Has anybody consistently faced tougher Playoff defenses than Kobe Bryant?

[ty 4191]

You guys will die on a hill defending a period of race quotas and owners saying they don't want too many black people in a sport where almost all of the players today are black or coming from another country.

Most of the players today would not even get interested in the sport.

This is the second part of the quote from Wilt's actual teammate: "I went and told my wife. She said, 'You mean you're on this team because you're white?' 'Well, yeah.' So I went to New York to look for a job outside of basketball."

The league was fully integrated during Wilt's career. Why do you ignore that?

Does anyone have the percentage of African American players in the NBA, by decade or by year?

[oaktownwarriors87]

I haven't seen the stats, but I imagine Duncan would have to surpass him due to simply the amount of time.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1836300

Courtesy of 70's Fan, in order, of % of games played in the playoffs....

Players with the highest percentage of games against "Elite" (-4 through -6.9 team Defensive Rating) plus "All Time Great" (-7 or better team dRTG). Note: This is peaks only:

1. Wilt Chamberlain (52.50% of playoffs games): 47.5 mpg, 28.5 rpg, 4.3 apg, 28.1 ppg on 50.8% FG, 50.6% FT, 52.2% TS (+3.84 rTS%)

2. Karl Malone (41.26% of playoffs games): 41.7 mpg, 11.0 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.7 tov, 25.4 ppg on 46.8% FG, 67.0% FT and 51.5% TS (-1.56% rTS)

3. LeBron James (37.38% of playoffs games): 42.4 mpg, 9.0 rpg, 6.6 apg, 3.9 tov, 29.8 ppg on 48.2% FG, 36.3% 3FG, 72.8% FT and 57.1% TS (+2.93% rTS)

4. Bob Pettit (36.78% of playoffs games): 41.5 mpg, 15.9 rpg, 2.8 apg, -- tov, 26.8 ppg on 41.9% FG, 76.6% FT and 50.0% TS (+3.75% rTS)

5. Michael Jordan (32.96% of playoffs games): 42.4 mpg, 6.3 rpg, 5.6 apg, 3.2 tov, 32.6 ppg on 45.8% FG, 29.5% 3FG, 84.6% FT and 54.9% TS (+1.24% rTS)

6. Kobe Bryant (30.59% of playoffs games): 42.9 mpg, 5.5 rpg, 5.2 apg, 3.0 tov, 27.3 ppg on 45.3% FG, 32.4% 3FG, 79.6% FT and 52.8% TS (-0.07% rTS)

7. Shaquille O'Neal (30.38% of playoffs games): 41.1 mpg, 13.3 rpg, 2.9 apg, 3.3 tov, 26.9 ppg on 55.8% FG, 53.5% FT and 56.9% TS (+4.59% rTS)

8. Dirk Nowitzki (28.23% of playoffs games): 41.1 mpg, 10.6 rpg, 2.6 apg, 2.0 tov, 23.4 ppg on 45.5% FG, 29.3% 3FG, 88.4% FT and 57.4% TS (+4.41% rTS)

And:

Tim Duncan (16.77% of playoffs games): 41.7 mpg, 13.7 rpg, 3.2 apg, 3.0 tov, 23.6 ppg on 47.8% FG, 68.0% FT and 52.7% TS (+0.50% rTS)

Duncan did not face great or outstanding defenses in the playoffs in his prime, overall.

I'd like to add the average SRS of playoff opponents in a championship run, with the negatives zeroed out.

