RealGM

Who would you say has the better post game?

Am inclined to say Duncan. Kobe had good post play for a wing, but he didn't use it in anything like the volume that Duncan did. Tim was known for his polished fundamentals.

I would, however, like to see if we have any per possession data from Duncan's peak to see how the two match up in terms of total possessions used, scoring efficiency and passing.

tsherkin wrote:Am inclined to say Duncan. Kobe had good post play for a wing, but he didn't use it in anything like the volume that Duncan did. Tim was known for his polished fundamentals.

I would, however, like to see if we have any per possession data from Duncan's peak to see how the two match up in terms of total possessions used, scoring efficiency and passing.

Good post but on the bolded are you sure? Just going off memory but Kobe played kinda similar to 96-98 MJ who was pretty post oriented at this point in his career

Duncan due to sheer volume if nothing else.

Kobe was more efficient on post-derived offense, and of course much better relative to position. Posting guards is easier, of course. On the other hand, Duncan has three times the volume and is efficient enough, so it's probably him anyway, lol.

Who is a better 3pt shooter, Bird or Lillard? I'd say Lillard. Same here.

I'm all for celebrating the beauty that is Kobe's post game. But I'm stopping short of saying he's "better" or especially "more effective" than any of the most effective post-up bigs of all-time. Kobe has quicks, body control, and elevation than Duncan could only dream of... but Duncan is starting off every post-up 6 inches taller and 50lbs. heavier.

Because of this size, Duncan could post much closer to the hoop and take way more efficient shots. 6'6" dudes aren't routinely going to be sealing for deep post position for bunnies as much as 6'11" guys can. I don't have full numbers on this, but casually browsing Kobe and Tim shooting stats at nba.com shows me Tim was routinely shooting 65-70% on turnarounds and hooks. Kobe was shooting more in the 50s (in his best seasons) on turnarounds and wasn't taking hook shots with any volume/frequency. I'm pulling these numbers from browsing a couple prime Duncan and Kobe seasons, so don't take these as comprehensive. I also don't know how much I trust the playtracking here.

Also, Kobe's post-up game was something he added to his game in the second half of his career. He gradually shifted to it more and more as he got older. Duncan came into the league a dominant post-up scorer and very gradually faded/de-emphasized it as a focus of his game. But even in Duncan's twilight, the Spurs would go to Duncan for strategic post-ups.

Kobe was better

Duncan was more productive

1993Playoffs wrote:

tsherkin wrote:Am inclined to say Duncan. Kobe had good post play for a wing, but he didn't use it in anything like the volume that Duncan did. Tim was known for his polished fundamentals.

I would, however, like to see if we have any per possession data from Duncan's peak to see how the two match up in terms of total possessions used, scoring efficiency and passing.

Good post but on the bolded are you sure? Just going off memory but Kobe played kinda similar to 96-98 MJ who was pretty post oriented at this point in his career

100% yes. Duncan was a post-oriented big. Kobe shot too much from 3 just as a starting point to even consider that he used the post as much as Duncan. And since there is no time frame here, you basically wipe Kobe from this conversation before Shaq leaves. He had post game earlier but used it waaaay less and developed it a lot more later into his career.

tsherkin wrote:Am inclined to say Duncan. Kobe had good post play for a wing, but he didn't use it in anything like the volume that Duncan did. Tim was known for his polished fundamentals.

I think I'd rephrase the bolded part to say... Kobe had better post moves than Duncan despite being a 6'5"-6'6" shooting guard, but he didn't play in the post as much as Duncan did for the reasons of height and being able to play just as well in other areas of the court.

Not every guard or forward has those skills at the same level of refinement. For example, even Wade did not.

by definition a wing posting up has more lines of defense to work against (as there is a center behind usually on top of the man guarding him) so he usually has to rrly more in post jumpshots than getting the chance of a dunk or close hook/scoop shot

is hard imo for even the best wings to be comparable to the best bigs but i could be convinced otherwise with data that showed my intuition being wrong

Duncan was more effective due to volume, but I'm pretty curious if anyone has synergy data to compare the 2. I know Kobe was pretty efficient in his own right in the post.

KobesScarf wrote:Kobe was better

Duncan was more productive

This.

capfan33 wrote:Duncan was more effective due to volume, but I'm pretty curious if anyone has synergy data to compare the 2. I know Kobe was pretty efficient in his own right in the post.

Not at home right now, but I do (2005-2012)

Kobe more efficient, Duncan triple the volume.

tsherkin wrote:Am inclined to say Duncan. Kobe had good post play for a wing, but he didn't use it in anything like the volume that Duncan did. Tim was known for his polished fundamentals.

I would, however, like to see if we have any per possession data from Duncan's peak to see how the two match up in terms of total possessions used, scoring efficiency and passing.

synergy

Kobe 08-10

08
275 possessions 1.022ppp
333 poss 1.072ppp including passes

06
372 possessions 1.030ppp
455 poss 1.062ppp including passes

07
531 possessions 0.962ppp
704 poss 1.049ppp including passes

Tim duncan 05-07

05
762 possessions 0.904ppp
927 poss 0.964ppp including passes

06
810 possessions 0.914ppp
1010 poss 0.892ppp including passes

07
810 possessions 0.952ppp
1209 poss 0.955ppp including passes

Duncans numbers look low because the averages were different back then, but it still grades out as super elite in league average. Kobes obv are absurd lol

falcolombardi wrote:by definition a wing posting up has more lines of defense to work against (as there is a center behind usually on top of the man guarding him) so he usually has to rrly more in post jumpshots than getting the chance of a dunk or close hook/scoop shot

is hard imo for even the best wings to be comparable to the best bigs but i could be convinced otherwise with data that showed my intuition being wrong

That's a good observation, Falco, about a wing posting up having to work against more lines of defense.

