RealGM

Who do you think was the better player in their era?

Clearly Green to me. I have Draymond as a top 5 player 2x (2016, 2017) and arguably top 5 3x (2015, 2018, 2019). I don't think Rodman was ever top 10 in the league.

Ironically, I think Rodman would develop a three in this era.

Rodman is quite a bit better. Rodman is the better defender, and light years ahead on the boards.

I also rate Draymond as a much better player at his prime than Rodman, he had a legitimate argument for top 10 in the league a couple times where Rodman never was in that universe.

I'd personally pick Rodman, because his edge in rebounding is greater than Draymond's edge in playmaking for me, but it's really close & would depend on the composition of the rest of the team.

SickMother wrote:I'd personally pick Rodman, because his edge in rebounding is greater than Draymond's edge in playmaking for me, but it's really close & would depend on the composition of the rest of the team.

I feel like ~7 ast vs ~1 ast is a much greater gap than ~15 reb vs 8 reb, isn't it?

Like Rodman is a historically weak offensive player in almost every aspect, his only value there most of his career was offensive rebounding (obviously one of the best there but it's still just oreb).

Draymond in his prime was actually a very good offensive player, especially in the playoffs.

I don't think Rodman's game held up nearly as well in the playoffs either.

Draymond is a lot better. More dynamic, better defender, more impactful offensively. This is like comparing Manu Ginobili to someone like Rip Hamilton. One is a lot better but they have similar success.

PT416 wrote:Draymond is a lot better. More dynamic, better defender, more impactful offensively. This is like comparing Manu Ginobili to someone like Rip Hamilton. One is a lot better but they have similar success.

I strongly disagree. Rodman is on a short list for GOAT defenders, IMO. He was elite on the perimeter early in his career as more of a wing, then elite post defender/rebounder in the 2nd half of his career.

I think Rodman is a better passer than he gets credit for, or the stats say also.

moss_is_1 wrote:

PT416 wrote:Draymond is a lot better. More dynamic, better defender, more impactful offensively. This is like comparing Manu Ginobili to someone like Rip Hamilton. One is a lot better but they have similar success.

I strongly disagree. Rodman is on a short list for GOAT defenders, IMO. He was elite on the perimeter early in his career as more of a wing, then elite post defender/rebounder in the 2nd half of his career.

I think Rodman is a better passer than he gets credit for, or the stats say also.

Of the available metrics we have, it’s highly highly unlikely that even at his peak that Rodman was a more impactful defender than Draymond.

All around defense: Draymond
All around offense: Draymond as he could shoot once a upon a time and play-make

Really? One is almost coach on a floor, other flew to Las Vegas in middle of RS games…

SpreeS wrote:Really? One is almost coach on a floor, other flew to Las Vegas in middle of RS games…

True, Haslem is def better than Rodman.

RCM88x wrote:

SickMother wrote:I'd personally pick Rodman, because his edge in rebounding is greater than Draymond's edge in playmaking for me, but it's really close & would depend on the composition of the rest of the team.

I feel like ~7 ast vs ~1 ast is a much greater gap than ~15 reb vs 8 reb, isn't it?

Like Rodman is a historically weak offensive player in almost every aspect, his only value there most of his career was offensive rebounding (obviously one of the best there but it's still just oreb).

Draymond in his prime was actually a very good offensive player, especially in the playoffs.

I don't think Rodman's game held up nearly as well in the playoffs either.

I just don't see that big of a difference between their primes once we adjust for the pace difference between the early 1990s to mid 2010s. The DRtg being so close was no shocker, but I was definitely surprised that Rodman had such a sizable edge in ORtg considering the Bad Boys were nowhere near the offensive juggernaut of the Splash Bros...

Prime Draymond (2015-17) per 100
17.6 Pts | 13.9 FGA (.552 TS%, ~101 TS+) 12.6 Reb | 8.9 Ast | 112 ORtg | 99 DRtg
Prime Rodman (1990-92) per 100
13.5 Pts | 10.4 FGA (.568 TS%, ~106 TS+) 20.6 Reb | 2.1 Ast | 121 ORtg | 100 DRtg

Green has been better in the playoffs, no doubt, but Rodman played an important role on five title teams so its not like he tanked his squad's chances when the stakes were highest.

