What is the minimum number of seasons a player has to play to be the Goat in your eyes

[coastalmarker99]

Let's Say in a hypothetical scenario.

Wilt wins 8 straight rings from 1960 to 1967 then retires afterwards while averaging over 35 PPG and 25 rebounds for his entire career due to being bored with basketball.

Or let's say that Kareem wins 5 to 6 rings to go along with his 4 to 5 regular season MVPs from 1969 to 1977 then he retires afterwards to focus sorely on his faith.




Would the both of them in these instances be considered the Goat by most people nowadays despite playing eight seasons compared to other Goat players who would have far more seasons under their belt?

[MyUniBroDavis]

If a dude came in from the street, went to the worst team in the league and got them to 82-0 and a chip going 16-0 averaging 32-10-15-3-4 on 60/50/75 and then dipped out into the hall of fame he’d be the GOAT for me (2k)

[jasonxxx102]

What if top 10 all time player wins 7 more rings and retires because he was bored.... what a pointless question lol

[coastalmarker99]

What if top 10 all time player wins 7 more rings and retires because he was bored.... what a pointless question lol

Wilt in this example would miss out on the last seven years of his career in which he won an MVP and finals MVP while also winning countless individual accolades and it would really hurt his career totals.


So it's not a point less question

[jasonxxx102]

What if top 10 all time player wins 7 more rings and retires because he was bored.... what a pointless question lol

Wilt in this example would miss out on the last seven years of his career in which he won an MVP and finals MVP while also winning countless individual accolades and it would really hurt his career totals.


So it's not a point less question

You think a few years at the end of his career would matter more than 7 straight rings of which he probably wins the majority FMVPs? I mean cmon now.

[Dutchball97]

Anything less than a decade is going to be a hard sell. Jordan has about 10 MVP level years (87-93 and 96-98) with a couple of the other seasons increasing his value even more and there are plenty of people on here who think he still doesn't have the longevity to be the GOAT. Even Magic and Bird played for over a decade although not at a MVP level every year.

The only case where I could see someone have a GOAT case with less than 10 seasons is if something unrealistic is going on like having like 8 straight 91 MJ type seasons, while breaking every single game/single season records possible. The scenarios with Wilt and Kareem in the OP wouldn't really be in the conversation imo, although Wilt's run would probably get mythologized more than he already is now.

[jasonxxx102]

Anything less than a decade is going to be a hard sell. Jordan has about 10 MVP level years (87-93 and 96-98) with a couple of the other seasons increasing his value even more and there are plenty of people on here who think he still doesn't have the longevity to be the GOAT. Even Magic and Bird played for over a decade although not at a MVP level every year.

The only case where I could see someone have a GOAT case with less than 10 seasons is if something unrealistic is going on like having like 8 straight 91 MJ type seasons, while breaking every single game/single season records possible. The scenarios with Wilt and Kareem in the OP wouldn't really be in the conversation imo, although Wilt's run would probably get mythologized more than he already is now.

Wilt with 8 rings in 9 seasons and a handful of FMVPs with his absolute statistical dominance isn't enough to be in the goat conversation but just 1 extra season would do it?

I even think Wilt is pretty overrated historically but I don't know how you could argue against that level of dominance

[Dutchball97]

Anything less than a decade is going to be a hard sell. Jordan has about 10 MVP level years (87-93 and 96-98) with a couple of the other seasons increasing his value even more and there are plenty of people on here who think he still doesn't have the longevity to be the GOAT. Even Magic and Bird played for over a decade although not at a MVP level every year.

The only case where I could see someone have a GOAT case with less than 10 seasons is if something unrealistic is going on like having like 8 straight 91 MJ type seasons, while breaking every single game/single season records possible. The scenarios with Wilt and Kareem in the OP wouldn't really be in the conversation imo, although Wilt's run would probably get mythologized more than he already is now.

Wilt with 8 rings in 9 seasons and a handful of FMVPs with his absolute statistical dominance isn't enough to be in the goat conversation but just 1 extra season would do it?

