RealGM

Peak only, how would you rank them from 1-4?

kawhi > durant > paul > nash

thinking less so about how much total value they added in their best season and more just how good they were at their best form

jalengreen wrote:kawhi > durant > paul > nash

thinking less so about how much total value they added in their best season and more just how good they were at their best form

This is probably how I'd do it as well. Kawhi in the 2017 playoffs was incredible. I just wish he hadn't gotten injured so we see how that plays out but KD probably second due to unstoppable offense with decent defense and CP3 ahead of Nash due to defense though CP3 ahead of KD also seems possible.

Many don’t like to admit it, but Kawhi is a better playoff performer than KD.

No-more-rings wrote:Many don’t like to admit it, but Kawhi is a better playoff performer than KD.

Kawhi is arguably a top 10 playoff performer of all time.

He was the best player in the 2021 playoffs before he got injured imo.

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:Many don’t like to admit it, but Kawhi is a better playoff performer than KD.

Kawhi is arguably a top 10 playoff performer of all time.

He was the best player in the 2021 playoffs before he got injured imo.

The first part i’d have to think about. The 2nd part is true, his main flaw to me is his crappy durabilty.

Durant
Paul
Kawhi
Nash

I think Kawhi's box numbers severely overstate his impact, not only is his scoring significantly inflated by some of his first round matchups(like see how much that Grizzlies series in 2017 boosted his numbers and they didn't have Tony Allen), alot of his offense also involves ball stopping and 'dantleying' as people call it and i'm just not seeing how he is really generating some all-time offense.

I think some of it is the reason why his fit with PG seemed suspect despite how it should've looked decent on paper(the other Clippers really could not get into a rhythm with how selective he is).

I'd also say he is a mediocre creator relative to other people around his level and his defensive quality has significantly waned since 2016, his defense in the 2019 finals for example was just not that great. (You may argue injuries slowing him down but it's happened literally every year after 2017 later in a run)

Still clearly one of the best playoff performers ever and i'd be fine if someone ranked him #1 out of this group, but I think he is very far away from being top-10 for example. Maybe i'm just seeing something different when I watch him than everyone else.

Durant - kawhi - - - Paul - Nash

I honestly wouldnt be mad at any order for these players interesting prompt. Would have to think about it more.

kawhi vs dursnt is tricky because kawhi offense peak is not far off durant

but kawhi defense peak was when he was not nearly as good offensively, he is a much more mundane strong defender ever since his injury

durant peak defense may not be as far off overall peak kawhi defense as you would think

Kawhi / Nash / Durant / Paul

Falcolombardi makes a great point that Kawhi's defensive and offensive peak do not intersect.

I'm not comfortable brushing aside Kawhi's injuries the way others are. He's gotten hurt multiple times in the post-season. He's missed substantial time in a lot of RSs. That means Kawhi, whatever you consider the best version of him, raises the significant possibility of your team coming in with a low seed or him not being able to make it through the post-season.

To put it another way durability does matter.

No-more-rings wrote:

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:Many don’t like to admit it, but Kawhi is a better playoff performer than KD.

Kawhi is arguably a top 10 playoff performer of all time.

He was the best player in the 2021 playoffs before he got injured imo.

The first part i’d have to think about. The 2nd part is true, his main flaw to me is his crappy durabilty.

Kawhi is 18th in career postseason Win Shares, but 4th in career postseason WS/48, so on a per minute basis he's got a very solid case, but on an all time basis his durability holds him back some.

As to OP my order would be Durant by a hair over Kawhi then a pretty sizable gap down to Paul above Nash.

Could Durant have done what Kawhi did in 2019. I say no, and it's not just about team fit.

I'd only Durant only above Nash in this group. I think Durant is overrated and I could be talked into putting him closer to players like Ewing and Barry on the ATL than greats like Curry, Dirk or Kobe.

This should be two separate conversations, Durant vs Kawhi and Nash vs Paul. They don't belong to same tier.
Durant
Kawhi

Paul
Nash
Imo...

sp6r=underrated wrote:Falcolombardi makes a great point that Kawhi's defensive and offensive peak do not intersect.

I'm not comfortable brushing aside Kawhi's injuries the way others are. He's gotten hurt multiple times in the post-season. He's missed substantial time in a lot of RSs. That means Kawhi, whatever you consider the best version of him, raises the significant possibility of your team coming in with a low seed or him not being able to make it through the post-season.

To put it another way durability does matter.

Yeah, I would say these are the candidates for each player's peak seasons with my choice for each bolded. Even among four players with injury/durability issues at various points, the Kawhi seasons still really stand out for lack of volume...

Durant 12-13: 28.3 rPER | .647 rTS% | 18.9 rWS | .291 rWS/48
Durant 12-13: 26.0 pPER | .574 pTS% | 2.1 pWS | .210 pWS/48

Durant 13-14: 29.8 rPER | .635 rTS% | 19.2 rWS | .295 rWS/48
Durant 13-14: 22.6 pPER | .570 pTS% | 2.5 pWS | .145 pWS/48

Durant 16-17: 27.6 rPER | .651 rTS% | 12.0 rWS | .278 rWS/48
Durant 16-17: 27.5 pPER | .683 pTS% | 3.1 pWS | .280 pWS/48

Kawhi 15-16: 26.0 rPER | .616 rTS% | 13.7 rWS | .277 rWS/48
Kawhi 15-16: 28.6 pPER | .597 pTS% | 1.9 pWS | .271 pWS/48

