Patrick Ewing with a ring + FMVP

[Ursusamericanus]

Hypothetically, let's say the Knicks beat the Rockets in 1994 and Ewing wins FMVP.

Where does he rank all-time? His accolades would be:

1x NBA Champion
1x FMVP
11x All-star (3x starter)
2x Olympic gold medalist
1984 ROY
1x All-NBA 1st
6x All-NBA 2nd
3x All-NBA Defensive 2nd
Top 50, Top 75 selection
1x NCAA champion

[Cavsfansince84]

Him hitting a few more shots in game 7 of 94 would not move him up that much on my list. Maybe 29-30 to 26-28. Its different if you want to rewrite an entire playoff run or say he beats the Bulls in 93 then the Suns in 93 but still doesn't get him near my top 20.

[Owly]

As ever I'd say this should depend on what actually changes in his play (won't speak much to popular perception but star/perceived star on champs do seem to get a boost) and that for him to deserve FMVP I would think he'd need to do quite a bit better (the win is easily attainable, but, even assuming it has to go to a Knick, Harper has a terrific series whilst Ewing's hideous shooting really harms his value (obviously boxscore doesn't quantify all D etc).

As one quick and dirty example (non-minute weighted) of the boxscore deficit
Harper: average of games BPM 8.414285714
Ewing: -0.885714286

[JordansBulls]

Technically from the draft of 1985 it was to be the Ewing era instead of what it actually became the Jordan era.

[SelfishPlayer]

Patrick Ewing averaged more turnovers than assists for his entire career. He may not be a top 50 player at this point.

[Ginoboleee]

Him hitting a few more shots in game 7 of 94 would not move him up that much on my list. Maybe 29-30 to 26-28. Its different if you want to rewrite an entire playoff run or say he beats the Bulls in 93 then the Suns in 93 but still doesn't get him near my top 20.

This sounds right.

Patrick Ewing averaged more turnovers than assists for his entire career. He may not be a top 50 player at this point.

This sounds a bit simplistic and too critical.
But probably more than a bit of painful truth in there as well.

[70sFan]

Patrick Ewing averaged more turnovers than assists for his entire career. He may not be a top 50 player at this point.

So did Hakeem, do you have him outside top 50 as well?

[Ginoboleee]

Patrick Ewing averaged more turnovers than assists for his entire career. He may not be a top 50 player at this point.

So did Hakeem, do you have him outside top 50 as well?

Classic.

[SelfishPlayer]

Patrick Ewing averaged more turnovers than assists for his entire career. He may not be a top 50 player at this point.

So did Hakeem, do you have him outside top 50 as well?

Hakeem averaged more assists than turnovers during his championship years.

[NbaAllDay]

If he did everything exactly the same but ended up with a Ring and MVP (let's assume his teammates played better in one of the seasons) then exactly the same because if you aren't any better of a player Rings shouldn't really change that. Even though they do for aot of people.

[70sFan]

Patrick Ewing averaged more turnovers than assists for his entire career. He may not be a top 50 player at this point.

So did Hakeem, do you have him outside top 50 as well?

Hakeem averaged more assists than turnovers during his championship years.

So only 4 years in his career is enough to have him in top 10, but Ewing outside top 50?

[Ginoboleee]

So did Hakeem, do you have him outside top 50 as well?

Hakeem averaged more assists than turnovers during his championship years.

So only 4 years in his career is enough to have him in top 10, but Ewing outside top 50?

70sFan with an effective efficient reply.
70sFan, I have a couple of questions for you if you don't mind.

Are you suggesting that the overall standing between Dream and Ewing is so close that they should be closely ranked?

Or are you focusing on how this particular measure (Turn>Asst) seems to be applied in an inconsistent manner here regarding evaluations? With a little bit of bad news in one case being highlighted, and a little bid of bad news in the other case being overlooked.

[70sFan]

Hakeem averaged more assists than turnovers during his championship years.

So only 4 years in his career is enough to have him in top 10, but Ewing outside top 50?

70sFan with an effective efficient reply.
70sFan, I have a couple of questions for you if you don't mind.

Are you suggesting that the overall standing between Dream and Ewing is so close that they should be closely ranked?

Or are you focusing on how this particular measure (Turn>Asst) seems to be applied in an inconsistent manner here regarding evaluations? With a little bit of bad news in one case being highlighted, and a little bid of bad news in the other case being overlooked.

More the second one, I never understand how people can use such a simplistic approach against certain players, while ignoring it in other instances.

The first one is more complicated, but I will agree in some way. I think that Hakeem was definitely a better player than Ewing and had clearly a better career, but the gap between them doesn't justify 40+ spots of difference.

[Ginoboleee]

So only 4 years in his career is enough to have him in top 10, but Ewing outside top 50?

70sFan with an effective efficient reply.
70sFan, I have a couple of questions for you if you don't mind.

Are you suggesting that the overall standing between Dream and Ewing is so close that they should be closely ranked?

Or are you focusing on how this particular measure (Turn>Asst) seems to be applied in an inconsistent manner here regarding evaluations? With a little bit of bad news in one case being highlighted, and a little bid of bad news in the other case being overlooked.

More the second one, I never understand how people can use such a simplistic approach against certain players, while ignoring it in other instances.

The first one is more complicated, but I will agree in some way. I think that Hakeem was definitely a better player than Ewing and had clearly a better career, but the gap between them doesn't justify 40+ spots of difference.

Regarding the bolded statement, I have a few dozen Psychology books I could recommend on Emotions, Attitudes, Irrationality, and Decision-Making.
Bottom line (to quote Charlton Heston in Soylent Green) "it's made out of people!"

[penbeast0]

Hakeem averaged more assists than turnovers during his championship years.

So only 4 years in his career is enough to have him in top 10, but Ewing outside top 50?

