Trying to revamp my top 25 list: How do you rank David Robinson, Moses Malone and Patrick Ewing?

[JordansBulls]

Wow Moses now in the 20's with 3 league mvp's?

Doesn't seem that surprising and its not like he added much to his legacy after 83 when he was only like 28. He came in at 20th in 2017 and 19th in 2014 in board top 100's.

What other player with 3 league mvp's isn't top 20? It's like asking what other player with 4 league mvp's isn't top 10?

[Cavsfansince84]

What other player with 3 league mvp's isn't top 20? It's like asking what other player with 4 league mvp's isn't top 10?

Mvps can't be the end all be all of anything though imo. For more reasons than one. They are nice and all but there's other things which take precedence. As good as Moses was from about 79-83 when he won those mvps I'd say his prime probably ended by 87 when he was only 31 and I'm not sure more than a few of his seasons really stand out compared to other guys in the top 20-25. The early 80's was kind of weak in terms of top end seasons. Kareem's prime ended in 81 and Magic and Bird didn't fully hit stride until about 84 so it sort of left just Dr. J and Moses as stars in their primes.

[Ginoboleee]

What other player with 3 league mvp's isn't top 20? It's like asking what other player with 4 league mvp's isn't top 10?

Mvps can't be the end all be all of anything though imo. For more reasons than one. They are nice and all but there's other things which take precedence. As good as Moses was from about 79-83 when he won those mvps I'd say his prime probably ended by 87 when he was only 31 and I'm not sure more than a few of his seasons really stand out compared to other guys in the top 20-25. The early 80's was kind of weak in terms of top end seasons. Kareem's prime ended in 81 and Magic and Bird didn't fully hit stride until about 84 so it sort of left just Dr. J and Moses as stars in their primes.

Simplistic MVP Counting is almost as silly as Simplistic Ring Counting? Good point. But on the margin it can help us, no? Like as a tiebreaker of sorts? Or should it be excluded entirely? weighted very weakly? Whatever your answer here it will be interesting.

And Moses' prime was relatively short? Fair enough. I don't agree. But it's a perfectly reasonable interpretation.

But the idea that somehow 82, 83, and 84 were relatively weak years for HOF talent, and that "well somebody had to win" sort of fell into the lap of Erving and Moses who just happened to be in the right place at the right time?!?! While this might have more than a grain of truth in it, it also sounds unfair, misleading, and in the grand scheme of things actually wrong.

Unless, of course, you are right lol, whereupon we should come up with a measure to weight each season against each other.
That way certain seasons' accomplishment count for relatively little (like maybe how you see Moses), and other seasons' accomplishments count for much more (like a bunch of us see MJ, and maybe others see LeGM, who knows, let's find out!?!).

[Cavsfansince84]

Simplistic MVP Counting is almost as silly as Simplistic Ring Counting? Good point. But on the margin it can help us, no? Like as a tiebreaker of sorts? Or should it be excluded entirely? weighted very weakly? Whatever your answer here it will be interesting.

And Moses' prime was relatively short? Fair enough. I don't agree. But it's a perfectly reasonable interpretation.

But the idea that somehow 82, 83, and 84 were relatively weak years for HOF talent, and that "well somebody had to win" sort of fell into the lap of Erving and Moses who just happened to be in the right place at the right time?!?! While this might have more than a grain of truth in it, it also sounds unfair, misleading, and in the grand scheme of things actually wrong.

Unless, of course, you are right lol, whereupon we should come up with a measure to weight each season against each other.
That way certain seasons' accomplishment count for relatively little (like maybe how you see Moses), and other seasons' accomplishments count for much more (like a bunch of us see MJ, and maybe others see LeGM, who knows, let's find out!?!).

I think it shows that for a stretch of years Moses was a very dominant player in the league. I don't diminish it that much in how I view him as a player but outside of 83 & 81 his teams didn't really do much. So idk how convinced I am with Moses as a franchise player compared to some of the other guys in the top 25 despite the 3 mvps. Its also worth noting that usually mvp also carries a connotation of playing on very good teams but as I already referenced, two of his came on sub 50 win teams. I sort of wish we had rapm data for his years for more insight. Moses was great and I'm actually sort of high on him in some ways but not as high as some. I think of him in the 20-22 range.

