RealGM

Playoffs only, how many Kobe years would you take over ’22 Jimmy Butler?

Definitely none. Playoffs 09 Kobe comes closest, but even comparing the numbers it's clear 22 Jimmy is superior. Jimmy's playoff peak in 2022 could be argued 2nd to Jordan among SGs all time

01 Kobe is my favorite Kobe so I'll take that one.

Well we gotta consider rule changes as well. Kobe 2001, 2002, 2008-2010 for sure.

2019 Kawhi all over again...

rate_ wrote:Definitely none. Playoffs 09 Kobe comes closest, but even comparing the numbers it's clear 22 Jimmy is superior. Jimmy's playoff peak in 2022 could be argued 2nd to Jordan among SGs all time

Not remotely close to Jerry West's best runs for starters, and I doubt it's as good as Wade's best runs either. Moreover, Kobe's 2001 run was pretty insane, and especially given the era probably better than Jimmy's. And his 2008-2010 runs are all very arguable as well.

rate_ wrote:Definitely none. Playoffs 09 Kobe comes closest, but even comparing the numbers it's clear 22 Jimmy is superior. Jimmy's playoff peak in 2022 could be argued 2nd to Jordan among SGs all time

Jerry West's 1965 playoffs is way better then Butler's 2022 playoff run


As Elgin Baylor was out for the season with a knee injury.

Plus West was the only HOFer on LA aside from young Don Nelson, averaging 2 ppg that year,


While his first round opponent in Baltimore has Gus Johnson, Walt Bellamy, and Bailey Howell, all HOFers.

West averages: 46.3 ppg 5.8 rpg 6.8 apg 45.3% FG% 90.5 FT%

Lakers win in 6

Game 1: 49p/6r/8a, 15-35 FG, 19-21 FT Lakers win, 121-115

Game 2: 52p/5r/9a, 16-38 FG, 20-21 FT Lakers win, 118-115

Game 3: 44p/7r/4a, 13-29 FG, 18-19 FT Bullets win, 115-122

Game 4: 48p/3r/5a, 20-43 FG, 8-8 FT Bullets win, 112-114

Game 5: 43p/6r/7a, 17-34 FG, 9-12 FT Lakers win, 120-112

Game 6: 42p/8r/8a, 15-33 FG, 12-14 FT Lakers win, 117-115

In the 1965 WCF. LA was a total +10 in 6 games. despite West's monster games and performances..



Also for the entire playoffs.


Jerry West averaged 40.6 points, 5.7 rebounds and 5.3 assists which is insane.

2001 and 2009 definitely. Probably 2008 as well, 2010 wasn't bad either.

None. Butler had 12 BPM. That's better than every postseason ever except for 2009 LeBron and peak Jordan

2008 and 2009. Also 2001, I'm unsure if he was a better player, but he was a flamethrower.

Are we talking about the same Jimmy Butler that put up these numbers in the ECFs?

Game 3 - 8pts
Game 4 - 6pts
Game 5 - 13pts

Second best SG ever guys. The BPM says so.

Stalwart wrote:Are we talking about the same Jimmy Butler that put up these numbers in the ECFs?

Game 3 - 8pts
Game 4 - 6pts
Game 5 - 13pts

Second best SG ever guys. The BPM says so.

I mean... talking about high stakes games against the Celtics, I'd probably take 6 points over 7/22 and 6/24.

Jaivl wrote:

Stalwart wrote:Are we talking about the same Jimmy Butler that put up these numbers in the ECFs?

Game 3 - 8pts
Game 4 - 6pts
Game 5 - 13pts

Second best SG ever guys. The BPM says so.

I mean... talking about high stakes games against the Celtics, I'd probably take 6 points over 7/22 and 6/24.

You'd take 6pts and a loss in the ECFs over 23pts and a championship? If you say so. Dat efficiency.

rate_ wrote:Definitely none. Playoffs 09 Kobe comes closest, but even comparing the numbers it's clear 22 Jimmy is superior. Jimmy's playoff peak in 2022 could be argued 2nd to Jordan among SGs all time

I remember you also saying on the general board how Butler was better than 2012 postseason Lebron too because of the numbers. You can’t just compare box scores a decade apart like that, especially not with how quickly the game has changed the past 4-5 years or so.

coastalmarker99 wrote:While his first round opponent in Baltimore has Gus Johnson, Walt Bellamy, and Bailey Howell, all HOFers

Is HoF - a career, individual, indirect/accolade based measure - as relevant a measure of team as how they played (in this instance core players mainly available throughout the season)?

fwiw
Bullets SRS: -1.97 (6th of 9 teams, 35th worst SRS to qualify for [NBA/BAA] playoffs through 2019).

No-more-rings wrote:

rate_ wrote:Definitely none. Playoffs 09 Kobe comes closest, but even comparing the numbers it's clear 22 Jimmy is superior. Jimmy's playoff peak in 2022 could be argued 2nd to Jordan among SGs all time

I remember you also saying on the general board how Butler was better than 2012 postseason Lebron too because of the numbers. You can’t just compare box scores a decade apart like that, especially not with how quickly the game has changed the past 4-5 years or so.

You sure that was me? I'm pretty sure I don't believe that not even a little bit. Butler was great this post season but not Jordan, Lebron, or Kobe great. I think these are some prisoner of the moment takes.

Stalwart wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:

rate_ wrote:Definitely none. Playoffs 09 Kobe comes closest, but even comparing the numbers it's clear 22 Jimmy is superior. Jimmy's playoff peak in 2022 could be argued 2nd to Jordan among SGs all time

I remember you also saying on the general board how Butler was better than 2012 postseason Lebron too because of the numbers. You can’t just compare box scores a decade apart like that, especially not with how quickly the game has changed the past 4-5 years or so.