HOU 1995 6.44/5.90/3.85/7.76 (5.9875 average)
LAL 2001 3.63/7.92/6.07/4.52 (5.535 average)
CHI 1992 7.97/5.56/5.51/1.77 (5.2025 average)
LAL 2002 3.67/7.61/6.28/3.21 (5.1925 average)
LAL 2000 4.15/6.36/5.24/3.04 (4.6975 average)
DAL 2011 6.76/3.81/6.01/1.84 (4.605 average)
CLE 2016 10.38/4.08/3.49/0.43 (4.595 average)
SAS 2014 4.15/6.66/4.44/2.91 (4.54 average)
HOU 1994 6.48/4.10/4.68/2.59 (4.4625 average)
CHI 1996 6.27/5.87/6.30/(-0.67) (4.6100 average)
GSW 2022 7.02/5.37/3.12/2.15 (4.45 average)
TOR 2019 6.42/8.04/2.25/0.28 (4.2475 average)
LAL 2010 3.37/4.67/5.33/3.55 (4.23 average)
SAS 2003 4.42/7.90/2.71/1.56 (4.1475 average)
CHI 1993 7.40/5.40/2.24/1.46 (4.125 average)
CHI 1991 5.73/6.25/2.45/1.88 (4.0775 average)
CHI 1997 6.94/5.34/3.67/(-3.94) (3.9875 average)
LAL 2009 6.48/3.12/3.73/2.31 (3.9075 average)
SAS 2007 3.33/3.06/7.28/1.69 (3.84 average)
SAS 2005 3.31/7.08/2.59/2.23 (3.8025 average)
BOS 2008 7.34/6.67/(-0.53)/(-2.23) (3.5025 average)
GSW 2017 2.87/7.13/4.00/(-0.23) (3.5 average)
DET 1989 6.38/2.13/4.11/1.26 (3.47 average)
MIA 2006 5.96/6.24/1.11/0.51 (3.455 average)
MIA 2012 6.44/2.26/2.59/2.39 (3.42 average)
BOS 1986 2.10/8.69/2.59/(-3.12) (3.345 average)
GSW 2018 0.59/8.21/1.48/2.89 (3.2925 average)
GSW 2015 4.08/3.82/3.62/1.13 (3.1625 average)
MIL 2021 5.67/2.14/4.24/(-0.06) (3.0125 average)
LAL 1988 5.46/3.59/2.96/(-5.02) (3.0025 average)
DET 2004 4.35/4.93/1.88/0.42 (2.895 average)
LAL 1985 6.46/2.05/2.80/(-2.34) (2.8275 average)
BOS 1984 3.32/4.04/3.79/(-2.36) (2.7875 average)
MIA 2013 6.67/3.34/(-0.02)/(-1.83) (2.5025 average)
DET 1990 6.48/2.74/0.78/(-0.18) (2.500 average)
CHI 1998 6.73/3.08/(-0.39)/(-0.43) (2.4525 average)
SAS 1999 1.45/5.67/2.67/(-0.17) (2.4475 average)
LAL 2020 2.59/2.35/3.13/(-0.61) (2.0175 average)
LAL 1987 6.57/0.08/(-2.54)/(-1.14) (1.6625 average)


Average difficulty (3+ rings)
Shaq: 4.72
Kobe: 4.71
Jordan: 4.08
Duncan: 3.76
Curry: 3.61
Wade: 3.13
LeBron: 3.13
Magic: 2.50

Also, former MVP's and their playoffs record against teams with an SRS of 5+

Russell: 3-1 (75.00%)
Jordan: 14-7 (66.66%)
Curry: 6-4 (60.00%)
Kobe: 13-9 (59.09%)
Magic: 7-5 (58.33%)
Shaq: 11-8 (57.89%)
Duncan: 7-8 (46.66%)
Hakeem: 6-7 (46.15%)
Kareem: 5-6 (45.45%)
Garnett: 5-6 (45.45%)
Bird: 3-4 (42.86%)
Durant: 4-6 (40.00%)
Nowitzki: 6-10 (37.50%)
Chamberlain: 4-7 (36.36%)
Malone: 6-11 (35.29%)
Westbrook: 3-6 (33.33%)
Giannis: 1-2 (33.33%)
LeBron: 4-9 (30.77%)
Nash: 4-10 (28.57%)
Moses: 2-5 (28.57%)
Barkley: 3-8 (27.27%)
Harden: 3-9 (25.00%)
Robinson: 2-6 (25.00%)
Jokic: 1-3 (33.33%)
Iverson: 0-2 (00.00%)

[ty 4191]

Average difficulty (3+ rings)
Shaq: 4.72
Kobe: 4.71
Jordan: 4.08
Duncan: 3.76
Curry: 3.61
Wade: 3.13
LeBron: 3.13
Magic: 2.50

This is a much more precise methodology, and, ostensibly, requisite results:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1836300

[70sFan]

You guys will die on a hill defending a period of race quotas and owners saying they don't want too many black people in a sport where almost all of the players today are black or coming from another country.

Most of the players today would not even get interested in the sport.

This is the second part of the quote from Wilt's actual teammate: "I went and told my wife. She said, 'You mean you're on this team because you're white?' 'Well, yeah.' So I went to New York to look for a job outside of basketball."

