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2 way wings vs 3 and D
Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 5:15 am
by Crazy-Canuck
Im seing posts recently where this definition is mixed.
Just recently, there was a klay vs battier as to who was a better 3 and D player. Personally, i dont see klay as a 3 and D. To me a 3 and D is a pure spot up and defense guy like a DFS and Bullock while a 2 way is a guy that can do more on offense (including spot up) like a wiggins or klay.
Is there a difference?
Re: 2 way wings vs 3 and D
Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 5:47 am
by Ryoga Hibiki
I think the differentiatior is if the guy can create an advantage om offense and if he's used by his team consistently that way.
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Re: 2 way wings vs 3 and D
Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 5:47 am
by rate_
Klay gets assisted on almost all his FGs. He's primarily 3nD. Jimmy Butler/Kawhi Leonard are 2 way wings
Re: 2 way wings vs 3 and D
Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 10:29 am
by Ryoga Hibiki
rate_ wrote:Klay gets assisted on almost all his FGs. He's primarily 3nD. Jimmy Butler/Kawhi Leonard are 2 way wings
the fact they are "assisted" is irrelevant.
what counts is determine if he's creating an advantage with his movement or if he's just a play finisher of an advantage created by someone else.
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Re: 2 way wings vs 3 and D
Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 10:39 am
by Dutchball97
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:rate_ wrote:Klay gets assisted on almost all his FGs. He's primarily 3nD. Jimmy Butler/Kawhi Leonard are 2 way wings
the fact they are "assisted" is irrelevant.
what counts is determine if he's creating an advantage with his movement or if he's just a play finisher of advantage created by someone else.
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Fully disagree with you on this. Every single 3&D player tries to get open with movement. Klay isn't creating many looks for himself or others so he's 3&D and not a typical 2-way player with a more complete offensive game.
Re: 2 way wings vs 3 and D
Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 10:41 am
by Jaivl
Klay is a 33D player, while Battier is a 3DD player. Clearly.
Re: 2 way wings vs 3 and D
Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 12:03 pm
by Ryoga Hibiki
Dutchball97 wrote:Ryoga Hibiki wrote:rate_ wrote:Klay gets assisted on almost all his FGs. He's primarily 3nD. Jimmy Butler/Kawhi Leonard are 2 way wings
the fact they are "assisted" is irrelevant.
what counts is determine if he's creating an advantage with his movement or if he's just a play finisher of advantage created by someone else.
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Fully disagree with you on this. Every single 3&D player tries to get open with movement. Klay isn't creating many looks for himself or others so he's 3&D and not a typical 2-way player with a more complete offensive game.
they might try, but are they creating an advantage or keeping an advantage?
There's a significant difference between what the likes of Reggie Miller, Allen, Peja or Klay (but even Steph for many possessions, under Kerr) do and what Danny Green or Bruce Bowen used to.
The fist can come off the screen and *create* a situation where either there's an open look for them or the defense is force to rotate. The second will move after someone else already made the defense collapse and will need space to pull the shot off.
And that's obvious when you look at the volumes, the first group can score in mid 20s or more, the second in the low teens, maybe.
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Re: 2 way wings vs 3 and D
Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 12:37 pm
by Dutchball97
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:Dutchball97 wrote:Ryoga Hibiki wrote:the fact they are "assisted" is irrelevant.
what counts is determine if he's creating an advantage with his movement or if he's just a play finisher of advantage created by someone else.
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Fully disagree with you on this. Every single 3&D player tries to get open with movement. Klay isn't creating many looks for himself or others so he's 3&D and not a typical 2-way player with a more complete offensive game.
they might try, but are they creating an advantage or keeping an advantage?
There's a significant difference between what the likes of Reggie Miller, Allen, Peja or Klay (but even Steph for many possessions, under Kerr) and what Danny Green or Bruce Bowen used to.
The fist can come off the screen and either shooting *creating* a situation where either there's an open look or the defense is force to rotate. The second will move after someone else already made the defense collapse and will need space to pull the shot off.
And that's obvious when you look at the volumes, the first group can score in mid 20s or more, the second in the low teens, maybe.