SickMother wrote:

RCM88x wrote:

SickMother wrote:I'd personally pick Rodman, because his edge in rebounding is greater than Draymond's edge in playmaking for me, but it's really close & would depend on the composition of the rest of the team.

I feel like ~7 ast vs ~1 ast is a much greater gap than ~15 reb vs 8 reb, isn't it?

Like Rodman is a historically weak offensive player in almost every aspect, his only value there most of his career was offensive rebounding (obviously one of the best there but it's still just oreb).

Draymond in his prime was actually a very good offensive player, especially in the playoffs.

I don't think Rodman's game held up nearly as well in the playoffs either.

I just don't see that big of a difference between their primes once we adjust for the pace difference between the early 1990s to mid 2010s. The DRtg being so close was no shocker, but I was definitely surprised that Rodman had such a sizable edge in ORtg considering the Bad Boys were nowhere near the offensive juggernaut of the Splash Bros...

Prime Draymond (2015-17) per 100
17.6 Pts | 13.9 FGA (.552 TS%, ~101 TS+) 12.6 Reb | 8.9 Ast | 112 ORtg | 99 DRtg
Prime Rodman (1990-92) per 100
13.5 Pts | 10.4 FGA (.568 TS%, ~106 TS+) 20.6 Reb | 2.1 Ast | 121 ORtg | 100 DRtg

Green has been better in the playoffs, no doubt, but Rodman played an important role on five title teams so its not like he tanked his squad's chances when the stakes were highest.

I don't know why you're using '15 instead of '18 and '19 other than to intentionally lower Draymonds numbers to better your argument.

RCM88x wrote:

SickMother wrote:I just don't see that big of a difference between their primes once we adjust for the pace difference between the early 1990s to mid 2010s. The DRtg being so close was no shocker, but I was definitely surprised that Rodman had such a sizable edge in ORtg considering the Bad Boys were nowhere near the offensive juggernaut of the Splash Bros...

Prime Draymond (2015-17) per 100
17.6 Pts | 13.9 FGA (.552 TS%, ~101 TS+) 12.6 Reb | 8.9 Ast | 112 ORtg | 99 DRtg
Prime Rodman (1990-92) per 100
13.5 Pts | 10.4 FGA (.568 TS%, ~106 TS+) 20.6 Reb | 2.1 Ast | 121 ORtg | 100 DRtg

Green has been better in the playoffs, no doubt, but Rodman played an important role on five title teams so its not like he tanked his squad's chances when the stakes were highest.

I don't know why you're using '15 instead of '18 and '19 other than to intentionally lower Draymonds numbers to better your argument.

Because 15-17 Green was pretty much better across the board than 17-19 Green...

Dray 15-17: 17.5 PER | .552 TS% | 27.8 WS | .172 WS/48
Dray 17-19: 15.2 PER | .535 TS% | 18.6 WS | .131 WS/48

Dray 15-17 (p/100): 17.6 Pts | 13.9 FGA (.552 TS%, ~101 TS+) 12.6 Reb | 8.9 Ast | 112 ORtg | 99 DRtg
Dray 17-19 (p/100): 14.3 Pts | 11.9 FGA (.535 TS%, ~96 TS+) 11.4 Reb | 10.5 Ast | 110 ORtg | 103 DRtg

Draymond.

Around 2016 and 2017 Draymond was a top 6-8 player in a LOADED league. Rodman simply never approached that level.

I think the fact that for those years Draymond was actually a significant asset on offense (playmaking obviously and shooting 40% from 3), should negate whatever edge you think Rodman has on defense (and it's debatable if he does).

It has to he Draymond because he is the better defender, the best pure passer, and had some scoring chops at his peak.

From 2015-2020, Draymond Green is 2nd in the NBA in Playoffs PIPM
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/j9xodj/from_20152020_playoffs_the_highest_rated_players/

This is significant because PIPM is too box-score dependent, yet someone like Draymond comes out looking so good in the metric, despite so much of what he does not showing up in the box-score.

It is not just PIPM of box-hybrid models that that are high on Draymond. From 2014-2019, Draymond lead the NBA in PS RAPTOR WAR.

From 15-17, Draymond is 2nd in PS AuPM/G.

And when you consider that Golden State's defense improves from the RS to PS more than almost any dynasty ever, I think it makes sense to look towards Draymond for a lot of Golden State's success.



