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I’ve been thinking about this recently, and he seems to stand out like a sore thumb when compared to other top 15 players.

Three major issues:

• Below average longevity for an ATG
• Consistent dropoff in the playoffs
• Teams were not GOAT offenses

He’s a guy I very often see in top tens, sometimes top fives, but seems to be out of place.

I guess he would likely benefit from playing in the +/- era.

Probably Top 15 if you value longevity and are not high on his playoffs. I have Kobe and Bird almost tied on my list at #10 and #11. What keeps Bird in many peoples top 10s though is his great peak in ’86 ,3 mvps in a row and also his 80’s rivalry with Magic who many have as a top 5-7 player all-time.

I can see him the lowest at 19th spot.

The Karl Malone ranking: teens.

12 for me

His lacking longevity and pretty inconsistent play-off form gives room to push him below a couple of guys who stuck around longer but I do think it's important not to go too far and put him below players that were never comparable to prime Bird.

If you put a premium on longevity and don't look too much at play-off success you could get him to the mid to late teens probably.

There’s no reasonable case in my mind where he’s not top 15.

About 14th or 15th is as far as I can go with him at present (though Steph Curry could be bumping him in the next year for me; I doubt it'll happen this year, regardless how the finals round out this year).

Presently I have Bird sitting 12th on my ATL.

70sFan wrote:I can see him the lowest at 19th spot.

Why? Please explain and expound.

No-more-rings wrote:There’s no reasonable case in my mind where he’s not top 15.

Agreed. He's probably top 10 for me, in fact. Peak is far more important than counting stats and compiling stats.

Over a 9 year stretch, Larry Bird won 3 MVPs, came in 2nd 4 times, 3rd once and 4th once. Sheer dominance.

Larry Bird: 88(2), 87(3), 86(), 85(), 84(*), 83(2), 82(2), 81(2), 80(4) = 9 (3 MVPs) (4 2nd places)

Considering peak, he’s probably in the Top 10.

Good points though on longevity and he wasn’t the same come playoff time

But he was what made the 80s a Magic & Bird rivalry. Brought the league to new heights.

Plus without him in the top 10, that’ll leave Russel as the only Celtic , while the lakers have 6. If you count Lebron as well at least based on ESPN..


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No-more-rings wrote:There’s no reasonable case in my mind where he’s not top 15.

So out of Kobe, West, Steph, Garnett, Wade, Oscar and Durant, which 2 do you think have no reasonable case over Bird? To be clear I have Bird over most or all of those players but I do think someone could make a reasonable argument for any of them.

Dooley wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:There’s no reasonable case in my mind where he’s not top 15.

So out of Kobe, West, Steph, Garnett, Wade, Oscar and Durant, which 2 do you think have no reasonable case over Bird? To be clear I have Bird over most or all of those players but I do think someone could make a reasonable argument for any of them.

wade is a tough argument as his longevity is actually worse than bird, so you would need to consider him significatively better than larry

ceiling raiser wrote:I’ve been thinking about this recently, and he seems to stand out like a sore thumb when compared to other top 15 players.

Three major issues:

• Below average longevity for an ATG
• Consistent dropoff in the playoffs
• Teams were not GOAT offenses

He’s a guy I very often see in top tens, sometimes top fives, but seems to be out of place.

I guess he would likely benefit from playing in the +/- era.

I don't feel like the bolded matters at all. I mean sure that can be a nice cherry on top for guys who have reputations as offensive savants but I think most of those Boston offenses were near tops in the league. I looked it up and they did go from 19th to 2nd in ORtg in his rookie year along with many other years where they were top 3 while going against the Lakers and a couple other offenses that were sacrificing defense greatly to prop up their offense. I agree though that I'm a bit lower on Bird than I used to be. Whereas 5 years ago I saw him being more in the 5-8 range now I'd say 8-11.

falcolombardi wrote:

Dooley wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:There’s no reasonable case in my mind where he’s not top 15.