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I see Klay as pretty much the pinnacle of a 3&D player but he doesn't have the offensive game to be compared to the likes of Reggie, Ray and Peja.
Re: 2 way wings vs 3 and D
Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 1:26 pm
by Gooner
Dutchball97 wrote:Ryoga Hibiki wrote:Dutchball97 wrote:
Fully disagree with you on this. Every single 3&D player tries to get open with movement. Klay isn't creating many looks for himself or others so he's 3&D and not a typical 2-way player with a more complete offensive game.
they might try, but are they creating an advantage or keeping an advantage?
There's a significant difference between what the likes of Reggie Miller, Allen, Peja or Klay (but even Steph for many possessions, under Kerr) and what Danny Green or Bruce Bowen used to.
The fist can come off the screen and either shooting *creating* a situation where either there's an open look or the defense is force to rotate. The second will move after someone else already made the defense collapse and will need space to pull the shot off.
And that's obvious when you look at the volumes, the first group can score in mid 20s or more, the second in the low teens, maybe.
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I see Klay as pretty much the pinnacle of a 3&D player but he doesn't have the offensive game to be compared to the likes of Reggie, Ray and Peja.
Klay is better than those guys.
Re: 2 way wings vs 3 and D
Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 1:29 pm
by Dutchball97
Gooner wrote:Dutchball97 wrote:Ryoga Hibiki wrote:they might try, but are they creating an advantage or keeping an advantage?
There's a significant difference between what the likes of Reggie Miller, Allen, Peja or Klay (but even Steph for many possessions, under Kerr) and what Danny Green or Bruce Bowen used to.
The fist can come off the screen and either shooting *creating* a situation where either there's an open look or the defense is force to rotate. The second will move after someone else already made the defense collapse and will need space to pull the shot off.
And that's obvious when you look at the volumes, the first group can score in mid 20s or more, the second in the low teens, maybe.
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Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app
I see Klay as pretty much the pinnacle of a 3&D player but he doesn't have the offensive game to be compared to the likes of Reggie, Ray and Peja.
Klay is better than those guys.
Maybe better than Peja but nowhere close Reggie and Allen. Point still stands Klay's offensive game is way more one-dimensional and the exact prototype of a 3&D guy.
Re: 2 way wings vs 3 and D
Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 1:42 pm
by Ryoga Hibiki
Dutchball97 wrote:Gooner wrote:Dutchball97 wrote:
I see Klay as pretty much the pinnacle of a 3&D player but he doesn't have the offensive game to be compared to the likes of Reggie, Ray and Peja.
Klay is better than those guys.
Maybe better than Peja but nowhere close Reggie and Allen. Point still stands Klay's offensive game is way more one-dimensional and the exact prototype of a 3&D guy.
definitions are not right or wrong, they are just a matter reaching an agreement.
I told you mine, I am wondering what is yours according to which Reggie is not 3&D but Klay is.
Re: 2 way wings vs 3 and D
Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 1:46 pm
by Gooner
Dutchball97 wrote:Gooner wrote:Dutchball97 wrote:
I see Klay as pretty much the pinnacle of a 3&D player but he doesn't have the offensive game to be compared to the likes of Reggie, Ray and Peja.
Klay is better than those guys.
Maybe better than Peja but nowhere close Reggie and Allen. Point still stands Klay's offensive game is way more one-dimensional and the exact prototype of a 3&D guy.
How is it way more one dimensional? They all have a smiliar types of games. Shooters running around through screens and gaps to get open.
Re: 2 way wings vs 3 and D
Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 3:10 pm
by 70sFan
Gooner wrote:Dutchball97 wrote:Gooner wrote:
Klay is better than those guys.
Maybe better than Peja but nowhere close Reggie and Allen. Point still stands Klay's offensive game is way more one-dimensional and the exact prototype of a 3&D guy.
How is it way more one dimensional? They all have a smiliar types of games. Shooters running around through screens and gaps to get open.
Miller was significantly more skilled scorer overall. He could beat opponents off the dribble, he had this awkward but effective floater game, he was much better at drawing fouls. It's like saying that Kobe Bryant and Steve Francis have similar type of games.