You sure that was me? I'm pretty sure I don't believe that not even a little bit. Butler was great this post season but not Jordan, Lebron, or Kobe great. I think these are some prisoner of the moment takes.

I didn’t quote you, so no I didn’t say you claimed that.

coastalmarker99 wrote:

rate_ wrote:Definitely none. Playoffs 09 Kobe comes closest, but even comparing the numbers it's clear 22 Jimmy is superior. Jimmy's playoff peak in 2022 could be argued 2nd to Jordan among SGs all time

Jerry West's 1965 playoffs is way better then Butler's 2022 playoff run


As Elgin Baylor was out for the season with a knee injury.

Plus West was the only HOFer on LA aside from young Don Nelson, averaging 2 ppg that year,


While his first round opponent in Baltimore has Gus Johnson, Walt Bellamy, and Bailey Howell, all HOFers.

West averages: 46.3 ppg 5.8 rpg 6.8 apg 45.3% FG% 90.5 FT%

Lakers win in 6

Game 1: 49p/6r/8a, 15-35 FG, 19-21 FT Lakers win, 121-115

Game 2: 52p/5r/9a, 16-38 FG, 20-21 FT Lakers win, 118-115

Game 3: 44p/7r/4a, 13-29 FG, 18-19 FT Bullets win, 115-122

Game 4: 48p/3r/5a, 20-43 FG, 8-8 FT Bullets win, 112-114

Game 5: 43p/6r/7a, 17-34 FG, 9-12 FT Lakers win, 120-112

Game 6: 42p/8r/8a, 15-33 FG, 12-14 FT Lakers win, 117-115

In the 1965 WCF. LA was a total +10 in 6 games. despite West's monster games and performances..



Also for the entire playoffs.


Jerry West averaged 40.6 points, 5.7 rebounds and 5.3 assists which is insane.

I'm unsure what these numbers are supposed to prove given how radically different the statistical environments are. West averaged 31.9 FGAs plus 14.0 FTAs in 1965, that's how he averaged 40.6 PPG. West could have that volume because the Lakers playoff pace was 115.7, over 21 possessions more per game than Miami averaged this postseason (94.3). On top of that, West played 42.7 MPG to Butler's 37.0 MPG; one could pretend that's because West had superior stamina but three players in the 1965 playoffs averaged more than 48 MPG so there's obviously an environmental difference that permitted players to play higher minutes back then.

There's no point in using stats from 5-6 decades ago to compare against modern players. I don't doubt West had an exceptional postseason in 1965 but there's no empirical basis to compare what he did to what Butler just did, which was also exceptional. Statistically, Butler basically replicated 2014 LeBron:

2014 LeBron
27.4 PPG (.668 TS%), 7.1 RPG, 4.8 APG (3.1 TO), 1.8 SPG, 0.6 BPG

2022 Butler
27.4 PPG (.604 TS%), 7.4 RPG, 4.6 APG (1.5 TO), 2.1 SPG, 0.6 BPG

This is ridiculous, when did PC Board start focusing on "advanced stats" sheet from basketball-reference? That's what I'm talking when I say that the level of discussion is considerably lower these days...

70sFan wrote:This is ridiculous, when did PC Board start focusing on "advanced stats" sheet from basketball-reference? That's what I'm talking when I say that the level of discussion is considerably lower these days...

Dude it's starting to get really bad around here lol. Jimmy Butler=Prime Lebron, Butler>Wade and Kobe. Some will tell you how Giannis has clearly surpassed Kg's peak, and if you disagree you're apparently biased. There's starting to be some Curry vs Lebron comparisons creeping up. In a few years we might start seeing some Jokic vs Jordan comparisons. I don't mean to sound negative, but people really need to chill with such heavy use of box scores. We've had like record breaking PERs and BPMs in recent years, it doesn't make those players the goat.

No-more-rings wrote:

70sFan wrote:This is ridiculous, when did PC Board start focusing on "advanced stats" sheet from basketball-reference? That's what I'm talking when I say that the level of discussion is considerably lower these days...

Dude it's starting to get really bad around here lol. Jimmy Butler=Prime Lebron, Butler>Wade and Kobe. Some will tell you how Giannis has clearly surpassed Kg's peak, and if you disagree you're apparently biased. There's starting to be some Curry vs Lebron comparisons creeping up. In a few years we might start seeing some Jokic vs Jordan comparisons. I don't mean to sound negative, but people really need to chill with such heavy use of box scores. We've had like record breaking PERs and BPMs in recent years, it doesn't make those players the goat.

I agree that people do tend to overrate seasons that have just happened, and using earth shattering box scores as if box scores aren’t inflated is pretty oof

At the same time, I do think the former is true

The peaks project was done in 2019, start of the 2019-2020 season, but realistically the only peaks that end up there in the past few years and Jokic and Giannis

Here are the appearences on that list, from 2015-2019

Curry 2016 (15th)
Westbrook 2017 (25th)
Kawhi 2019 (27th)
Giannis 2019 (31st)
Harden 2019 (35th)

You can probably slot in Jokic in the top 20 ish, and
giannis probably goes closer to 10

It’s not as if that’s super unfair or anything (personally I’d have curry higher, 2022 Giannis a tad lower than curry maybe, and replace 2014 KD with KD 2017 and boost him and Kawhi a few spots)

But I don’t think someone having giannis’s peak a good deal higher than Garnett’s or currys in the top 10 is unreasonable, it’s obviously not undebatable either though.

There are some hot take reactions for sure don’t get me wrong, but being high on guys like peak Kawhi/curry/durant/Giannis shouldn’t really be something that people should get shamed for lol

(Altho saying any of them are = to peak lebron is kinda crazy lol)