs still won that series anyway thanks to a vintage CP3 meltdown.

Good point, I forgot about 2008 series vs Hornets. He was clearly outplayed by Paul then.

MartinToVaught wrote:

LAL1947 wrote:I mean, you just said that Duncan "outplayed" Kobe in 2002-03... despite Kobe averaging 32.3 PPG for that series, when hand-checking was allowed...

...while chucking way more shots than anyone else on the court, on a far higher usage rate than anyone else on the court, at an average 53% TS%. Let's be real now, that Spurs team was a one-man team with a D-League supporting cast. The Lakers would have cakewalked through that series if Kobe hadn't been too much of a selfish egomaniac to pass the ball to Shaq.

How about you be real instead? If anyone had the D-league supporting cast in 2002-03, it was Kobe and Shaq. Horry left the Lakers a year later and went from being our 3rd-4th best and most used player in 2002-03 to 6th-8th on the Spurs... which is where he should have been in the pecking order on a normal team. Derek Fisher left the Lakers a year after Horry and became back-up to the Spurs back-up, Speedy Claxton. Guys like Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili had a good amount of what we now refer to as "gravity" even in their first years in the league, they could create things and be regular scoring threats... while our depth guys had no "gravity" or creation ability, and we had no real difference makers off the bench either (unless you count Slava Medvedenko, lol). Then the Spurs had a strong defensive cast in Bowen, Jackson, Robinson, Malik Rose. Duncan was great in that series and so was Kobe. It's okay to admit that Spurs were the better team and that the better team won.