RealGM

See above.

Honestly, outside of his rookie year and 1998 I'd probably take any version. Not saying he was necessarily more efficient every single year or whatever, but I know I can get 40 minutes and 82 games basically every year, and even more in the playoffs, so even if you think they were better some years, which I probably wouldn't agree with anyway, just all that extra floor time is a LOT.

88-93

NO-KG-AI wrote:Honestly, outside of his rookie year and 1998 I'd probably take any version. Not saying he was necessarily more efficient every single year or whatever, but I know I can get 40 minutes and 82 games basically every year, and even more in the playoffs, so even if you think they were better some years, which I probably wouldn't agree with anyway, just all that extra floor time is a LOT.

86 jordan mkssed most of the season and so did 95 jordan, you probably should excludr those two too

Jaivl wrote:88-93

This is probably what i’d say. I think 96 can be argued as well though.

falcolombardi wrote:

NO-KG-AI wrote:Honestly, outside of his rookie year and 1998 I'd probably take any version. Not saying he was necessarily more efficient every single year or whatever, but I know I can get 40 minutes and 82 games basically every year, and even more in the playoffs, so even if you think they were better some years, which I probably wouldn't agree with anyway, just all that extra floor time is a LOT.

86 jordan mkssed most of the season and so did 95 jordan, you probably should excludr those two too

I kinda disregard the 95 return season in my head, but yea. It’s clear to me by the 86 playoffs Jordan was at the level where the only hope teams have is him being on a worse team, but yea, he missed a lot that year so it’s a throwaway season mostly.

falcolombardi wrote:

NO-KG-AI wrote:Honestly, outside of his rookie year and 1998 I'd probably take any version. Not saying he was necessarily more efficient every single year or whatever, but I know I can get 40 minutes and 82 games basically every year, and even more in the playoffs, so even if you think they were better some years, which I probably wouldn't agree with anyway, just all that extra floor time is a LOT.

86 jordan mkssed most of the season and so did 95 jordan, you probably should excludr those two too

I kinda disregard the 95 return season in my head, but yea. It’s clear to me by the 86 playoffs Jordan was at the level where the only hope teams have is him being on a worse team, but yea, he missed a lot that year so it’s a throwaway season mostly.

I would venture to say 88-93+ 96 but I'm not entirely sold on 88-89-96 MJ doing any better than Jokic did this season in the same situation or even last year.

88-93, 96.

I wouldn't take any versions of Jordan over 2020-2021 through 2021-2022 Jokic in particular. Or, probably Giannis the past 3 years, either.

For one, the league is drastically deeper, totally globalized, and the league hasn't expanded in almost 20 years.

The league expanded by 6 teams during Jordan's prime and only 1.8% of the league was Non American in 1997-1998.

Today Non Americans are 25% of the league, including at least HALF of the top 10 players.

The NBA is so much deeper and better today than the 90's, it's fairly staggering.

Given quality of competition, Jokic since the start of 2020-2021 including playoffs (27.0/12.3/7.8 on .300 WS/48) is more impressive than anything Jordan ever did.

ty 4191 wrote:I wouldn't take any versions of Jordan over 2020-2021 through 2021-2022 Jokic in particular. Or, probably Giannis the past 3 years, either.

For one, the league is drastically deeper, totally globalized, and the league hasn't expanded in almost 20 years.

The league expanded by 6 teams during Jordan's prime and only 1.8% of the league was Non American in 1997-1998.

Today Non Americans are 25% of the league, including at least HALF of the top 10 players.

The NBA is so much deeper and better today than the 90's, it's fairly staggering.

Given quality of competition, Jokic since the start of 2020-2021 including playoffs (27.0/12.3/7.8 on .300 WS/48) is more impressive than anything Jordan ever did.

So then you admit that you belittling some of Lebron's longevity records in other threads has some nuance when you consider he was playing a more global league than Kareem and Wilt?

ty 4191 wrote:I wouldn't take any versions of Jordan over 2020-2021 through 2021-2022 Jokic in particular. Or, probably Giannis the past 3 years, either.

For one, the league is drastically deeper, totally globalized, and the league hasn't expanded in almost 20 years.

The league expanded by 6 teams during Jordan's prime and only 1.8% of the league was Non American in 1997-1998.

Today Non Americans are 25% of the league, including at least HALF of the top 10 players.

The NBA is so much deeper and better today than the 90's, it's fairly staggering.

Given quality of competition, Jokic since the start of 2020-2021 including playoffs (27.0/12.3/7.8 on .300 WS/48) is more impressive than anything Jordan ever did.

Wait so you think Giannis and Jokic already have goat level peaks?

Probably his eight best seasons:

88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 96, and 97

EDIT: '98 MJ and '22 Jokic roughly equal.

I can respect the guy who said he'd take Jokic and Giannis over any Jordan, though. The league is much better now, he's right about that. I tend to think Jordan would be an extremely different player in today's league, though, and I like to give the benefit of the doubt if a guy dominates his era and wins titles.

LukaTheGOAT wrote:

ty 4191 wrote:I wouldn't take any versions of Jordan over 2020-2021 through 2021-2022 Jokic in particular. Or, probably Giannis the past 3 years, either.

For one, the league is drastically deeper, totally globalized, and the league hasn't expanded in almost 20 years.

The league expanded by 6 teams during Jordan's prime and only 1.8% of the league was Non American in 1997-1998.

Today Non Americans are 25% of the league, including at least HALF of the top 10 players.

The NBA is so much deeper and better today than the 90's, it's fairly staggering.

Given quality of competition, Jokic since the start of 2020-2021 including playoffs (27.0/12.3/7.8 on .300 WS/48) is more impressive than anything Jordan ever did.

So then you admit that you belittling some of Lebron's longevity records in other threads has some nuance when you consider he was playing a more global league than Kareem and Wilt?

Yes. I do.

No-more-rings wrote:
Wait so you think Giannis and Jokic already have goat level peaks?

Yes, you don't? Why not?

Jokic is third all time in PER and WS/48 in NBA History of all players with 15,000 MP. I'd say 15,000 MP is a statistically significant sample size for a career.

And, Jokic's last two years are on par with anything anyone has ever done, considering how deep and strong the league is, now.

1989-93 I think. I might enjoy 1988 and 1996 over Giannis as well, but probably not over Jokic.

ty 4191 wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:
Wait so you think Giannis and Jokic already have goat level peaks?

Yes, you don't? Why not?

Do you have your peaks list?

I don't buy Giannis as much in terms of ATG peaks except for this year. Jokic is hard to evaluate due to defense but offensively and holistically I can definitely buy him having an ATG level peak.

ty 4191 wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:
Wait so you think Giannis and Jokic already have goat level peaks?

Yes, you don't? Why not?

Jokic is third all time in PER and WS/48 in NBA History of all players with 15,000 MP. I'd say 15,000 MP is a statistically significant sample size for a career.

And, Jokic's last two years are on par with anything anyone has ever done, considering how deep and strong the league is, now.

WS/48 is mostly a junk stat, and PER skews heavily towards offense which is where most of if not all of his impact comes from. Jokic isn’t really much of a two-way player even if he was a net positive on defense this year, someone like Lebron, MJ and Kareem among others are significantly better defenders. In Jordan’s case he was a transcendent athlete with goat level mid range game, along with a lot of other skills. Someone like him isn’t going to limited playing in a league with more talent, why would he be?

FYI Giannis and Jokic both lost to inferior teams with HCA nor ever 3 peated for the franchise that drafted them.