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70sFan wrote:For peaks, I might go with Bird as his defense and off-ball play was probably slightly more impactful than Oscar's efficiency and playmaking. It's very close though, 1962-65 Oscar vs 1984-87 Bird is a great discussion.

For primes, I actually go with Oscar. Robertson has 11 years long prime (1961-71) and outside of 1968, he basically didn't miss any games during that period and was the best offensive player in the league for a decade. Bird's prime (1980-88 + 1990) is one year shorter and I don't value 1980-83 + 1990 Bird nearly as high as some people do. I think I'd rank all but 1970 and 1971 Oscar seasons over these.

For careers, I have Oscar one spot ahead of Bird (#11 vs #12). As I said, I think Oscar had a bit better prime and his post prime seasons (1972-74 vs 1991-92) certainly gives slim edge as well if anything.

dygaction wrote:

70sFan wrote:For peaks, I might go with Bird as his defense and off-ball play was probably slightly more impactful than Oscar's efficiency and playmaking. It's very close though, 1962-65 Oscar vs 1984-87 Bird is a great discussion.

For primes, I actually go with Oscar. Robertson has 11 years long prime (1961-71) and outside of 1968, he basically didn't miss any games during that period and was the best offensive player in the league for a decade. Bird's prime (1980-88 + 1990) is one year shorter and I don't value 1980-83 + 1990 Bird nearly as high as some people do. I think I'd rank all but 1970 and 1971 Oscar seasons over these.

For careers, I have Oscar one spot ahead of Bird (#11 vs #12). As I said, I think Oscar had a bit better prime and his post prime seasons (1972-74 vs 1991-92) certainly gives slim edge as well if anything.

Interesting. I have never seen any ranking having Oscar ahead of Bird...

eminence wrote:-snip-
7. Wilt
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. Oscar
11. Magic - career value a bit lower than this group for me, but one of the very few players I give a bit of a boost for more longevity than he actually achieved due to outside circumstance. Strong contender for offensive GOAT in his prime.

12. Kobe - solid longevity, bit lower peak than most above, fairly easy archetype to build around imo.
13. Dirk - best offensive big man of alltime, pretty consistent greatness, some playoff struggles early/mid career.
14. Bird - could've been a tier up, but poor longevity and some injury issues/playoff struggles.
-snip-

Colbinii wrote:I will preface this by saying I have #10 [Magic] through #16 [Kobe] in a similar tier.

11. Dirk Nowitzki - Strong and long prime, playoff woes keep him from being higher but he was relatively strong, all-time great offensive player and a true offensive anchor similar to the best point guards of all-time

12. Oscar Robertson - Magic before Magic. Dominant perimeter player in a league dominated by big men moreso than ever. The first true "Offensive Catalyst" and a long prime. Difficult player to rank due to limited availability of information compared to the data era but I feel comfortable with him being in the same tier as Magic.

13. Karl Malone - Insane longevity, lowest peak of the 12 ahead of him and not a tremendous playoff performer but his teams were limited in terms of offensive help surrounding him. Strong and good defender with his strength make somewhere between Dirk and the best bigs above him defensively. Not someone I would categorize as an "offensive catalyst", rather a very crucial cog in an offensive system.

14. Larry Bird - Terrific offensive player with portability never seen prior to his arrival in the NBA. Weaker longevity than Dirk/Malone and a short defensive peak/prime. Some playoff woes [and playoff moments which were spectacular]. Another offensive minded player who is definitely a catalyst to an offensive system.

Fundamentals21 wrote:I am projecting Curry to end his career at #10 or so.

11. Oscar - very steady offensive juggernaut. Actually people talk about Nash, but what if Nash were a super triple double machine on top. Oscar did much of the same in his era, anchoring strong offenses for a long time.
12. Bird - Most view Bird as guaranteed top 8 or so, though I am a little down on him in the playoffs, he was great, but not necessarily as great as someone like Shaq, Hakeem, or even Magic. Still obviously an all timer in terms of how important he was to the league for over a decade.

dygaction wrote:

70sFan wrote:For peaks, I might go with Bird as his defense and off-ball play was probably slightly more impactful than Oscar's efficiency and playmaking. It's very close though, 1962-65 Oscar vs 1984-87 Bird is a great discussion.