The league was fully integrated during Wilt's career. Why do you ignore that?

Does anyone have the percentage of African American players in the NBA, by decade or by year?

I couldn't find any article that would summarize the work done by any people. I have quickly found that 38% of players in 1962/63 season were black and in 1965/66 black players were the majority for the first time ever. By the end of the 1970s, it reached over 70%.

[Statlanta]

The post is kind of misleading in that sure Kobe faced a -6.4 team like the Magic but is he really going against a tough playoff defense when rookie Courtney Lee is on him or Richard Hamilton or Ray Allen, or Kerry Kittles, etc.

[oaktownwarriors87]

The post is kind of misleading in that sure Kobe faced a -6.4 team like the Magic but is he really going against a tough playoff defense when rookie Courtney Lee is on him or Richard Hamilton or Ray Allen, or Kerry Kittles, etc.

Yes.

[Purch]

The post is kind of misleading in that sure Kobe faced a -6.4 team like the Magic but is he really going against a tough playoff defense when rookie Courtney Lee is on him or Richard Hamilton or Ray Allen, or Kerry Kittles, etc.

Yes. There's teams that have an array of great defensive individuals, and teams that have a great defensive scheme. I've seen Thibs coach an elite defensive team with Carlos Boozer and Noah down low. I've seen him coach the Knicks last season to the third best defense and number 1 in points allowed.

Defenses are a lot of times greater than their individual pieces.

[ardee]

The post is kind of misleading in that sure Kobe faced a -6.4 team like the Magic but is he really going against a tough playoff defense when rookie Courtney Lee is on him or Richard Hamilton or Ray Allen, or Kerry Kittles, etc.

Team defense is more relevant. Names don't matter as much as the collective scheme. As Purch says, that's why guys like Thibs have a job.

[ardee]

No. I think Kobe is 24-8 against 50-win teams which is far more than any other player. That thread about quality of defense faced, I think Kobe faced a tough defense 71% of the time.

How about quality of teams faced in the playoffs, overall?

This thread was inspired by 70's Fan and his thread, here:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1836300

I wanted to find out which ATG Players faced the best teams in the Playoffs, so I looked at the Net Rating of opposing teams (for every series) for each player, and ran the numbers using this criteria, which 70s Fan used, but for overall opponent production, (not just defense, this time):

Lower -2.0 Net Rating: Bad Team
From -2.0 to +1.9 Net Rating: Average Team
From +2.0 to +3.9 Net Rating: Good Team
From +4.0 to +6.0 Net Rating: Elite Team
Above +7.0 Net Rating: All-Time Great Team

I started with a few ATG Centers, and I'm just getting started, but here are some results:

Wilt Chamberlain:

Regular Season: 45.8 MPG, 30.1 PPG, 22.9 RBS, 4.4 AST, .540 FG% (+5.5 rTS%)

Against Bad Teams: (0% of playoff games): -----
Against Average Teams: (30.6% of playoff games): 47.9 MPG, 27.2 PPG, 26.9 RBS, 5.9 AST (+5.2 rTS%)
Against Good Teams: (23.1% of playoff games): 46.6 MPG, 27.2 PPG, 21.2 RBS, 3.2 AST (+5.2 tTS%)
Against Elite Teams: (31.2% of playoff games): 47 MPG, 18.1 PPG, 23.3 RBS, 4.2 AST (+1.6 rTS%)
Against All Time Great Teams: (15% of playoff games): 47.4 MPG, 35.4 PPG, 25.3 RBS, 2.5 AST, (+4.0 rTS%)

Bill Russell:

(Regular Season): 42.3 MPG, 15.1 PPG, 22.5 RBS, 4.3 AST, .440 FG%, (-0.8 rTS%)

Against Bad Teams: (3.6% of playoff games): 47.8 MPG, 20.0 PPG, 26.0 RBS, 5.3 AST (+3.6 rTS%)
Against Average Teams: (44.2% of playoff games): 46 MPG, 15.2 PPG, 23.5 RBS, 5.4 AST (-1.3 rTS%)
Against Good Teams: (26% of playoff games): 42 MPG, 15.6 PPG, 25.9 RBS, 2.9 AST (-1.2 rTS%)
Against Elite Teams: (21.8% of playoff games): 47.2 MPG, 19.8 PPG, 27.7 RBS, 4.7 AST (+1.3 rTS%)
Against All Time Great Teams: (4.2% of playoff games): 48 MPG, 9.1 PPG, 21.1 RBS, 5.1 AST (-4.5 rTS%)