As a matter of fact, RAPTOR projections considered Draymond to be the NBA player who improved most from the RS to PS in the NBA during that time frame at a whopping 1.4 points per 100 possessions. The next most improved player was Lebron who was at 0.9 pts per 100 possessions. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-our-raptor-metric-works/

According to AuPM/G, which has data going back to 96-97, no player has improved more in from the RS to PS in their career than Draymond Green. As mentioned in the article, "among players with at least five qualifying runs, Green has the largest improvement in AuPM history. And this isn’t from slow-rolling the regular season either. In the seven seasons he’s played in the postseason, Green’s posted a hefty +3.5 AuPM per game in the regular season and then a whopping +4.7 in the playoffs. That’s like going from the sixth-best player in the league to the second." https://backpicks.com/page/6/

Kevin Pelton also wrote an article about how Draymond was statistically the 2nd biggest playoff riser during some specific time period, but I cannot find it

If you want numbers that look at the pure plus-minus side of things (and does not include anything pertaining to the box-score), I should note, Draymond looks arguably better...

Draymond is #1 in 14-18 PS RAPM, and #1 in 15-19 PS RAPM.

If we know GSW's offense declines in the PS, but their defense makes one of the biggest improvements ever, and we know that Draymond has been the captain of those GSW offenses, and all the data we have suggests he is among the biggest improvers in performance come PS time, I will put my money on him.

Rodman was great, but I've seen nothing to suggest he was THAT level of transformative force where you would argue he was a clear top 10 player in the league like Draymond.

Whether it be

PIPM
AuPM 2.0/G
RAPTOR
Estimaed RPM (for older guys)

I see no evidence for the idea Rodman peaked higher either.

ceiling raiser wrote:Clearly Green to me. I have Draymond as a top 5 player 2x (2016, 2017) and arguably top 5 3x (2015, 2018, 2019). I don't think Rodman was ever top 10 in the league.

Ironically, I think Rodman would develop a three in this era.

last i checked, gsw lost the 2016 finals and got absoutely crushed by lebron. where exactly was draymond in that picture, as a defensive specialist that is supposedly so good, he gets to be top5 in the league mostly off of defense?

kazyv wrote:

ceiling raiser wrote:Clearly Green to me. I have Draymond as a top 5 player 2x (2016, 2017) and arguably top 5 3x (2015, 2018, 2019). I don't think Rodman was ever top 10 in the league.

Ironically, I think Rodman would develop a three in this era.

last i checked, gsw lost the 2016 finals and got absoutely crushed by lebron. where exactly was draymond in that picture, as a defensive specialist that is supposedly so good, he gets to be top5 in the league off of it?

Tbf lebron over those last 3 games became like the best defender ever out of now where lol, and the cavs offense had basically blown through everyone else and struggled the most with the cavs

Idk about top 5, I see the argument but I do think there are just limitations to his game offensively that I can’t put him there, but as a defender playoff draymond km pretty sure comes out as pretty blatantly the best defender of his era

kazyv wrote:

ceiling raiser wrote:Clearly Green to me. I have Draymond as a top 5 player 2x (2016, 2017) and arguably top 5 3x (2015, 2018, 2019). I don't think Rodman was ever top 10 in the league.

Ironically, I think Rodman would develop a three in this era.

last i checked, gsw lost the 2016 finals and got absoutely crushed by lebron. where exactly was draymond in that picture, as a defensive specialist that is supposedly so good, he gets to be top5 in the league mostly off of defense?

First time EVER I've seen somebody hold the 2016 Finals AGAINST Draymond.

Where was he? Dropping a 32-15-9 and scoring as many threes as Curry and Klay combined lol, are you kidding me?

Jaivl wrote:

kazyv wrote:

ceiling raiser wrote:Clearly Green to me. I have Draymond as a top 5 player 2x (2016, 2017) and arguably top 5 3x (2015, 2018, 2019). I don't think Rodman was ever top 10 in the league.

Ironically, I think Rodman would develop a three in this era.

last i checked, gsw lost the 2016 finals and got absoutely crushed by lebron. where exactly was draymond in that picture, as a defensive specialist that is supposedly so good, he gets to be top5 in the league mostly off of defense?

First time EVER I've seen somebody hold the 2016 Finals AGAINST Draymond.

Where was he? Dropping a 32-15-9 and scoring as many threes as Curry and Klay combined lol, are you kidding me?

basketball is zero-sum. He LOST therefore he played like ****.