How do you rank these 6 point guards all time? Kidd, Stockton, Paul, Nash,Isiah and Payton?

[Owly]

2. Isaiah Thomas: You guys are seriously underrating Isaiah Thomas won two titles as the unquestioned best player on his team as a true point without being 6'9 in the 80's. Don't over think this. No one else on this list can say that.

1) This is the Boston guard spelling (OP did this in opening but not title).
2) Leaving aside snark on the "no one else [did an achievement which includes] without being 6'9 in the 80's" ... threshold stuff is doable with most players, especially within a small group.
3) He simply isn't the unquestioned best player on the team. Not on accolades by that point in time, not on boxscore composites by that time (can't speak to more cutting edge stuff), not on the limited career impact-y stats we have (WoWY), nor I suspect on defense which some of the other measures might miss out on. He's the biggest star name and he's the most productive player in the '90 playoff run. I'm inclined to think Dumars, Rodman and perhaps Laimbeer may all have claims as best/biggest contributors to those teams (more so after neutralizing for the fact that only Isiah doesn't really have a natural backup). I believe I'm not the only one who questions it. Even if you think it's clear, "unquestioned" (without caveats, framing) is poor choice.

But I don't need another Isiah holy war so unless something new and interesting comes up I'll leave it there.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think Nash is actually really hard to rank.

There’s a lot of statistical evidence that Nash was one of the greatest offensive players in the history of the NBA. Indeed, his teams had the highest offensive efficiency in the league something like 9 years in a row. That’s on different teams, with different teammates, and different coaches—so it was a pretty natural experiment. One could say that that’s partly because he played on offensively-minded rosters, and that’d be true to some degree, but no one has come close to that kind of streak, despite many great players playing with even better offensive players than Nash did. It’s super impressive and would indicate a player who should be ranked ahead of all the players listed in this thread.

That said, I think there’s perhaps an argument that that was a result of a perfect storm of being at the forefront of strategic shifts in the game. In the era that was Nash’s prime, teams absolutely were playing woefully suboptimal offensive styles. They should’ve been shooting way more threes, and people just didn’t know it. In a lot of those years, Nash’s teams pushed the boundaries on this, shooting more threes than other teams. So there’s an argument that his teams’ unprecedented offensive efficiency was more about being at the cutting edge of the move to optimize the game strategically, rather than being about he himself being so good. In other words, maybe he wouldn’t be having consistently elite offenses if he played in today’s NBA where there’s more of a strategic equilibrium and he wouldn’t have a strategy advantage over every other team.

All that said, Nash’s streak included a year with Shaq, where the Suns really didn’t play a fast pace or shoot many threes. So I tend to think the better explanation is that he just was an absolutely elite playmaker.

With that said, here’s my ranking:

1. Steve Nash - See above. There’s an argument for ranking him lower (see above), but I don’t think I can take any of these other guys over someone who basically guaranteed the #1 offense in the league in his prime. Also the only one on here to win an MVP award (and he won it twice).

2. Chris Paul - He’s just a statistically superior player to the others on this list, in terms of efficiency. The low number of turnovers is freakish. The big knock on him on all-time lists is lack of playoff success, but no one on this list won a title except Isiah.

3. Isiah Thomas - I’d rank him last or second to last without the titles. He was a woefully inefficient shooter, but I can’t ignore that he got two titles (and almost another one) as the best player on his team, and therefore had much more success than anyone else on this list.

4. John Stockton - An amazing passer and efficient scorer, who was actually a good defender as well. While he doesn’t have a title, his two finals appearances are as many or more than anyone on this list but Isiah, and he had to face MJ.

5. Gary Payton - I don’t really have any knock on him, except that there’s just things about the other guys that I like more. Great player, particularly on defense, but I just didn’t consider him to be quite the same level of player as I considered the ones above him.

6. Jason Kidd - Horrible shooter until he was a role player later. I just think it’s really hard to win a title with a PG whose shooting the other team doesn’t have to respect at all and who still often averages below a 50% TS%. I know he was a great passer, rebounder, and defender, but the awful shooting leaves him last on this list for me.

I’ll note, however, that this is a good list of comparable players, and I tend to think that any of them could be put 1st or last and it could be justified.

Its funny because I would have Isiah flipped with Stockton but I'm going to push back on him being a woefully inefficient shooter. I think most would say he was a pretty good shooter. Not great but his lack of efficiency was due in part to him having to take a lot of outside shots and often setting up others when he went into the paint as a very small guard(I have trouble believing he was over 5-10 barefoot). He also had a lot of good scoring games where his jumper wasn't just good but great including the 25 pt quarter on an injured ankle. As a Cavs fan I hated seeing Isiah shoot the ball at the end of games because it seemed like he always made the ones he needed to.

[JordansBulls]

Give your reasons

Jason Kidd
John Stockton
Chris Paul
Steve Nash
Gary Payton
Isaiah Thomas

Zeke
Stockton
Payton
Kidd
Nash
CP3

[Purch]

Give your reasons

Jason Kidd
John Stockton
Chris Paul
Steve Nash
Gary Payton
Isaiah Thomas

Zeke
Stockton
Payton
Kidd
Nash
CP3

So just because everyone else seems to be ranking Zeke/Payton low, why do you rank them so high comparatively,?

[mdonnelly1989]

Give your reasons

Jason Kidd
John Stockton
Chris Paul
Steve Nash
Gary Payton
Isaiah Thomas

I like this question because I think these Point Guards are all roughly in the same tier. I don't see a huge Gap between any of them TBH. They all have a case for one over the other and I think CP3's career is overrated.

I'd go IMO

#1.) Stockton -> All time leader in steals and assists. (Hard to beat this as a PG) Plus a very high quality defender.
Rating -> 93

#2.) Steve Nash -> IMO even a better floor general than Stockton. His offensive floor general skills are #2 all time too Magic. And also the second best perimeter shooter for a PG behind Curry. (Hurts on defense)
Rating -> 92

#3.) CP3 -> Probably tied as a floor general with Jason Kidd for the 3rd or 4th best floor general of all time. Top 5 defensive PG of all time. Automatic from Mid range.
Rating -> 92

#4.) Jason Kidd - Top 5 Floor general of all time. Can be argued for #2 behind Magic. Second best Defensive PG behind Gary Payton.
Rating -> 91.5

#5.) Isaiah Thomas -> Low effenciency but in a different ERA. Still averaged 20-12 during prime. Top 10 floor general of all time. And best player on back to back championships.
Rating -> 91.5

#6.) Gary Payton -> Best Defensive PG of all time. And one of the better scoring point guards for that ERA if not the best.
Rating -> 91.5