For primes, I actually go with Oscar. Robertson has 11 years long prime (1961-71) and outside of 1968, he basically didn't miss any games during that period and was the best offensive player in the league for a decade. Bird's prime (1980-88 + 1990) is one year shorter and I don't value 1980-83 + 1990 Bird nearly as high as some people do. I think I'd rank all but 1970 and 1971 Oscar seasons over these.

For careers, I have Oscar one spot ahead of Bird (#11 vs #12). As I said, I think Oscar had a bit better prime and his post prime seasons (1972-74 vs 1991-92) certainly gives slim edge as well if anything.

Interesting. I have never seen any ranking having Oscar ahead of Bird...

Colbinii wrote:

dygaction wrote:

70sFan wrote:For peaks, I might go with Bird as his defense and off-ball play was probably slightly more impactful than Oscar's efficiency and playmaking. It's very close though, 1962-65 Oscar vs 1984-87 Bird is a great discussion.

For primes, I actually go with Oscar. Robertson has 11 years long prime (1961-71) and outside of 1968, he basically didn't miss any games during that period and was the best offensive player in the league for a decade. Bird's prime (1980-88 + 1990) is one year shorter and I don't value 1980-83 + 1990 Bird nearly as high as some people do. I think I'd rank all but 1970 and 1971 Oscar seasons over these.

For careers, I have Oscar one spot ahead of Bird (#11 vs #12). As I said, I think Oscar had a bit better prime and his post prime seasons (1972-74 vs 1991-92) certainly gives slim edge as well if anything.

Interesting. I have never seen any ranking having Oscar ahead of Bird...

eminence wrote:-snip-
7. Wilt
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. Oscar
11. Magic - career value a bit lower than this group for me, but one of the very few players I give a bit of a boost for more longevity than he actually achieved due to outside circumstance. Strong contender for offensive GOAT in his prime.

12. Kobe - solid longevity, bit lower peak than most above, fairly easy archetype to build around imo.
13. Dirk - best offensive big man of alltime, pretty consistent greatness, some playoff struggles early/mid career.
14. Bird - could've been a tier up, but poor longevity and some injury issues/playoff struggles.
-snip-

Colbinii wrote:I will preface this by saying I have #10 [Magic] through #16 [Kobe] in a similar tier.

11. Dirk Nowitzki - Strong and long prime, playoff woes keep him from being higher but he was relatively strong, all-time great offensive player and a true offensive anchor similar to the best point guards of all-time

12. Oscar Robertson - Magic before Magic. Dominant perimeter player in a league dominated by big men moreso than ever. The first true "Offensive Catalyst" and a long prime. Difficult player to rank due to limited availability of information compared to the data era but I feel comfortable with him being in the same tier as Magic.

13. Karl Malone - Insane longevity, lowest peak of the 12 ahead of him and not a tremendous playoff performer but his teams were limited in terms of offensive help surrounding him. Strong and good defender with his strength make somewhere between Dirk and the best bigs above him defensively. Not someone I would categorize as an "offensive catalyst", rather a very crucial cog in an offensive system.

14. Larry Bird - Terrific offensive player with portability never seen prior to his arrival in the NBA. Weaker longevity than Dirk/Malone and a short defensive peak/prime. Some playoff woes [and playoff moments which were spectacular]. Another offensive minded player who is definitely a catalyst to an offensive system.

Fundamentals21 wrote:I am projecting Curry to end his career at #10 or so.

11. Oscar - very steady offensive juggernaut. Actually people talk about Nash, but what if Nash were a super triple double machine on top. Oscar did much of the same in his era, anchoring strong offenses for a long time.
12. Bird - Most view Bird as guaranteed top 8 or so, though I am a little down on him in the playoffs, he was great, but not necessarily as great as someone like Shaq, Hakeem, or even Magic. Still obviously an all timer in terms of how important he was to the league for over a decade.

dygaction wrote:

Colbinii wrote:

dygaction wrote:
Interesting. I have never seen any ranking having Oscar ahead of Bird...

eminence wrote:-snip-
7. Wilt
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. Oscar
11. Magic - career value a bit lower than this group for me, but one of the very few players I give a bit of a boost for more longevity than he actually achieved due to outside circumstance. Strong contender for offensive GOAT in his prime.

