RealGM

This will be tough, but I will do my best to create a poll that works.
I have the legends of the game in tiers. Everyone might not exactly agree of course, but I think these players HAVE TO BE considered top 20 players (no order in the tier listings)
GOAT tier
LBJ, MJ, KAJ

Legend Tier
Wilt, Russell, Duncan, Magic, Shaq

Top 10ish
Hakeem, Kobe, Bird

I think we would all agree that these 11 players are top 20 guys

Then, I have the 11-15 type guys, that I think HAVE TO BE top 20, at the minimum
West, Oscar, Moses, KG, Dr. J

So, that leaves 4 spots in the top 20-who would you put there as of today?

I have DRob, Curry, Dirk and KMalone-but it's tough. Plus, Luka/Giannis/Jokic are coming for top 20 (or top 10) spots in the future

My top 20 is a little different:

GOAT tier: Kareem, James, Russell, Jordan

Legend tier: Duncan, Wilt, Hakeem, Shaq

Top 10-ish: Magic, Garnett, Oscar, Bird

HAVE TO BE top 20: Kobe, Mailman, West, Julius, Dirk, Steph

So I have 18 players that are solidified top 18.

Contenders for top 20: Robinson, Moses, Paul, Durant, Barkley

For now, I can't decide between Moses, Paul and Durant. I think Robinson is at 19th spot and Barkley is slightly below the rest.

Curry and KD are in my top 20. Less certain about KD than Curry. Curry might make my top 10 after the finals.

I'd put Malone in there too. I don't know whether Barkley/Robinson get in.

My top 20 is probably:

1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Wilt
6. Magic
7. Duncan
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe
11. KG
12. Bird
13. Curry
14. West
15. Robertson
16. Dirk
17. Malone
18. Erving
19. Durant
20. Barkley/Robinson

I think Curry and KD have probably done enough to get into the top 20 by now. Dirk and Robinson are locks for me. I'd probably have the Malones fight it out for the last spot as I'm a bit lower than average on both guys. Mikan is another serious contender but I usually find myself having him a couple spots lower due to not great longevity and competition.

I forgot about Mikan (as always), I have to reevaluate his career at some point. He probably should be inside top 20 though.

At this point Curry should be an automatic inclusion.

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:Curry and KD are in my top 20. Less certain about KD than Curry. Curry might make my top 10 after the finals.

I'd put Malone in there too. I don't know whether Barkley/Robinson get in.

My top 20 is probably:

1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Wilt
6. Magic
7. Duncan
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe
11. KG
12. Bird
13. Curry
14. West
15. Robertson
16. Dirk
17. Malone
18. Erving
19. Durant
20. Barkley/Robinson

Which one?

pipfan wrote:This will be tough, but I will do my best to create a poll that works.
I have the legends of the game in tiers. Everyone might not exactly agree of course, but I think these players HAVE TO BE considered top 20 players (no order in the tier listings)
GOAT tier
LBJ, MJ, KAJ

Legend Tier
Wilt, Russell, Duncan, Magic, Shaq

Top 10ish
Hakeem, Kobe, Bird

I think we would all agree that these 11 players are top 20 guys

Then, I have the 11-15 type guys, that I think HAVE TO BE top 20, at the minimum
West, Oscar, Moses, KG, Dr. J

So, that leaves 4 spots in the top 20-who would you put there as of today?

I have DRob, Curry, Dirk and KMalone-but it's tough. Plus, Luka/Giannis/Jokic are coming for top 20 (or top 10) spots in the future

I'm bringing up my list before I vote, but the obvious thing would've been to allow as many votes as there are options, instead of assuming a consensus on certain players. At a glance, I think you may have more than four of my Top 20 guys in the poll. If so, I'll be forced to vote for the highest ones. (Yup. I have six of the guys you listed in my 20.)

scrabbarista wrote:

pipfan wrote:This will be tough, but I will do my best to create a poll that works.
I have the legends of the game in tiers. Everyone might not exactly agree of course, but I think these players HAVE TO BE considered top 20 players (no order in the tier listings)
GOAT tier
LBJ, MJ, KAJ

Legend Tier
Wilt, Russell, Duncan, Magic, Shaq

Top 10ish
Hakeem, Kobe, Bird

I think we would all agree that these 11 players are top 20 guys

Then, I have the 11-15 type guys, that I think HAVE TO BE top 20, at the minimum
West, Oscar, Moses, KG, Dr. J

So, that leaves 4 spots in the top 20-who would you put there as of today?

