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Read the boxscore of this game if you want to truly see how selfish Baylor was as a player.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196811220LAL.html


There's a reason why he is considered the GOAT loser in NBA history as he usually **** the bed in those game sevens against the Celtics.


In 1962 he shot 13 out of 40 from the field in an overtime game seven loss while West was 14 out of 30.

In 1966 he shot 6 out of 22 from the field in a two-point loss while West was 12 out of 27.

in 1969 he shot out of 22 from the field in a two-point loss while West was 14 out of 29 and Wilt was 7 out of 8.


The more I read and watch footage about him the more selfish of a player he seems.


As In game 5 of the 1968 finals with West clearly being the superior player at this point.


Baylor shoots 9 out of 26 from the field to West's 14 out of 24 in a three-point loss.

I've never seen any contemporary player calling him selfish, not even Wilt.

70sFan wrote:I've never seen any contemporary player calling him selfish, not even Wilt.

I think Wilt called him a selfish shot jacker in one of his books.

And yet another example of Wilt fans trying to tear down other greats to prop up their hero.

Dutchball97 wrote:And yet another example of Wilt fans trying to tear down other greats to prop up their hero.

Yeah, it's frustrating to be Wilt fan on this board. Half people are calling him overrated bum who played against plumbers and half treat him like a demigod who did nothing wrong in his career.

I feel incredibly bad for West as if Baylor shows up in those game sevens.


Then West retires with 4 rings to his name and he has a great case to be ranked as a top ten player ever.

He also gets to avoid the mental torture that those repeated game seven losses to Boston gave him

Kobe was the most selfish player and I'm not even sure there's a close second. Elgin didn't sabotage his own team in the Finals and then run off Wilt and West so he could pad stats as the first option, then demand a trade when the team wasn't winning enough for his liking.

I don't think a player who was either the number one or number two player involved in getting his team into eight finals can be called selfish.
Baylor took a lot of bad shots for a lot of his career but he had excellent PERs for most of his pre injury career and good ones after that. His career fg percentage would have been a lot higher if had come into the league five years later and learned to take better shots. He shot close to 49% from the field while averaging 25 ppg when he was 35 and playing in a much more athletic league than when he started.
Would the Lakers have won a title or two with him taking better shots? I doubt it. I think it was mostly just a matter of Boston having better teams than the Lakers and better luck.
It was basically just a matter of poor luck that Baylor and West didn't end up with at least three or four titles instead of just one between them.
As West said if Frank Selvy's shot had gone in at the buzzer at the end of regulation in game seven for the '62 finals, the history of the decade might have been a lot different. Sam Jones was 12-31 only scoring 27 pts in that final game while Baylor also had 15 free throws showing him to be more efficient than Jones.
But the Celtics won, because Selvy's open jump shot from 12 feet didn't go in. Baylor and West just had a lot of bad luck in the finals throughout their careers.

MartinToVaught wrote:Kobe was the most selfish player and I'm not even sure there's a close second. Elgin didn't sabotage his own team in the Finals and then run off Wilt and West so he could pad stats as the first option, then demand a trade when the team wasn't winning enough for his liking.

Kobe is living rent free in your head.

As well he should, considering he was the best player in the 2000s, not your beloved Timmy.

There's a reason why he is considered the GOAT loser in NBA history as he usually **** the bed in those game sevens against the Celtics.

Recency bias.

First 6 years of his career (1958-59 to 1964-65) Baylor scored 31 pts/g and shot 43% on 2s. By today's standards that sounds like awful shooting, as the past 6 seasons (2016-17 to 2021-22) the league average 2pt FG% was 52%.

But those 6 years of Baylor the league average 2pt FG% was only 42%. So Baylor actually shot better than the league average, and got to the FT line a ton, over 10 FTAs a game.

In just the past 6 seasons Russell Westbrook scored 25 pts/g shooting 48% on 2s - when again the league average 2pt FG% was 52%.

So which is better?

LAL1947 wrote:

MartinToVaught wrote:Kobe was the most selfish player and I'm not even sure there's a close second. Elgin didn't sabotage his own team in the Finals and then run off Wilt and West so he could pad stats as the first option, then demand a trade when the team wasn't winning enough for his liking.

Kobe is living rent free in your head.

As well he should, considering he was the best player in the 2000s, not your beloved Timmy.

He loss against Timmy D and a 7 ppg DRob in 03 with Prime Shaq. No he was not.

Without film we can't confirm some of the legacy slander against guys like him, Elvin Hayes and Rick Barry, all we have is hard data and history books.

A couple of bad shooting performances from a volume scorer and he's "the most selfish player in NBA history?"

This is ridiculous. There have been many guys who've struggled with their shot, even in playoff games.

In 87 vs Boston, Jordan shot 9/30 in the elimination game. It happens. This is the challenge with having a high-volume primary point of attack, or one of them, anyway.

Statlanta wrote:Without film we can't confirm some of the legacy slander against guys like him, Elvin Hayes and Rick Barry, all we have is hard data and history books.

Could you clarify in what respect these players or any slander against them is analogous? Thanks.

Owly wrote:

Statlanta wrote:Without film we can't confirm some of the legacy slander against guys like him, Elvin Hayes and Rick Barry, all we have is hard data and history books.

Could you clarify in what respect these players or any slander against them is analogous? Thanks.

They are not analogous just that they have general criticism from their era that modern people don't talk about.

I think there's some validity to this in terms of Baylor having his own style of play and refusing to change it even after injuries had begun taking a toll on him. Even in his 61pt finals game I think he shot something like 21-50 from the floor and then he's still taking tons of shots well into the late 60's which he probably was doing more harm to his team than good by taking. One reason he might not get much criticism is that I think he was well liked as a person and he was the face of the franchise even before West got there so maybe guys just didn't want to say anything bad about him.

Must be Elvin Hayes right?

Maybe Iverson...

Statlanta wrote:

Owly wrote:

Statlanta wrote:Without film we can't confirm some of the legacy slander against guys like him, Elvin Hayes and Rick Barry, all we have is hard data and history books.

Could you clarify in what respect these players or any slander against them is analogous? Thanks.

They are not analogous just that they have general criticism from their era that modern people don't talk about.

Does Baylor actually have criticism from his era in the way that Barry or Hayes did? Could you direct to any sources for this?

Going entirely otoh I'd say most semi-comprehensive biographies (not book, just site or article or whatever) would tend to have/cover angles of ... Barry was undiplomatic or Hayes was selfish ... I can't recall this being the case for Baylor, which isn't to say it isn't the case.

No, it was 1962 Wilt.

40 FGA
17 FTA



2 apg

Dutchball97 wrote:And yet another example of Wilt fans trying to tear down other greats to prop up their hero.

Yup here we go again. Imagine having the audacity to slander Elgin (who wasnt ever quite the same after his devastating injury in 65) in the 1969 Finals considering how his favorite Wilt performed overall that series?