70sFan with an effective efficient reply.
70sFan, I have a couple of questions for you if you don't mind.

Are you suggesting that the overall standing between Dream and Ewing is so close that they should be closely ranked?

Or are you focusing on how this particular measure (Turn>Asst) seems to be applied in an inconsistent manner here regarding evaluations? With a little bit of bad news in one case being highlighted, and a little bid of bad news in the other case being overlooked.

Hakeem's case for top 10 is based to a very large part on his two championships and the perception of him as a playoff dynamo. Ewing's not being a top 20 player is based to a very large part on his zero titles and the perception of him as someone who does not rise to the occasion in the playoffs. IF 85 switches enough that the Knicks win and Ewing is the consensus best player in the finals, that certainly closes the gap between them to a large degree.

[Ginoboleee]

So only 4 years in his career is enough to have him in top 10, but Ewing outside top 50?

70sFan with an effective efficient reply.
70sFan, I have a couple of questions for you if you don't mind.

Are you suggesting that the overall standing between Dream and Ewing is so close that they should be closely ranked?

Or are you focusing on how this particular measure (Turn>Asst) seems to be applied in an inconsistent manner here regarding evaluations? With a little bit of bad news in one case being highlighted, and a little bid of bad news in the other case being overlooked.

Hakeem's case for top 10 is based to a very large part on his two championships and the perception of him as a playoff dynamo. Ewing's not being a top 20 player is based to a very large part on his zero titles and the perception of him as someone who does not rise to the occasion in the playoffs. IF 85 switches enough that the Knicks win and Ewing is the consensus best player in the finals, that certainly closes the gap between them to a large degree.

Right, so insofar as a couple of rings by Dream and missed ring(s) by Ewing are driving these narratives (consciously or not as you rightfully suggest) then there is a potential fallacy at work.
But insofar as the distinction between these two is based more on Regular Season, or general Playoff success (not necessarily Chips) then there might still be a significant gap between the two that justify very different tiers.

[SelfishPlayer]

So did Hakeem, do you have him outside top 50 as well?

Hakeem averaged more assists than turnovers during his championship years.

So only 4 years in his career is enough to have him in top 10, but Ewing outside top 50?

Ewing always played a selfish turnover heavy style of basketball. Imagining him with a Finals MVP is an impossibility. The Knicks in reality made the Finals with him injured...

[Ginoboleee]

Hakeem averaged more assists than turnovers during his championship years.

So only 4 years in his career is enough to have him in top 10, but Ewing outside top 50?

Ewing always played a selfish turnover heavy style of basketball. Imagining him with a Finals MVP is an impossibility. The Knicks in reality made the Finals with him injured...

With all due respect, it is hard to believe you actually watched the Knicks in the 90s.
I assume that we are all emphasizing the Bulls/Rockets series, a bit less so on the Pacers/Heat/Spurs series from a few years later.

Starks makes that one baseline corner shot, Ewing gets his MVP, not complicated, not controversial.

For the Spurs Final and the Miracle (Semi-Legal) LJ 4-pointer, well, yes, by then a bit less Old Ewing seemed to be at least a temporary gain - after all it was how Simmons invented The Ewing Theory, which is rhetorically still in use to this day.

[70sFan]

Hakeem averaged more assists than turnovers during his championship years.

So only 4 years in his career is enough to have him in top 10, but Ewing outside top 50?

Ewing always played a selfish turnover heavy style of basketball. Imagining him with a Finals MVP is an impossibility. The Knicks in reality made the Finals with him injured...

Not trying to be disrespectful, but you have no idea what you're talking about. Ewing was way past his best in 1999, it has nothing to do with prime Patrick.

[homecourtloss]

So only 4 years in his career is enough to have him in top 10, but Ewing outside top 50?

Ewing always played a selfish turnover heavy style of basketball. Imagining him with a Finals MVP is an impossibility. The Knicks in reality made the Finals with him injured...

With all due respect, it is hard to believe you actually watched the Knicks in the 90s.
I assume that we are all emphasizing the Bulls/Rockets series, a bit less so on the Pacers/Heat/Spurs series from a few years later.

Starks makes that one baseline corner shot, Ewing gets his MVP, not complicated, not controversial.

For the Spurs Final and the Miracle (Semi-Legal) LJ 4-pointer, well, yes, by then a bit less Old Ewing seemed to be at least a temporary gain - after all it was how Simmons invented The Ewing Theory, which is rhetorically still in use to this day.

Starks making any number of open threes in game 7 gives the Knicks a probable title, but that wouldn’t change at all how Ewing played, so for me, nothing would change as far as Ewing’s ranking is concerned, but I’m sure the overall narrative about him would change, i.e., he’s a champion, he’s a FMVP, etc.

Something that would change his ranking is if he played better to lead the Knicks to the title. He was 6/20 in game 6. He scored 19 ppg on 39% TS in that series. But even that would be just one series albeit a head-to-head vs. an all-time great in Hakeem. He did play great defense, though, and overall, played with a lack of offensive talent, yet was competitive with the Bulls’ dynasty. Jordan played with a top 10 teammate in ‘91, ‘92, ‘93, ‘95 (partial), ‘96, ‘97, and ‘98. During this period, who was the best player Ewing played with? Knicks, with offensive talent lacking, took the Bulls to 7 in 1992 (total points scored even through 6 games ), led 2-0 in 1993 with Jordan going 3/18 in game 3 to be bailed out with 17 FTA and Pippen playing an immaculate game, and got some iffy calls against them in game 5. Imagine Ewing playing with a top 10 talent during this time—history’s narrative might have been much different. But then again, I thought the 1994 Jordanless Bulls overall outplayed the Knicks in 1994 (no clear separation at the very least), so who knows.