I have DRob, Curry, Dirk and KMalone-but it's tough. Plus, Luka/Giannis/Jokic are coming for top 20 (or top 10) spots in the future

I'm bringing up my list before I vote, but the obvious thing would've been to allow as many votes as there are options, instead of assuming a consensus on certain players. At a glance, I think you may have more than four of my Top 20 guys in the poll. If so, I'll be forced to vote for the highest ones. (Yup. I have six of the guys you listed in my 20.)

I did it the best I could, to try to get as many options in the poll as possible. If I had fewer "locks" that would leave fewer potential top 20 guys

pipfan wrote:

scrabbarista wrote:

pipfan wrote:This will be tough, but I will do my best to create a poll that works.
I have the legends of the game in tiers. Everyone might not exactly agree of course, but I think these players HAVE TO BE considered top 20 players (no order in the tier listings)
GOAT tier
LBJ, MJ, KAJ

Legend Tier
Wilt, Russell, Duncan, Magic, Shaq

Top 10ish
Hakeem, Kobe, Bird

I think we would all agree that these 11 players are top 20 guys

Then, I have the 11-15 type guys, that I think HAVE TO BE top 20, at the minimum
West, Oscar, Moses, KG, Dr. J

So, that leaves 4 spots in the top 20-who would you put there as of today?

I have DRob, Curry, Dirk and KMalone-but it's tough. Plus, Luka/Giannis/Jokic are coming for top 20 (or top 10) spots in the future

I'm bringing up my list before I vote, but the obvious thing would've been to allow as many votes as there are options, instead of assuming a consensus on certain players. At a glance, I think you may have more than four of my Top 20 guys in the poll. If so, I'll be forced to vote for the highest ones. (Yup. I have six of the guys you listed in my 20.)

I did it the best I could, to try to get as many options in the poll as possible. If I had fewer "locks" that would leave fewer potential top 20 guys

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. What I meant was that you should've allowed us to vote for more than four. It's not the numbers of guys in the poll that I was quibbling with, but the fact that I had to not vote for guys who are both in the poll and in my top twenty, because I was only able to vote for four. I had to not vote for Durant and Wade, even though they are in my top twenty, because there were four other guys in the poll who are higher in my top twenty. Anyways, it's no biggee!

I’d really like to know who the 4 that voted for Giannis are. 4 mvp level years and 2 all star years on top of that is not a long enough career to be top 20 after 70 years of competition.

My four were Curry, KD, Dirk and Karl Malone. I think probably only Karl and Dirk would be consensus locks on that list though. Curry may have the most votes but i seriously doubt every voter voted for four.

I mean, theres a tier that is just out of question, guys like MJ, KAJ, Kobe, Shaq, Lebron - but the rest? I wonder what the case would be to place KG, Barkley, even my hero Dirk ahead of Steph at this point. Seems more hate/agenda driven than rational tbh.

LesGrossman wrote:I mean, theres a tier that is just out of question, guys like MJ, KAJ, Kobe, Shaq, Lebron - but the rest? I wonder what the case would be to place KG, Barkley, even my hero Dirk ahead of Steph at this point. Seems more hate/agenda driven than rational tbh.

But, the point is that Curry could easily be consensus top 15 already-that's the point of the poll. I just think KG, Dr. J, Moses, Oscar and West would HAVE to be in the top 20. But, I can see arguments for Curry over some of those guys-I also know some don't rate Curry as a top 20 guy yet (although with his performance in these Finals, it might seal the deal).

Looks like there is a top 21, with my 16, then KD, DRob, Curry, KMalone, Dirk so far

pipfan wrote:

LesGrossman wrote:I mean, theres a tier that is just out of question, guys like MJ, KAJ, Kobe, Shaq, Lebron - but the rest? I wonder what the case would be to place KG, Barkley, even my hero Dirk ahead of Steph at this point. Seems more hate/agenda driven than rational tbh.

