Trying to revamp my top 25 list: How do you rank David Robinson, Moses Malone and Patrick Ewing?

[wojoaderge]

I agree its Robinson > Malone > Ewing. It's a shame that we only really scrutinize the Top 10 and we constantly rehash it, spots 11-30 are much more difficult and much more interesting to rank IMO.

Hey, is Elvin Hayes a Center?

Wes Unseld said he was, but that would make Wes a PF

[Ginoboleee]

I agree its Robinson > Malone > Ewing. It's a shame that we only really scrutinize the Top 10 and we constantly rehash it, spots 11-30 are much more difficult and much more interesting to rank IMO.

Hey, is Elvin Hayes a Center?

Wes Unseld said he was, but that would make Wes a PF

I guess we can't look back and say they were playing 2 centers?
Was Sampson a PF with "Akeem"?

[wojoaderge]

Hey, is Elvin Hayes a Center?

Wes Unseld said he was, but that would make Wes a PF

I guess we can't look back and say they were playing 2 centers?
Was Sampson a PF with "Akeem"?

Really, you can say whatever you want. This isn't baseball or even football

[Ginoboleee]

Wes Unseld said he was, but that would make Wes a PF

I guess we can't look back and say they were playing 2 centers?
Was Sampson a PF with "Akeem"?

Really, you can say whatever you want. This isn't baseball or even football

So, if I am following you then I guess you just changed your mind, and that Wes is now not a PF?

[wojoaderge]

I guess we can't look back and say they were playing 2 centers?
Was Sampson a PF with "Akeem"?

Really, you can say whatever you want. This isn't baseball or even football

So, if I am following you then I guess you just changed your mind, and that Wes is now not a PF?

If you're asking me for my gun-to-the-head opinion, Unseld was the C and Hayes was the PF. The Big E was a center on the San Diego Rockets

[ShotCreator]

I don’t ever ponder all-time lists but there were not 20 better players than David Robinson.

[falcolombardi]

I don’t ever ponder all-time lists but there were not 20 better players than David Robinson.

Mmm,there is at least am argument for it

Mikan, Russel, wilt, oscar, west, kareem, julius, walton, magic, bird,jordan,hakeem, shaq,kobe, duncan, garnett, lebron, curry, wade,giannis, jokic, etc

[Ginoboleee]

I don’t ever ponder all-time lists but there were not 20 better players than David Robinson.

Perhaps this was just in jest, a tongue-in-cheek half-truth.

But if it is not, then (the noob says) I am getting really confused.

I hear we are supposed to minimize our unsubstantiated opinions, maximize the clarity of our criteria and corresponding analysis.

Maybe I was wrong in that expectation?

Meanwhile, regarding David Robinson, perhaps there is an argument to made regarding a Peak Season or two, but regarding both Prime and Longevity and Accolades there are certainly more than 20 better players. But I'm a noob, without stats to back it up, so what do I know lol.

[tsherkin]

Hey, is Elvin Hayes a Center? If Hayes had a better Public Relations Department this would be a lot closer than you think regarding Ewing/Hayes 8th/9th center of all time. And hopefully, about ten years from now, Jokic will pass by both Hayes and Ewing. (And we are continuing to pretend that Tim Duncan is not a center, right? Just checking.)

Eew.

Dreadful volume scorer, inefficient even for era. Not a good passer. Little to suggest he was anything like the defensive force of Ewing. Not sure how he enters this conversation.

[Ginoboleee]

Hey, is Elvin Hayes a Center? If Hayes had a better Public Relations Department this would be a lot closer than you think regarding Ewing/Hayes 8th/9th center of all time. And hopefully, about ten years from now, Jokic will pass by both Hayes and Ewing. (And we are continuing to pretend that Tim Duncan is not a center, right? Just checking.)

Eew.

Dreadful volume scorer, inefficient even for era. Not a good passer. Little to suggest he was anything like the defensive force of Ewing. Not sure how he enters this conversation.

Oops?
I was just trying to think fast about who would be 9th without immediately pointing to more famous players or current stars.