Kareem Abdul-Jabaar:

Regular Season: 36.8 MPG, 24.6 PPG, 11.2 RBS, 3.6 AST, .559 FG%, (+6.8 tTS%)

Against Bad Teams: (5.8% of playoff games): 42.6 MPG, 30.2 PPG, 13.9 RBS, 3.6 AST, (+4.4 rTS%)
Against Average Teams: (26.6% of playoff games): 44.8 MPG, 29.7 PPG, 15.8 RBS, 4.1 AST (+8.1 rTS%)
Against Good Teams: (40.4% of playoff games): 29.9 MPG, 18.4 PPG, 6.1 RBS, 2.5 AST, (+2.2 rTS%)
Against Elite Teams: (18.8% of playoff games): 36.6 MPG, 23.4 PPG, 8.2 RBS, 3.3 AST, (+6.9 rTS%)
Against All Time Great Teams: (8.3% of playoff games): 42.2 MPG, 30.8 PPG, 16.6 RBS, 3.3 AST, (+2.5 tTS%)

LeBron James:

Regular Season: 38.2 MPG, 27.1 PPG, 7.4 RBS, 7.4 AST, .505 FG%, (+4.4 rTS%)

Against Bad Teams: (0% of playoff games): ---
Against Average Teams: (33.4% of playoff games): 42.3 MPG, 27.8 PPG, 8.7 RBS, 6.4 AST, (+5.4 rTS%)
Against Good Teams: (23.7% of playoff games): 39.4 MPG, 30.7 PPG, 9.4 RBS, 8.6 AST, (+8.1 rTS%)
Against Elite Teams: (22.6% of playoff games): 40.1 MPG, 28.0 PPG, 9.3 RBS, 7.1 AST, (+3.8 rTS%)
Against All Time Great Teams: (21% of playoff games): 43.5 MPG, 28.5 PPG, 8.4 RBS, 7.2 AST, (+1.4 tTS%)

Michael Jordan:

Regular Season: 38.3 MPG, 30.1 PPG, 6.2 RBS, 5.3 AST, .497 FG% (+3.7 rTS%)

Against Bad Teams: (3.9% of playoff games): 43.1 MPG, 31.3 PPG, 5.7 RBS, 4.3 AST, (-0.6 tTS%)
Against Average Teams: (20.1% of playoff games): 40.1 MPG, 35.0 PPG, 7 RBS, 7.5 AST, (+6.6 rTS%)
Against Good Teams: (15% of playoff games): 41.9 MPG, 32.7 PPG, 5.5 RBS, 3.9 AST, (+1.4 tTS%)
Against Elite Teams: (40.2% of playoff games): 41.0 MPG, 32.4 PPG, 6.3 RBS, 5 AST, (+2.6 rTS%)
Against All Time Great Teams: (20.7% of playoff games): 42.8 MPG, 35.8 PPG, 6.8 RBS, 6.6 AST, (+4.5 rTS%)

Larry Bird:

Regular Season: 38.4 MPG, 24.3 PPG, 10.0 RBS, 6.3 AST, .496 FG%, (+2.8 rTS%)

Against Bad Teams: (8.5% of playoff games): 41.3 MPG, 27.9 PPG, 9.4 RBS, 6.0 AST, (0.5 rTS%)
Against Average Teams: (28.6% of playoff games): 41.3 MPG, 22.0 PPG, 11.9 RBS, 6.2 AST (+0 tTS%)
Against Good Teams: (25.6% of playoff games): 40.5 MPG, 21.0 PPG, 8.0 RBS, 6.7 AST (-2.1 rTS%)
Against Elite Teams: (25% of playoff games): 43.2 MPG, 26.5 PPG, 9.5 RBS, 7.7 AST (+6.0 rTS%)
Against All Time Great Teams: (12.2% of playoff games): 42.9 MPG, 23.2 PPG, 12.0 RBS, 5.4 AST, (+2.6 rTS%)

Magic Johnson:

Regular Season: 26.7 MPG, 19.5 PPG, 11.2 AST, .520 FG%, (6.7 rTS%)