So out of Kobe, West, Steph, Garnett, Wade, Oscar and Durant, which 2 do you think have no reasonable case over Bird? To be clear I have Bird over most or all of those players but I do think someone could make a reasonable argument for any of them.

wade is a tough argument as his longevity is actually worse than bird, so you would need to consider him significatively better than larry

I think the argument for having Wade significantly above Bird would be a straightforward one - Wade's a much better playoff scorer while being in the same ballpark for longevity and a strong overall resume in his own right. Obviously there are other advantages that you can point to for Bird. But I could understand someone who wanted to make the case that Wade's playoff scoring outweighs Bird's passing, spacing, etc.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:

ceiling raiser wrote:I’ve been thinking about this recently, and he seems to stand out like a sore thumb when compared to other top 15 players.

Three major issues:

• Below average longevity for an ATG
• Consistent dropoff in the playoffs
• Teams were not GOAT offenses

He’s a guy I very often see in top tens, sometimes top fives, but seems to be out of place.

I guess he would likely benefit from playing in the +/- era.

I don't feel like the bolded matters at all. I mean sure that can be a nice cherry on top for guys who have reputations as offensive savants but I think most of those Boston offenses were near tops in the league. I looked it up and they did go from 19th to 2nd in ORtg in his rookie year along with many other years where they were top 3 while going against the Lakers and a couple other offenses that were sacrificing defense greatly to prop up their offense. I agree though that I'm a bit lower on Bird than I used to be. Whereas 5 years ago I saw him being more in the 5-8 range now I'd say 8-11.

i dont think lakers were sacrificing anythingh, they just happened to have a ton of talented offensive players (and kurt rambis, who is not the archetypical "sacrifice defense for offense" pkayer)

Cavsfansince84 wrote:

ceiling raiser wrote:I’ve been thinking about this recently, and he seems to stand out like a sore thumb when compared to other top 15 players.

Three major issues:

• Below average longevity for an ATG
• Consistent dropoff in the playoffs
• Teams were not GOAT offenses

He’s a guy I very often see in top tens, sometimes top fives, but seems to be out of place.

I guess he would likely benefit from playing in the +/- era.

I don't feel like the bolded matters at all. I mean sure that can be a nice cherry on top for guys who have reputations as offensive savants but I think most of those Boston offenses were near tops in the league. I looked it up and they did go from 19th to 2nd in ORtg in his rookie year along with many other years where they were top 3 while going against the Lakers and a couple other offenses that were sacrificing defense greatly to prop up their offense. I agree though that I'm a bit lower on Bird than I used to be. Whereas 5 years ago I saw him being more in the 5-8 range now I'd say 8-11.

So my issue is, Bird’s case as a top 10 player is predicated on GOAT level on offense, right?

We don’t have any real +/- data from the 80s (outside of numbers against the Sixers from Pollack and some of the tracking Squared2020 has done), so team level ORtg (and for defenders) DRtg is probably the best metric we have to evaluate players (I guess WOWY too? I have been out of the loop a bit, but I remember Ben put together a list a while ago).

falcolombardi wrote:
i dont think lakers were sacrificing anythingh, they just happened to have a ton of talented offensive players (and kurt rambis, who is not the archetypical "sacrifice defense for offense" pkayer)

I wasn't referring to the Lakers though. More the Nuggets, Jazz and maybe someone else. They were giving up like 115-120ppg.

ceiling raiser wrote:So my issue is, Bird’s case as a top 10 player is predicated on GOAT level on offense, right?

We don’t have any real +/- data from the 80s (outside of numbers against the Sixers from Pollack and some of the tracking Squared2020 has done), so team level ORtg (and for defenders) DRtg is probably the best metric we have to evaluate players (I guess WOWY too? I have been out of the loop a bit, but I remember Ben put together a list a while ago).

I'm not sure about that either. I feel like offense is part of it but its just his overall package and his overall team success and being top 3 in mvp voting I think every year of his prime plus just being such a key part of reinvigorating the league.

Anything outside of top 10 is baffling to me personally