Kawhi 16-17: 27.6 rPER | .610 rTS% | 13.6 rWS | .264 rWS/48
Kawhi 16-17: 31.5 pPER | .672 pTS% | 2.8 pWS | .314 pWS/48

Kawhi 18-19: 25.8 rPER | .606 rTS% | 9.5 rWS | .224 rWS/48
Kawhi 18-19: 27.9 pPER | .616 pTS% | 4.9 pWS | .249 pWS/48

Paul 07-08: 28.3 rPER | .576 rTS% | 17.8 rWS | .284 rWS/48
Paul 07-08: 30.7 pPER | .565 pTS% | 2.9 pWS | .289 pWS/48

Paul 12-13: 26.4 rPER | .594 rTS% | 13.9 rWS | .287 rWS/48
Paul 12-13: 29.2 pPER | .633 pTS% | 1.2 pWS | .267 pWS/48

Paul 14-15: 26.0 rPER | .596 rTS% | 16.1 rWS | .270 rWS/48
Paul 14-15: 25.7 pPER | .627 pTS% | 2.3 pWS | .248 pWS/48

Nash 04-05: 22.0 rPER | .606 rTS% | 10.9 rWS | .203 rWS/48
Nash 04-05: 23.4 pPER | .604 pTS% | 2.1 pWS | .164 pWS/48

Nash 05-06: 23.3 rPER | .632 rTS% | 12.4 rWS | .212 rWS/48
Nash 05-06: 21.3 pPER | .615 pTS% | 2.6 pWS | .153 pWS/48

Nash 06-07: 23.8 rPER | .654 rTS% | 12.6 rWS | .225 rWS/48
Nash 06-07: 21.9 pPER | .577 pTS% | 1.4 pWS | .165 pWS/48

Mrakar wrote:This should be two separate conversations, Durant vs Kawhi and Nash vs Paul. They don't belong to same tier.
Durant
Kawhi

Paul
Nash
Imo...

Why do you believe they should be considered separate tiers?

jalengreen wrote:kawhi > durant > paul > nash

thinking less so about how much total value they added in their best season and more just how good they were at their best form

I think I have the same order, but it is very close.

kawhi => durant > paul => nash

Proxy wrote:I think Kawhi's box numbers severely overstate his impact, not only is his scoring significantly inflated by some of his first round matchups(like see how much that Grizzlies series in 2017 boosted his numbers and they didn't have Tony Allen), alot of his offense also involves ball stopping and 'dantleying' as people call it and i'm just not seeing how he is really generating some all-time offense.

I think some of it is the reason why his fit with PG seemed suspect despite how it should've looked decent on paper(the other Clippers really could not get into a rhythm with how selective he is).

I'd also say he is a mediocre creator relative to other people around his level and his defensive quality has significantly waned since 2016, his defense in the 2019 finals for example was just not that great. (You may argue injuries slowing him down but it's happened literally every year after 2017 later in a run)

Still clearly one of the best playoff performers ever and i'd be fine if someone ranked him #1 out of this group, but I think he is very far away from being top-10 for example. Maybe i'm just seeing something different when I watch him than everyone else.

Nah. In 2017 Kawhi was so hot and his dynamic in his attempts to score, he was making David Lee/Gasol/Aldridge/Dedmon frontcourts, and lineups with guys like Parker and Anderson, lethal.


His insanity had Pop getting away with playing mid-00’s double big, post-up ball with space and pace era efficiency. I think defensively they were fine. And in general I think big lineups are not even close to unplayable.

But offensively I will compare Kawhi’s impact to Peak Jordan and peak Chris Paul. In what he was doing and how.


There is a way to consume tons of possessions(I won’t say Kawhi didn’t have an off-ball game either, he clearly did and it was much better than CP3’s and possibly better than Jordan’s overall), and not actually shrink the ability of the guys around you and their games.

And it’s really about timing. Kawhi would not manipulate possessions. He would take the garbage and gunk possessions at the end of the clock and after LA gets his post/up, Manu takes his slow drive in the lane, after Parker kicks it out, and turn it into extremely efficient offense.

Jordan actually did let the triangle run itself until the 4th, the ball was just naturally gonna cycle back to him anyway. He was smart enough to trust the cycle.

Kawhi was basically taking the most difficult shots in the offense and turning them into efficient possessions. Really he was so hot he was turning into GOATed offense. Kawhi started off his playoff runs from 17-20 just unthinkably hot off the dribble. And he’d usually slow down due to fatigue and injuries. In 2017 he really never slowed down.

Basically SA, ran their offense. Kawhi learned how to dictate without throwing the structure away.

These are subtleties I don’t think Durant ever truly learned. Not even in GS. Durant’s true game is to basically be a James Harden that is much more inclined to shoot than pass, style-wise. He was a ball dominator his entire career save for 2017 and half of 2018. I find Kawhi’s decision making to be better than Durant’s, and I find his body to be way more built for the physicality of elite defense.

Also, Tony Allen was not that guy in 2017. Better than Vince Carter, sure, but Tony was done anyway. I don’t see him keeping up with Kawhi physically by that point.

Antithesis of guys who trust teammates enough to just get the ball and be decisive: Most Giannis seasons, most Durant seasons, Luka, LeBron.

Some of those guys don’t have the skill to make a 7 second triple threat situation optimal, but it still stands.

Kawhi’s impact in that stretch was just no gimmick to me.

I simply do not believe Durant was ever better than Chris Paul at basketball so this becomes easy to rank on peaks.

Kawhi
Paul
Nash
Durant