Against Bad Teams: (8.4% of playoff games): 36.9 MPG, 17.6 PPG, 7.3 RBS, 15.5 AST, (+4.3 rTS%)
Against Average Teams: (27.8% of playoff games): 39.9 MPG, 18.0 PPG, 8.3 RBS, 12.2 AST (+0.0 tTS%)
Against Good Teams: (24.6% of playoff games): 39.6 MPG, 20.6. PPG, 6.9 RBS, 11.7 AST (+5.5 tTS%)
Against Elite Teams: (29.3% of playoff games): 38.3 MPG, 20.7 PPG, 6.7 RBS, 13.3 AST (+6.4 rTS%)
Against All Time Great Teams: (9.9% of playoff games): 41.4 MPG, 17.9 PPG, 8.9 RBS, 11.3 AST, (+3.4 tTS%)

Steph Curry:

Regular Season: 34.3 MPG, 24.3 PPG, 4.6 RBS, .473 FG% (+7.5 tTS%)

Against Bad Teams: ---
Against Average Teams: (30.4% of playoff games): 33.5 MPG, 26.0 PPG, 5.2 RBS, 5.9 AST (+13.7 rTS%)
Against Good Teams: (16.5% of playoff games): 34.4 MPG, 29.1 PPG, 5.3 RBS, 5.8 AST, (+6.9 rTS%)
Against Elite Teams: (33% of playoff games): 39.5 MPG, 26.8 PPG, 6.2 RBS, 5.9 AST, (+8.6 rTS%)
Against All Time Great Teams: (20% of all playoff games): 37.9 MPG, 25.9 PPG, 4.1 RBS, 8 AST, (+9.4 tTS%)

Tim Duncan:

Regular Season: 34.0 MPG, 19.0 PTS, 10.8 RBS, 3.0 AST, (+2.0 rTS%)

Against Bad Teams: (2.4% of playoff games): 20.2 MPG, 5.8 PPG, 6.3 RBS, 2.0 AST, (14.4 tTS%)
Against Average Teams: (19.1% of playoff games): 37.7 MPG, 19.7 PPG, 11.1 RBS, 3.2 AST (+2.3 rTS%)
Against Good Teams: (28.3% of playoff games): 37 MPG, 22.2 MPG, 10.2 RBS, 3.3 AST, (+4.7 rTS%)
Against Elite Teams: (34.7% of playoff games): 37.6 MPG, 20.0 PPG, 11.9 RBS, 3.0 AST (+0.2 rTS%)
Against All Time Great Teams: (15.5% of games): 38.5 MPG, 21.8 PPG, 12.5 RBS, 2.9 AST, (+0.9 rTS%)

Jerry West

Regular Season: 39.2 MPG, 27.0 PTS, 5.8 RBS, 6.7 AST (+5.5 tTS%)

Against Bad Teams: (3.3% of playoff games): 40.8 MPG, 28.4 PPG, 4.2 RBS, 5.6 AST, (+8.3 rTS%)
Against Average Teams: (40.5% of playoff games): 42.2 MPG, 30.8 PPG, 5.9 RBS, 6.3 AST, (+7.7 rTS%)
Against Good Teams: (20.3% of playoff games): 33.5 MPG, 20.9 PPG, 4.9 RBS, 6.5 AST, (3.1 rTS%)
Against Elite Teams: (19.6% of playoff games): 42.0 MPG, 31.3 PPG, 5.3 RBS, 5.0 AST (+4.4 rTS%)
Against All Time Great Teams: (16.3% of playoff games): 37.3 MPG, 23.3 PPG, 4.2 RBS, 5.9 AST, (-2.9 rTS%)

Kobe Bryant

Against Bad Teams: (0% of playoff games): -----
Against Average Teams: (7.7% of playoff games): 35.0 MPG, 19.4 PPG, 4.1 RBS, 4.3 AST, (+0.0 rTS%)
Against Good Teams: (20.5% of playoff games): 40.5 MPG, 28.0 PPG, 5.5 RBS, 5.2 AST, (+1.5 rTS%)
Against Elite Teams: (40.9% of playoff games): 39.6 MPG, 25.9 PPG, 5.0 RBS, 4.6 AST, (+2.6 rTS%)
Against All Time Great Teams: (30.9% of playoff games): 36.4 MPG, 22.9 RBS, 4.8 AST, 4.4 RBS, (+2.1 rTS%)