12. Kobe - solid longevity, bit lower peak than most above, fairly easy archetype to build around imo.
13. Dirk - best offensive big man of alltime, pretty consistent greatness, some playoff struggles early/mid career.
14. Bird - could've been a tier up, but poor longevity and some injury issues/playoff struggles.
-snip-

Colbinii wrote:I will preface this by saying I have #10 [Magic] through #16 [Kobe] in a similar tier.

11. Dirk Nowitzki - Strong and long prime, playoff woes keep him from being higher but he was relatively strong, all-time great offensive player and a true offensive anchor similar to the best point guards of all-time

12. Oscar Robertson - Magic before Magic. Dominant perimeter player in a league dominated by big men moreso than ever. The first true "Offensive Catalyst" and a long prime. Difficult player to rank due to limited availability of information compared to the data era but I feel comfortable with him being in the same tier as Magic.

13. Karl Malone - Insane longevity, lowest peak of the 12 ahead of him and not a tremendous playoff performer but his teams were limited in terms of offensive help surrounding him. Strong and good defender with his strength make somewhere between Dirk and the best bigs above him defensively. Not someone I would categorize as an "offensive catalyst", rather a very crucial cog in an offensive system.

14. Larry Bird - Terrific offensive player with portability never seen prior to his arrival in the NBA. Weaker longevity than Dirk/Malone and a short defensive peak/prime. Some playoff woes [and playoff moments which were spectacular]. Another offensive minded player who is definitely a catalyst to an offensive system.

Fundamentals21 wrote:I am projecting Curry to end his career at #10 or so.

11. Oscar - very steady offensive juggernaut. Actually people talk about Nash, but what if Nash were a super triple double machine on top. Oscar did much of the same in his era, anchoring strong offenses for a long time.
12. Bird - Most view Bird as guaranteed top 8 or so, though I am a little down on him in the playoffs, he was great, but not necessarily as great as someone like Shaq, Hakeem, or even Magic. Still obviously an all timer in terms of how important he was to the league for over a decade.

I meant media or voted rankings. What you listed are personal rankings and I have seen Curry at #1.

dygaction wrote:

Colbinii wrote:

dygaction wrote:
Interesting. I have never seen any ranking having Oscar ahead of Bird...

eminence wrote:-snip-
7. Wilt
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. Oscar
11. Magic - career value a bit lower than this group for me, but one of the very few players I give a bit of a boost for more longevity than he actually achieved due to outside circumstance. Strong contender for offensive GOAT in his prime.

12. Kobe - solid longevity, bit lower peak than most above, fairly easy archetype to build around imo.
13. Dirk - best offensive big man of alltime, pretty consistent greatness, some playoff struggles early/mid career.
14. Bird - could've been a tier up, but poor longevity and some injury issues/playoff struggles.
-snip-

Colbinii wrote:I will preface this by saying I have #10 [Magic] through #16 [Kobe] in a similar tier.

11. Dirk Nowitzki - Strong and long prime, playoff woes keep him from being higher but he was relatively strong, all-time great offensive player and a true offensive anchor similar to the best point guards of all-time

12. Oscar Robertson - Magic before Magic. Dominant perimeter player in a league dominated by big men moreso than ever. The first true "Offensive Catalyst" and a long prime. Difficult player to rank due to limited availability of information compared to the data era but I feel comfortable with him being in the same tier as Magic.

13. Karl Malone - Insane longevity, lowest peak of the 12 ahead of him and not a tremendous playoff performer but his teams were limited in terms of offensive help surrounding him. Strong and good defender with his strength make somewhere between Dirk and the best bigs above him defensively. Not someone I would categorize as an "offensive catalyst", rather a very crucial cog in an offensive system.