[Ginoboleee]

Simplistic MVP Counting is almost as silly as Simplistic Ring Counting? Good point. But on the margin it can help us, no? Like as a tiebreaker of sorts? Or should it be excluded entirely? weighted very weakly? Whatever your answer here it will be interesting.

And Moses' prime was relatively short? Fair enough. I don't agree. But it's a perfectly reasonable interpretation.

But the idea that somehow 82, 83, and 84 were relatively weak years for HOF talent, and that "well somebody had to win" sort of fell into the lap of Erving and Moses who just happened to be in the right place at the right time?!?! While this might have more than a grain of truth in it, it also sounds unfair, misleading, and in the grand scheme of things actually wrong.

Unless, of course, you are right lol, whereupon we should come up with a measure to weight each season against each other.
That way certain seasons' accomplishment count for relatively little (like maybe how you see Moses), and other seasons' accomplishments count for much more (like a bunch of us see MJ, and maybe others see LeGM, who knows, let's find out!?!).

I think it shows that for a stretch of years Moses was a very dominant player in the league. I don't diminish it that much in how I view him as a player but outside of 83 & 81 his teams didn't really do much. So idk how convinced I am with Moses as a franchise player compared to some of the other guys in the top 25 despite the 3 mvps. Its also worth noting that usually mvp also carries a connotation of playing on very good teams but as I already referenced, two of his came on sub 50 win teams. I sort of wish we had rapm data for his years for more insight. Moses was great and I'm actually sort of high on him in some ways but not as high as some. I think of him in the 20-22 range.

Thanks.
Lots of food for thought.
I think Moses might be getting nudged down next time for me - but I have him crazy high (young teenager rank).

[penbeast0]

...

Hey, is Elvin Hayes a Center? If Hayes had a better Public Relations Department this would be a lot closer than you think regarding Ewing/Hayes 8th/9th center of all time. And hopefully, about ten years from now, Jokic will pass by both Hayes and Ewing. (And we are continuing to pretend that Tim Duncan is not a center, right? Just checking.)

They were listed the other way, probably because Wes was the incumbent center when Hayes joined the Bullets. But, in terms of in era playstyle, Hayes fit the stereotype center and Unseld the stereotype PF profile better. Offensively, which one set up in the post and which one ran around doing the dirty work and scoring mainly off putbacks and a flat footed foul line jumper. Defensively which one was the rim protector and which one the enforcer (though Hayes was a pretty decent enforcer type). For that matter, which one was taller (though Unseld was heavier). I don't think it matter unless you are ranking top C's or top PF's.

As for great bigs, unless you have Artis Gilmore above Ewing, he's certainly a contender for the "better than Hayes, not as good as Ewing" spot.

[Ginoboleee]

...

Hey, is Elvin Hayes a Center? If Hayes had a better Public Relations Department this would be a lot closer than you think regarding Ewing/Hayes 8th/9th center of all time. And hopefully, about ten years from now, Jokic will pass by both Hayes and Ewing. (And we are continuing to pretend that Tim Duncan is not a center, right? Just checking.)

They were listed the other way, probably because Wes was the incumbent center when Hayes joined the Bullets. But, in terms of in era playstyle, Hayes fit the stereotype center and Unseld the stereotype PF profile better. Offensively, which one set up in the post and which one ran around doing the dirty work and scoring mainly off putbacks and a flat footed foul line jumper. Defensively which one was the rim protector and which one the enforcer (though Hayes was a pretty decent enforcer type). For that matter, which one was taller (though Unseld was heavier). I don't think it matter unless you are ranking top C's or top PF's.

As for great bigs, unless you have Artis Gilmore above Ewing, he's certainly a contender for the "better than Hayes, not as good as Ewing" spot.

I certainly have Gilmore in my Top 100, because I greatly value ABA too.

I am a (heart-broken) Ewing fan, but a (painful) truth-teller, so I do tend to have him lower than most folks.

I am working on PFs now, so yeah, I was interested.

Thanks for the great historical context on that Bullets team - it was JUST right before my time.