Performance Against The Very Best: Versus Elite + All Time Great Teams

Wilt: (46.2% of total games): 47.2 MPG, 26.8 PPG, 24.3 RBS, 3.4 AST, (+2.8 rTS%)

Russell: (26% of total games): 47.6 MPG, 14.5 PPG, 24.4 RBS, 4.8 AST, (-1.6 rTS%)

Kareem: (27.1% of total games): 39.4 MPG, 27.1 PPG, 12.4 RBS, 3.3 AST, (+4.6% rTS%)

Jordan: (60.9% of total games): 41.9 MPG, 34.1 PPG, 6.6 RBS, 5.8 AST, (+3.6% rTS%)

LeBron: (43.6% of total games): 41.8 MPG, 28.3 PPG, 8.9 RBS, 7.2 AST, (+2.6 tTS%)

Bird: (37.2% of total games): 43.0 MPG, 24.8 PPG, 10.8 RBS, 6.6 AST, (+4.3 rTS%)

Magic: (39.2% of total games): 39.9 MPG, 19.3 PPG, 7.8 RBS, 12.3 AST, (+3.9 tTS%)

Curry: (53% of total games): 38.7 MPG, 26.4 PPG, 5.2 RBS, 7 AST, (+9.0 rTS%)

Duncan: (50.2% of total games): 38.0 MPG, 20.9 PPG, 12.2 RBS, 3.0 AST, (+0.6 rTS%)

West: (35.9% of total games): 39.7 MPG, 27.3 PPG, 4.8 RBS, 5.5 AST, (+0.8 rTS%)

Kobe: (71.8% of total games): 38 MPG, 24.4 PPG, 4.9 RBS, 4.5 AST, (+2.4 rTS%)

Great post. You should make this a separate thread.

72% of total games against elite or ATG teams is really quite unbelievable, yet he'll never get credit for it here.

[HeartBreakKid]

Actually I'm thinking about this question, and wouldn't Shaq face the same competition? Why is it tough for Kobe but not Shaq, that part doesn't make much sense.

They both faced some good defenses without each other as well. Seems rather comparable especially given Shaq was the #1 option more often.

[SpreeS]

Actually I'm thinking about this question, and wouldn't Shaq face the same competition? Why is it tough for Kobe but not Shaq, that part doesn't make much sense.

They both faced some good defenses without each other as well. Seems rather comparable especially given Shaq was the #1 option more often.

Maybe BOS 2008 and 2010 has something with it.

[HeartBreakKid]

Actually I'm thinking about this question, and wouldn't Shaq face the same competition? Why is it tough for Kobe but not Shaq, that part doesn't make much sense.

They both faced some good defenses without each other as well. Seems rather comparable especially given Shaq was the #1 option more often.

Maybe BOS 2008 and 2010 has something with it.

It could, and theres 09 Magic as well. But it's not like Shaq doesn't have a career outside the Lakers. He faced the Jordan Bulls (not the poster ) who were the #1 defense for many years as an example. His time in the East would also mean he'd face the Ben Wallace Pistons, Reggie Miller Pacers and Jason Kidd Nets multiple times.

It just seems weird...like most of the elite defenses Kobe faced Shaq faced also - yet the thread is making it seem like Kobe is treated unfairly for...something?

[NO-KG-AI]

After looking at their numbers vs those great and all time great teams, it seems pretty clear Kobe faced the most but also performed clearly the worst against them

[ShotCreator]

Eh. I mean, the late 90’s and early 00’s did see some pretty complete contenders and teams. But ATG? And even still, he saw them with Shaq and good role players, Phil Jackson led coaching staff. It’s literally, the best possible situation he could’ve ever been in.

I don’t think Kobe was a stand out from Nash or Dirk from 05-12 as far as difficulty.

I think in essence Chris Paul’s run from 08-18 was just much harder in every conceivable way.

15 SA, 14 OKC’s, 14 GS, and 18 GS, 7> net ratings were way, way harder to knock out of the playoffs than 07 PHX or 08 Utah’s. And Paul didn’t get to go through have his runs with Duncan or LeBron, with Pop and his coaching staff.

Kobe played the same defense as Paul in 08 SA. Check the team ORTG’s and production. Kobe was not some standout guy against legitimately elite defense.