[tsherkin]

Hey, is Elvin Hayes a Center? If Hayes had a better Public Relations Department this would be a lot closer than you think regarding Ewing/Hayes 8th/9th center of all time. And hopefully, about ten years from now, Jokic will pass by both Hayes and Ewing. (And we are continuing to pretend that Tim Duncan is not a center, right? Just checking.)

Eew.

Dreadful volume scorer, inefficient even for era. Not a good passer. Little to suggest he was anything like the defensive force of Ewing. Not sure how he enters this conversation.

Oops?
I was just trying to think fast about who would be 9th without immediately pointing to more famous players or current stars.

Haha, fair.

[wojoaderge]

Hey, is Elvin Hayes a Center? If Hayes had a better Public Relations Department this would be a lot closer than you think regarding Ewing/Hayes 8th/9th center of all time. And hopefully, about ten years from now, Jokic will pass by both Hayes and Ewing. (And we are continuing to pretend that Tim Duncan is not a center, right? Just checking.)

Eew.

Dreadful volume scorer, inefficient even for era. Not a good passer. Little to suggest he was anything like the defensive force of Ewing. Not sure how he enters this conversation.

Oops?
I was just trying to think fast about who would be 9th without immediately pointing to more famous players or current stars.

Stick to your guns

[Owly]

I don’t ever ponder all-time lists but there were not 20 better players than David Robinson.

Perhaps this was just in jest, a tongue-in-cheek half-truth.

But if it is not, then (the noob says) I am getting really confused.

I hear we are supposed to minimize our unsubstantiated opinions, maximize the clarity of our criteria and corresponding analysis.

Maybe I was wrong in that expectation?

Meanwhile, regarding David Robinson, perhaps there is an argument to made regarding a Peak Season or two, but regarding both Prime and Longevity and Accolades there are certainly more than 20 better players. But I'm a noob, without stats to back it up, so what do I know lol.

What a person means by "not 20 better players" is ambiguous.

And it's a fairly definitive statement that wasn't supported with evidence, so yes just given as an opinion.

Still you've looked at the RealGM lists. Check there for detailed reasoning.

Last time 17, previously 18, 18 (lower in '11 probably real terms lower in earlier lists accounting for new arrivals), whilst voter pool isn't everyone here at the time and the people here at the time change there's the three most recent samplings that had had him at least circa top 20 (they could, especially the two older lists, see his rank hit by climbers).

As I said see voting but as a sampling
elite box composite prime
elite impact metrics in databall era (whilst many have him notionally post-prime)
elite playoff impact metrics in databall era (whilst many have him notionally post-prime)
elite on-off in 94-96 *
strong signs of impact on arrival and in absences (noisy)

*=

for Robinson we've got on-off to an extent (not full play-by-play) for 94-96, numbers per estimated 100 possessions [have previously written this as per 48 minutes, it isn't, it's adjusted for team pace]

94: on +9.4, net 19.9, off -10.5
95: on +10.7, net 19.8, off -9.1
96: on+10.7, net 16.6, off -5.9
net leader 94, 95; 2nd to Penny '96

If one were generous and included the tiny in sample '97 season that's four straight years with an on-off north of 16.5, and 3 of 4 north of 19. If one didn't include '97 ... 3 years ... LeBron 15-17 is super close. Garnett has 2 years north of 19 (north of 20). Caveats: Maybe there are [more?] precedents, consecutiveness doesn't really matter to me, limited to databall era, noisy measure etc. Still (a) I think there's evidence of huge Robinson impact, (b) that run is kinda live on the front end because we don't have '93 data.

Even stuff like MVP shares (which I don't care about, being a very indirect measure and poor for comparing across eras with different voting systems) (15th), doesn't seem to obviously counteract top 20. Ben "ElGee" Taylor's 2017 Backpicks top 40 had him 15. So it doesn't seem like a wild take there, either. Heck Kevin Pelton (some time ago) seemed to put him above O'Neal and Olajuwon.