But, the point is that Curry could easily be consensus top 15 already-that's the point of the poll. I just think KG, Dr. J, Moses, Oscar and West would HAVE to be in the top 20.

But why? I simply cant see how KG has more of a case than Steph. I believe that there simply is some expectation about how an all time great player has to look. Steph, Dirk, Jokic, Nash, Luka those guys just dont fit the pattern everyone looks for. But if you just look at the body of work, the impact, the footprint on the league, the team record, the game planning...i came up with Shaq as the closest to Steph, ironically. Both are unique freaks of nature on their position, simply not guardable by single coverage, and they forced the whole league to game plan for them. Shaq forced rule changes; Steph caused the whole league to start thinking in completely different mindsets. Only 15 years ago, 95% of the shots that Steph takes routinely these days would have triggered an immediate benching in this league. Bad, sometimes terrible shot selection, contested chucking from way beyond the 3pt line with no rebounder in sight. Nowadays every team does it, even youth teams. What did KG do that is comparable, impact wise? He did nothing of this magnitude. He also doesnt have the trophies Steph has. I think KG is listed way higher than Steph because he is taller and noisier, not because he was the greater player overall.

70sFan wrote:I forgot about Mikan (as always), I have to reevaluate his career at some point. He probably should be inside top 20 though.

Mikan is a tough one for sure. My fourth tier cuts off at 19, so I'll give George the #20 spot, though I think there are at least a half dozen players who have a pretty good case in that 20-30 tier...

(p) = Five Season Peak (c) = Career

01 Jordan (pWS: 98.0 | pWS/48: .296 | cWS: 214.0 | cWS/48: .250 | 6 RNGZ)
02 LeBron (pWS: 88.0 | pWS/48: .296 | cWS: 249.5 | cWS/48: .230 | 4 RNGZ)
03 KAJ (pWS: 100.9 | pWS/48: .295 | cWS: 273.4 | cWS/48: .228 | 6 RNGZ)
04 Wilt (pWS: 104.9 | pWS/48: .272 | cWS: 247.3 | cWS/48: .248 | 2 RNGZ)

05 Duncan (pWS: 71.8 | pWS/48: .239 | cWS: 206.4 | cWS/48: .209 | 5 RNGZ)
06 Magic (pWS: 74.8 | pWS/48: .251 | cWS: 155.8 | cWS/48: .225 | 5 RNGZ)
07 Shaq (pWS: 69.0 | pWS/48: .260 | cWS: 181.7 | cWS/48: .208 | 4 RNGZ)
08 Larry (pWS: 75.3 | pWS/48: .237 | cWS: 145.8 | cWS/48: .203 | 3 RNGZ)

09 Oscar (pWS: 88.7 | pWS/48: .244 | cWS: 189.2 | cWS/48: .207 | 1 RNGZ)
10 Russell (pWS: 76.2 | pWS/48: .211 | cWS: 163.5 | cWS/48: .193 | 11 RNGZ)
11 Curry (pWS: 68.6 | pWS/48: .265 | cWS: 120.2 | cWS/48: .202 | 3 RNGZ)
12 Hakeem (pWS: 59.3 | pWS/48: .202 | cWS: 162.8 | cWS/48: .177 | 2 RNGZ)

13 Admiral (pWS: 82.7 | pWS/48: .263 | cWS: 178.7 | cWS/48: .250 | 2 RNGZ)
14 Dirk (pWS: 77.3 | pWS/48: .248 | cWS: 206.3 | cWS/48: .193 | 1 RNGZ)
15 Garnett (pWS: 77.7 | pWS/48: .236 | cWS: 191.4 | cWS/48: .182 | 1 RNGZ)
16 Durant (pWS: 69.4 | pWS/48: .282 | cWS: 155.2 | cWS/48: .216 | 2 RNGZ)
17 Erving (pWS: 73.1 | pWS/48: .220 | cWS: 181.1 | cWS/48: .192 | 3 RNGZ)
18 Kobe (pWS: 64.3 | pWS/48: .200 | cWS: 172.7 | cWS/48: .170 | 5 RNGZ)
19 West (pWS: 69.2 | pWS/48: .241 | cWS: 162.6 | cWS/48: .213 | 1 RNGZ)