He torched, the daylights out of any defense that was not championship level though.

Either way, some idea of Kobe having an all-time difficult career is just laughable to me.

[LAL1947]

I haven't seen the stats, but I imagine Duncan would have to surpass him due to simply the amount of time.

No offense to you personally, Purch, just using your post to make a point in general. All these different things that people imagine about Duncan are because his career hasn't really been held under a microscope to highlight any failures or shortcomings as we do with Kobe, Lebron, Steph, etc.

I find that more often than not, a lot of people just parrot the same cliches they've been told without cross-examining them. Some examples: best PF of all-time, instead of #5th-6th best Center of All-Time, or... he did a historical carry job in 2002-03, without considering the actual quality of the rosters he played against that season (2003 Lakers SRS was a paltry 2.71 compared to an average of 6.43 in the previous 3 seasons), and... in another thread, it's been shown how Kobe was a better or more efficient post-scorer than Duncan even though people wrongly assumed that Duncan would be more efficient. I think this is why Duncan is considered Top #5 by some, instead of Top #9-11 where he really belongs.

Anyway, to answer your question using data from 70sFan's excellent thread, Duncan played a smaller portion of his playoff games against -4.0 rDRtg defenses or better (i.e., against Elite + All-Time Great defenses), compared to the peers listed:

1) Karl Malone: 41.26% of playoffs games
2) Lebron: 37.38% of playoffs games
3) Kobe: 30.59% of playoffs games
4) Shaq: 30.38% of playoffs games
5) Dirk: 28.23% of playoffs games
6) Garnett: 21.53% of playoffs games
7) Duncan: 16.77% of playoffs games

If we look at number of playoff games against -2.0 rDRtg defenses or better (i.e., against Good + Elite + All-Time Great defenses) compared to his peers, it doesn't get better:

1) Shaq: 72.15% of playoffs games
2) Kobe: 62.94% of playoffs games
3) Karl Malone: 62.94% of playoffs games
4) Lebron: 62.14% of playoffs games
5) Dirk: 47.58% of playoffs games
6) Garnett: 36.92% of playoffs games
7) Duncan: 29.09% of playoffs games

As you can see, Shaq and Kobe played twice as many playoff games against -2.0 rDRtg defenses, which is one of the reasons why I have them higher than Duncan in my Top 10. I've also always said that Karl Malone gets criminally under-rated as the actual best PF of All-Time... and it's become fashionable for people to hate on him for off-court reasons. Look at any comparison between Karl and Duncan, people criticize Karl for his playoff production... but won't consider that he played more games against better defenses.

[ceiling raiser]

I haven't seen the stats, but I imagine Duncan would have to surpass him due to simply the amount of time.

No offense to you personally, Purch, just using your post to make a point in general. All these different things that people imagine about Duncan are because his career hasn't really been held under a microscope to highlight any failures or shortcomings as we do with Kobe, Lebron, Steph, etc.

I find that more often than not, a lot of people just parrot the same cliches they've been told without cross-examining them. Some examples: best PF of all-time, instead of #5th-6th best Center of All-Time, or... he did a historical carry job in 2002-03, without considering the actual quality of the rosters he played against that season (2003 Lakers SRS was a paltry 2.71 compared to an average of 6.43 in the previous 3 seasons), and... in another thread, it's been shown how Kobe was a better or more efficient post-scorer than Duncan even though some didn't really consider this to be true before. I think this is why Duncan is considered Top #5 by some, instead of Top #9-11 where he really belongs.

Anyway, to answer your question using data from @70sFan's excellent thread, this is Duncan's position compared to his peers, going by the number of playoff games against -4.0 rDRtg defenses or better (i.e., against Elite + All-Time Great defenses):

1) Karl Malone: 41.26% of playoffs games
2) Lebron: 37.38% of playoffs games
3) Kobe: 30.59% of playoffs games
4) Shaq: 30.38% of playoffs games
5) Dirk: 28.23% of playoffs games
6) Garnett: 21.53% of playoffs games
7) Duncan: 16.77% of playoffs games

If we look at number of playoff games against -2.0 rDRtg defenses or better (i.e., against Good + Elite + All-Time Great defenses) compared to his peers, it doesn't get better:

1) Shaq: 72.15% of playoffs games
2) Kobe: 62.94% of playoffs games
3) Karl Malone: 62.94% of playoffs games
4) Lebron: 62.14% of playoffs games
5) Dirk: 47.58% of playoffs games
6) Garnett: 36.92% of playoffs games
7) Duncan: 29.09% of playoffs games

Shaq and Kobe both played twice as many playoff games against -2.0 rDRtg defenses, which is one of the reasons why I have them higher than Duncan in my Top 10. I've also always said that Karl Malone gets criminally under-rated as the actual best PF of All-Time... and it's become fashionable for people to hate on him for off-court reasons.