I don't have a consistent, watertight criteria/process that I'm happy with. Criteria can vary (and mine is lower weighting of playoffs than many - though cf above re databall playoff impact). There have been a lot of great players. But I can certainly see a case that only saying top 20 is erring conservative.

[euroleague]

Moses 12
DRob 13
Ewing 23

[Purch]

Moses is a really intense case, because he's one of only a handful if players to achieve 3 Mvp's (2 in back to back seasons) Yet a lot of time his rankings don't reflect that.

[Ginoboleee]

Moses is a really intense case, because he's one of only a handful if players to achieve 3 Mvp's (2 in back to back seasons) Yet a lot of time his rankings don't reflect that.

Exactly.
And he was the best player on a Top 5 Greatest Team Ever too.
It's why I said he is probably the most underrated ATG.
What a Kareem Stopper too.
Too bad he hung on all those extra years, and lost his allure with a whole cohort of fans.

[Purch]

Moses is a really intense case, because he's one of only a handful if players to achieve 3 Mvp's (2 in back to back seasons) Yet a lot of time his rankings don't reflect that.

Exactly.
And he was the best player on a Top 5 Greatest Team Ever too.
It's why I said he is probably the most underrated ATG.
What a Kareem Stopper too.
Too bad he hung on all those extra years, and lost his allure with a whole cohort of fans.

Part of me thinks he was retroactively devalued due to his focus on offensive rebounding. I think the analytics crowds have determined that its more helpful for your team to get back on defense than fighting for offensive boards. Similar to the way a lot of primarily mid range scorers have been devalued compared to their modern day 3 point counterparts

[Ginoboleee]

Moses is a really intense case, because he's one of only a handful if players to achieve 3 Mvp's (2 in back to back seasons) Yet a lot of time his rankings don't reflect that.

Exactly.
And he was the best player on a Top 5 Greatest Team Ever too.
It's why I said he is probably the most underrated ATG.
What a Kareem Stopper too.
Too bad he hung on all those extra years, and lost his allure with a whole cohort of fans.

Part of me thinks he was retroactively devalued due to his focus on offensive rebounding. I think the analytics crowds have determined that its more helpful for your team to get back on defense than fighting for offensive boards. Similar to the way a lot of primarily mid range scorers have been devalued compared to their modern day 3 point counterparts

As much as I agree with the first half of what you said about analytics/Offensive Rebounds/baseball's RBI's lol (100%), that's nothing compared to how much I agree with the second half of what you said about mid-range magicians (1000%).

[Purch]

Exactly.
And he was the best player on a Top 5 Greatest Team Ever too.
It's why I said he is probably the most underrated ATG.
What a Kareem Stopper too.
Too bad he hung on all those extra years, and lost his allure with a whole cohort of fans.

Part of me thinks he was retroactively devalued due to his focus on offensive rebounding. I think the analytics crowds have determined that its more helpful for your team to get back on defense than fighting for offensive boards. Similar to the way a lot of primarily mid range scorers have been devalued compared to their modern day 3 point counterparts

As much as I agree with the first half of what you said about analytics/Offensive Rebounds/baseball's RBI's lol (100%), that's nothing compared to how much I agree with the second half of what you said about mid-range magicians (1000%).

When I make my rankings I try to judge players within the context of how the game was played In their eras. For example I value post defense extremely highly in the 80', 90' and 00's because of the amount of great post scorers who controlled their teams offense. If you were a great help defender but weren't a great post defender in that era you lose point for me. However, in today's nba if you're a great post defender, it still matters, but not nearly as much since most teams aren't running their offenses through dominant post up big men. However, the bugs who can rotate and blow up pick and rolls are extremely valuable today.

And that's kind of how I do to every player. For players who were Iso/mid range domaint players in the 00's I judge them within the context of how the game was played in the 2000's.

[ardee]

Robinson 17.
Ewing and Moses are close by each other in the 23-25 range.

Neither had very developed all-around games but did one thing really really darn well (Ewing: rim protection, Moses: rebounding).