20 Wade (pWS: 54.2 | pWS/48: .206 | cWS: 120.7 | cWS/48: .162 | 3 RNGZ)
21 Giannis (pWS: 60.6 | pWS/48: .258 | cWS: 87.5 | cWS/48: .197 | 1 RNGZ)
22 Kawhi (pWS: 46.4 | pWS/48: .249 | cWS: 83.3 | cWS/48: .222 | 2 RNGZ)
23 Barkley (pWS: 75.5 | pWS/48: .249 | cWS: 177.2 | cWS/48: .216 | 0 RNGZ)
24 Mailman (pWS: 73.1 | pWS/48: .252 | cWS: 234.5 | cWS/48: .205 | 0 RNGZ)
25 Paul (pWS: 69.9 | pWS/48: .263 | cWS: 198.9 | cWS/48: .239 | 0 RNGZ)
26 Stockton (pWS: 71.6 | pWS/48: .229 | cWS: 207.7 | cWS/48: .209 | 0 RNGZ)
27 Jokic (pWS: 63.2 | pWS/48: .248 | cWS: 79.6 | cWS/48: .239 | 0 RNGZ)
28 Moses (pWS: 70.2 | pWS/48: .209 | cWS: 179.1 | cWS/48: .174 | 1 RNGZ)
29 Frazier (pWS: 70.8 | pWS/48: .216 | cWS: 113.5 | cWS/48: .176 | 2 RNGZ)
30 Artis (pWS: 82.2 | pWS/48: .226 | cWS: 189.7 | cWS/48: .193 | 1 RNGZ)

So, just voted for:

Curry / Malone / Nowitzki / Robinson

As I did so, I strongly considered Durant and was not surprised that he was one of the Top 4 vote getters - I really don't have a problem with that...

Was surprised though that it was Karl Malone who was being squeezed out of the Top 4 though.

To be honest, I do see arguments for all 4 of the other guys over Malone, but that would represent a significant fall off for Malone from how he's generally been seen.

I potentially do not have all of those 11 in my top 20.

70sFan wrote:I forgot about Mikan (as always), I have to reevaluate his career at some point. He probably should be inside top 20 though.

I always think it's just so hard to rank Mikan compared to later players that, while I'm fine with him being in people's Top 20s, or pretty far out of their 20s.

His name did spring to mind for that "Other" option, but I was fine just going with the more modern guys.

As I say all of this, I'm feeling more of a pull to do something based on historical significance, because he's a GOAT candidate there and warrants being gushed about.

penbeast0 wrote:

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:Curry and KD are in my top 20. Less certain about KD than Curry. Curry might make my top 10 after the finals.

I'd put Malone in there too. I don't know whether Barkley/Robinson get in.

My top 20 is probably:

1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Wilt
6. Magic
7. Duncan
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe
11. KG
12. Bird
13. Curry
14. West
15. Robertson
16. Dirk
17. Malone
18. Erving
19. Durant
20. Barkley/Robinson

Which one?

Karl Malone

scrabbarista wrote:

pipfan wrote:

scrabbarista wrote:
I'm bringing up my list before I vote, but the obvious thing would've been to allow as many votes as there are options, instead of assuming a consensus on certain players. At a glance, I think you may have more than four of my Top 20 guys in the poll. If so, I'll be forced to vote for the highest ones. (Yup. I have six of the guys you listed in my 20.)

I did it the best I could, to try to get as many options in the poll as possible. If I had fewer "locks" that would leave fewer potential top 20 guys

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. What I meant was that you should've allowed us to vote for more than four. It's not the numbers of guys in the poll that I was quibbling with, but the fact that I had to not vote for guys who are both in the poll and in my top twenty, because I was only able to vote for four. I had to not vote for Durant and Wade, even though they are in my top twenty, because there were four other guys in the poll who are higher in my top twenty. Anyways, it's no biggee!

I think your biggest problem is you included Moses as a given top 20, which I don't think is a case and you didn't make Garnett or MIkan choices.
I think your first 11 is pretty solid, and "think" West, Oscar, and Doctor J are pretty much Top 20- but would make the cutoff there; there is no perfect cutoff, maybe only West is a given in Top 20.