Do you have data for number of playoff games against +2.0 and +4.0 ORtg offenses? Since Kobe is an offense-first player and Duncan is a defense-first player, it would make more sense to compare them on both sides.

[LAL1947]

Do you have data for number of playoff games against +2.0 and +4.0 ORtg offenses? Since Kobe is an offense-first player and Duncan is a defense-first player, it would make more sense to compare them on both sides.

I'd like you to take a little time to contemplate what was said in my post. Considering the speed of your reply, i.e., it looks like you didn't take more than a few minutes to think about what you just read. So it seems to me that you may not be interested in meaningful discussion but want to provide immediate rebuttals to any points that don't fit your desired thought process.

Anyway, Duncan wasn't always a defense-first player. Like Kobe, he too was equally oriented to both offense and defense in his first years in the league.

Btw, your username is also making me think of another point ( )... i.e., I'd say that both guys were equal parts ceiling-raiser + floor-raiser for the first part of their careers. Then something happened to Duncan's mobility in 2004 or 2005... and he became more of a floor-raiser instead, while Kobe stayed at the same level of being a ceiling-raiser for longer.

[ceiling raiser]

Do you have data for number of playoff games against +2.0 and +4.0 ORtg offenses? Since Kobe is an offense-first player and Duncan is a defense-first player, it would make more sense to compare them on both sides.

I'd like you to take a little time to contemplate what was said in my post. Considering the speed of your reply, i.e., it looks like you didn't take more than a few minutes to think about what you just read. So it seems to me that you may not be interested in meaningful discussion but want to provide immediate rebuttals to any points that don't fit your desired thought process.

Anyway, Duncan wasn't always a defense-first player. Like Kobe, he too was equally oriented to both offense and defense in his first years in the league.

Btw, your username is also making me think of another point ( )... i.e., I'd say that both guys were equal parts ceiling-raiser + floor-raiser for the first part of their careers. Then something happened to Duncan's mobility... and he became a bit more of a floor-raiser instead, while Kobe stayed at the same level of being a ceiling-raiser for longer.

What percentage of Kobe’s impact was from offense vs defense in your opinion? What about Duncan’s?

[LukaTheGOAT]

Eh. I mean, the late 90’s and early 00’s did see some pretty complete contenders and teams. But ATG? And even still, he saw them with Shaq and good role players, Phil Jackson led coaching staff. It’s literally, the best possible situation he could’ve ever been in.

I don’t think Kobe was a stand out from Nash or Dirk from 05-12 as far as difficulty.

I think in essence Chris Paul’s run from 08-18 was just much harder in every conceivable way.

15 SA, 14 OKC’s, 14 GS, and 18 GS, 7> net ratings were way, way harder to knock out of the playoffs than 07 PHX or 08 Utah’s. And Paul didn’t get to go through have his runs with Duncan or LeBron, with Pop and his coaching staff.

Kobe played the same defense as Paul in 08 SA. Check the team ORTG’s and production. Kobe was not some standout guy against legitimately elite defense.

He torched, the daylights out of any defense that was not championship level though.

Either way, some idea of Kobe having an all-time difficult career is just laughable to me.

Do you think Paul's performance against the Spurs in 08 was in another tier from Kobe's? I think both were pretty dang dominant.

[ceoofkobefans]

And what’s crazy about this is that he still rises in the PO as a scorer (especially when you inflation adjust these numbers)

One of the biggest PO risers ever clearly

From 08-10 he averaged 30.5 IA PTS/75 on +3.9 rTS this doesn’t even completely adjust for how good he was because IA only accounts for the raw DRTG not how good the defenses were relative to league

This also isn’t taking into account that Kobe had goat tier gravity in these runs which just makes the 31 on +4 look all the crazier

This is why I think he’s the 4th best scorer ever