14. Larry Bird - Terrific offensive player with portability never seen prior to his arrival in the NBA. Weaker longevity than Dirk/Malone and a short defensive peak/prime. Some playoff woes [and playoff moments which were spectacular]. Another offensive minded player who is definitely a catalyst to an offensive system.

Fundamentals21 wrote:I am projecting Curry to end his career at #10 or so.

11. Oscar - very steady offensive juggernaut. Actually people talk about Nash, but what if Nash were a super triple double machine on top. Oscar did much of the same in his era, anchoring strong offenses for a long time.
12. Bird - Most view Bird as guaranteed top 8 or so, though I am a little down on him in the playoffs, he was great, but not necessarily as great as someone like Shaq, Hakeem, or even Magic. Still obviously an all timer in terms of how important he was to the league for over a decade.

I meant media or voted rankings. What you listed are personal rankings and I have seen Curry at #1.

migya wrote:Definitely close, these two are alltime greats. Fact is Oscar gets underrated because his team's weren't good and he didn't win much. If he was in Bird's place, on the Celtics is what I mean, he'd have won as much as Bird and would considered top ten.

70sFan wrote:For peaks, I might go with Bird as his defense and off-ball play was probably slightly more impactful than Oscar's efficiency and playmaking. It's very close though, 1962-65 Oscar vs 1984-87 Bird is a great discussion.

For primes, I actually go with Oscar. Robertson has 11 years long prime (1961-71) and outside of 1968, he basically didn't miss any games during that period and was the best offensive player in the league for a decade. Bird's prime (1980-88 + 1990) is one year shorter and I don't value 1980-83 + 1990 Bird nearly as high as some people do. I think I'd rank all but 1970 and 1971 Oscar seasons over these.

For careers, I have Oscar one spot ahead of Bird (#11 vs #12). As I said, I think Oscar had a bit better prime and his post prime seasons (1972-74 vs 1991-92) certainly gives slim edge as well if anything.

Doctor MJ wrote:

70sFan wrote:For peaks, I might go with Bird as his defense and off-ball play was probably slightly more impactful than Oscar's efficiency and playmaking. It's very close though, 1962-65 Oscar vs 1984-87 Bird is a great discussion.

For primes, I actually go with Oscar. Robertson has 11 years long prime (1961-71) and outside of 1968, he basically didn't miss any games during that period and was the best offensive player in the league for a decade. Bird's prime (1980-88 + 1990) is one year shorter and I don't value 1980-83 + 1990 Bird nearly as high as some people do. I think I'd rank all but 1970 and 1971 Oscar seasons over these.

For careers, I have Oscar one spot ahead of Bird (#11 vs #12). As I said, I think Oscar had a bit better prime and his post prime seasons (1972-74 vs 1991-92) certainly gives slim edge as well if anything.

Pretty reasonable. I think I've always had Magic & Bird over Oscar & West, but it's very much debatable and maybe someday I'll switch.

DQuinn1575 wrote:

migya wrote:Definitely close, these two are alltime greats. Fact is Oscar gets underrated because his team's weren't good and he didn't win much. If he was in Bird's place, on the Celtics is what I mean, he'd have won as much as Bird and would considered top ten.

If Oscar had won 3 NBA titles in Cincinnati and then one in Milwaukee, he would have been considered the GOAT before Jordan, and there would have been arguments if Jordan was greater than Oscar.

Bird is one of those guys that the myth of him is probably slightly greater than he actually was. Mainly because his defensive reputation is probably overrated

kcktiny wrote:
Bird alone played 15%-16% of the Celtics total minutes played. The first 11 players listed played 82% of their total minutes played.

Someone on that team had to be playing great defense - for a long time - for the Celtics to have been the 2nd best team defensively in the league over a long 9 year period.

If Bird was not an excellent or great defender, then who was such that they were as a team 2nd best on defense over 9 seasons?

I say that McHale, D.J., Parish, and Bird were all excellent defenders, for a long time, and that these 4 players are the primary reason why Boston was such a great team defensively over those 9 seasons.

I think its fairly accurate to say that DJ was something of a defensive specialist in his time with the Celtics and that McHale was probably the best defending 4 of his era or close to it. So ya I don't see why what you listed above is any sort of proof about Bird being a great defender.