Re: 2 way wings vs 3 and D
Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 6:43 pm
by Ryoga Hibiki
70sFan wrote:Gooner wrote:Dutchball97 wrote:
Maybe better than Peja but nowhere close Reggie and Allen. Point still stands Klay's offensive game is way more one-dimensional and the exact prototype of a 3&D guy.
How is it way more one dimensional? They all have a smiliar types of games. Shooters running around through screens and gaps to get open.
Miller was significantly more skilled scorer overall. He could beat opponents off the dribble, he had this awkward but effective floater game, he was much better at drawing fouls. It's like saying that Kobe Bryant and Steve Francis have similar type of games.
We're not comparing an elephant and a car, Miller might have been more skilled but they still were very similar players and both had a game that was primarily off ball.
Either both are 3&D or neither is.
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Re: 2 way wings vs 3 and D
Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 10:39 pm
by Ursusamericanus
Klay is a rich man's 3&D in the sense that he's an exceptional example of the archetype. A two-way wing in my view is a bit less of a specialist than Klay, but is good at more things, especially ball-handling and creating. Jimmy Buckets comes to mind.
Re: 2 way wings vs 3 and D
Posted: Mon May 30, 2022 11:46 am
by Gooner
70sFan wrote:Gooner wrote:Dutchball97 wrote:
Maybe better than Peja but nowhere close Reggie and Allen. Point still stands Klay's offensive game is way more one-dimensional and the exact prototype of a 3&D guy.
How is it way more one dimensional? They all have a smiliar types of games. Shooters running around through screens and gaps to get open.
Miller was significantly more skilled scorer overall. He could beat opponents off the dribble, he had this awkward but effective floater game, he was much better at drawing fouls. It's like saying that Kobe Bryant and Steve Francis have similar type of games.
No he wasn't, they are very similar type of players offensively.
Re: 2 way wings vs 3 and D
Posted: Mon May 30, 2022 1:59 pm
by 70sFan
Gooner wrote:70sFan wrote:Gooner wrote:
How is it way more one dimensional? They all have a smiliar types of games. Shooters running around through screens and gaps to get open.
Miller was significantly more skilled scorer overall. He could beat opponents off the dribble, he had this awkward but effective floater game, he was much better at drawing fouls. It's like saying that Kobe Bryant and Steve Francis have similar type of games.
No he wasn't, they are very similar type of players offensively.
Very constructive analysis, as usual.
Re: 2 way wings vs 3 and D
Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 1:34 am
by Crazy-Canuck
To me, 3 and D is for someone who can defend and is offensively limited.
Re: 2 way wings vs 3 and D
Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 4:30 am
by uberhikari
Dutchball97 wrote:Gooner wrote:Dutchball97 wrote:
I see Klay as pretty much the pinnacle of a 3&D player but he doesn't have the offensive game to be compared to the likes of Reggie, Ray and Peja.
Klay is better than those guys.
Maybe better than Peja but nowhere close Reggie and Allen. Point still stands Klay's offensive game is way more one-dimensional and the exact prototype of a 3&D guy.
What is it that you think separates Klay from Danny Green? Because one of these players can routinely put up 25 ppg in the playoffs or take over entire playoff games, and the other can't.
If Klay is just the beneficiary of advantages other people create, then why can't Danny Green replicate what Klay does?
Re: 2 way wings vs 3 and D
Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 7:06 am
by Gooner
uberhikari wrote:Dutchball97 wrote:Gooner wrote:
Klay is better than those guys.
Maybe better than Peja but nowhere close Reggie and Allen. Point still stands Klay's offensive game is way more one-dimensional and the exact prototype of a 3&D guy.
What is it that you think separates Klay from Danny Green? Because one of these players can routinely put up 25 ppg in the playoffs or take over entire playoff games, and the other can't.
If Klay is just the beneficiary of advantages other people create, then why can't Danny Green replicate what Klay does?
Most of the people here think Klay is the same type of player as Danny Green or JJ Redick.