So it definitely is hard for even the best Wings to be comparable to the best Bigs. Yet the stats in MyUniBrow's post below (if they are accurate), show that Kobe scored an average of 1.04 ppp between 2006-2008 compared to Duncan's 0.92 ppp between 2005-07.

Jaivl said he has numbers from 2005-2012, so I'd love to see what he has when he posts them.

cupcakesnake wrote:I'm all for celebrating the beauty that is Kobe's post game. But I'm stopping short of saying he's "better" or especially "more effective" than any of the most effective post-up bigs of all-time.

Please see MyUniBrow's post below too.

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

Spoiler:

Kobe 08-10

08
275 possessions 1.022ppp
333 poss 1.072ppp including passes

06
372 possessions 1.030ppp
455 poss 1.062ppp including passes

07
531 possessions 0.962ppp
704 poss 1.049ppp including passes

Tim duncan 05-07

05
762 possessions 0.904ppp
927 poss 0.964ppp including passes

06
810 possessions 0.914ppp
1010 poss 0.892ppp including passes

07
810 possessions 0.952ppp
1209 poss 0.955ppp including passes

Duncans numbers look low because the averages were different back then, but it still grades out as super elite in league average. Kobes obv are absurd lol

LAL1947 wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:by definition a wing posting up has more lines of defense to work against (as there is a center behind usually on top of the man guarding him) so he usually has to rrly more in post jumpshots than getting the chance of a dunk or close hook/scoop shot

is hard imo for even the best wings to be comparable to the best bigs but i could be convinced otherwise with data that showed my intuition being wrong

That's a good observation, Falco, about a wing posting up having to work against more lines of defense.

So it definitely is hard for even the best Wings to be comparable to the best Bigs. Yet the stats in MyUniBrow's post below (if they are accurate), show that Kobe scored an average of 1.04 ppp between 2006-2008 compared to Duncan's 0.92 ppp between 2005-07.

cupcakesnake wrote:I'm all for celebrating the beauty that is Kobe's post game. But I'm stopping short of saying he's "better" or especially "more effective" than any of the most effective post-up bigs of all-time.

Please see MyUniBrow's post below too.

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

Spoiler:

Kobe 08-10

08
275 possessions 1.022ppp
333 poss 1.072ppp including passes

06
372 possessions 1.030ppp
455 poss 1.062ppp including passes

07
531 possessions 0.962ppp
704 poss 1.049ppp including passes

Tim duncan 05-07

05
762 possessions 0.904ppp
927 poss 0.964ppp including passes

06
810 possessions 0.914ppp
1010 poss 0.892ppp including passes

07
810 possessions 0.952ppp
1209 poss 0.955ppp including passes

Duncans numbers look low because the averages were different back then, but it still grades out as super elite in league average. Kobes obv are absurd lol

I don’t wanna make it seem like Duncan’s aren’t impressive lol, average ppp was lower in the 2000s so it’s a 90th percentile season, so itd translate among the very best today

90th percentile by synergy stats is really good, pretty consistent with best post player in the league type energy

MyUniBroDavis wrote:I don’t wanna make it seem like Duncan’s aren’t impressive lol, average ppp was lower in the 2000s so it’s a 90th percentile season, so itd translate among the very best today

90th percentile by synergy stats is really good, pretty consistent with best post player in the league type energy

Don't worry, you're good. I didn't take your post to mean that Duncan's stats weren't impressive... and at the end you pointed out that Duncan still grades out as elite compared to league average. So I took your post at face value, i.e., Kobe's numbers were higher than Duncan's but on lower volume.

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

tsherkin wrote:Am inclined to say Duncan. Kobe had good post play for a wing, but he didn't use it in anything like the volume that Duncan did. Tim was known for his polished fundamentals.

I would, however, like to see if we have any per possession data from Duncan's peak to see how the two match up in terms of total possessions used, scoring efficiency and passing.

synergy

Kobe 08-10

08
275 possessions 1.022ppp
333 poss 1.072ppp including passes

06
372 possessions 1.030ppp
455 poss 1.062ppp including passes

07
531 possessions 0.962ppp
704 poss 1.049ppp including passes

Tim duncan 05-07

05
762 possessions 0.904ppp
927 poss 0.964ppp including passes

06
810 possessions 0.914ppp
1010 poss 0.892ppp including passes

07
810 possessions 0.952ppp
1209 poss 0.955ppp including passes

Duncans numbers look low because the averages were different back then, but it still grades out as super elite in league average. Kobes obv are absurd lol

Super impressive numbers for Kobe here.

homecourtloss wrote:

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

tsherkin wrote:Am inclined to say Duncan. Kobe had good post play for a wing, but he didn't use it in anything like the volume that Duncan did. Tim was known for his polished fundamentals.

I would, however, like to see if we have any per possession data from Duncan's peak to see how the two match up in terms of total possessions used, scoring efficiency and passing.

synergy

Kobe 08-10

08
275 possessions 1.022ppp
333 poss 1.072ppp including passes

06
372 possessions 1.030ppp
455 poss 1.062ppp including passes

07
531 possessions 0.962ppp
704 poss 1.049ppp including passes

Tim duncan 05-07

05
762 possessions 0.904ppp
927 poss 0.964ppp including passes

06
810 possessions 0.914ppp
1010 poss 0.892ppp including passes

07
810 possessions 0.952ppp
1209 poss 0.955ppp including passes

Duncans numbers look low because the averages were different back then, but it still grades out as super elite in league average. Kobes obv are absurd lol

Super impressive numbers for Kobe here.

It’s good in 07 too, 201 poss 1.035ppp

To put in perspective, league avg ppp on post ups in 2022 is 0.94ppp, in 2016 it was 0.84ppp.

Duncan, dude used the glass and had good results