I even think Wilt is pretty overrated historically but I don't know how you could argue against that level of dominance

It's not a hard line that 10 is enough and 9 isn't. I'm just not a ringcounter. Maybe if someone like Wilt won every title convincingly, while also being seen as by far the best player you could make a case but if Wilt suddenly dominated the 60s with nobody else stacking up what do you think would happen to how the era is seen now? There are already too many people thinking the 60s were just a bunch of milkmen and like at best 5-10 actually good players, if Wilt stood out head and shoulders he'd probably become just another Mikan.

[Statlanta]

7 seasons, 4 MVPs and 4 titles would be my minimum viable product for the GOAT

[jasonxxx102]

Anything less than a decade is going to be a hard sell. Jordan has about 10 MVP level years (87-93 and 96-98) with a couple of the other seasons increasing his value even more and there are plenty of people on here who think he still doesn't have the longevity to be the GOAT. Even Magic and Bird played for over a decade although not at a MVP level every year.

The only case where I could see someone have a GOAT case with less than 10 seasons is if something unrealistic is going on like having like 8 straight 91 MJ type seasons, while breaking every single game/single season records possible. The scenarios with Wilt and Kareem in the OP wouldn't really be in the conversation imo, although Wilt's run would probably get mythologized more than he already is now.

Wilt with 8 rings in 9 seasons and a handful of FMVPs with his absolute statistical dominance isn't enough to be in the goat conversation but just 1 extra season would do it?

I even think Wilt is pretty overrated historically but I don't know how you could argue against that level of dominance

It's not a hard line that 10 is enough and 9 isn't. I'm just not a ringcounter. Maybe if someone like Wilt won every title convincingly, while also being seen as by far the best player you could make a case but if Wilt suddenly dominated the 60s with nobody else stacking up what do you think would happen to how the era is seen now? There are already too many people thinking the 60s were just a bunch of milkmen and like at best 5-10 actually good players, if Wilt stood out head and shoulders he'd probably become just another Mikan.

I guess I just assumed based on OP that Wilt is the best player by a long shot if he's winning 8/9 rings and averaging 35/25 in the finals

[DQuinn1575]

What if top 10 all time player wins 7 more rings and retires because he was bored.... what a pointless question lol

What is a guy won 11 out of 13, lost 1 because he was hurt, and lost the other to the greatest team of all-time up to that point?
Or maybe that's a pointless question.

[jasonxxx102]

What if top 10 all time player wins 7 more rings and retires because he was bored.... what a pointless question lol

What is a guy won 11 out of 13, lost 1 because he was hurt, and lost the other to the greatest team of all-time up to that point?
Or maybe that's a pointless question.

If Wilt and Bill had the exact same careers and the only thing you changed was the number of rings Wilt has there is no question who is regarded more highly. Bill is an all time great player but he wasn't Wilt dominant. Bill was nowhere in the same universe offensively.

[ty 4191]

If Wilt played on the Celtics from 1960-1969, there would be ZERO question as to who the GOAT is. Switch his teams with Russell's.

They'd have won the championship every single year, he'd have (at the very least) 5-6 MVP's in 10 years, and would have put up numbers and records so ridiculous it would be laughable.

[ty 4191]

Would the both of them in these instances be considered the Goat by most people nowadays despite playing eight seasons compared to other Goat players who would have far more seasons under their belt?

I agree with someone else who said 7. If Jokic, for example, played his first 5 years at the level he's played his last two, he'd be a GOAT candidate, for sure, IMO.

Last 161 games (2 seasons- including playoffs): 27.1/12.3/7.8 with 35 (!) triple doubles.

And no, I don't care about "rings" very much. That's mostly luck plus timing, and also almost entirely a function of coaching, management, ownership, and strength and depth of teammates.

[Texas Chuck]

I don't believe in arbitrary criteria so I refuse to put a number on this. I only evaluate players as their careers actually play out. But Mikan didn't play a lot of years, and I think there is a case if one wants to make it that he is GOAT. In terms of dominating in-era competition, Russell is his only real equal.

[Ginoboleee]

And no, I don't care about "rings" very much. That's mostly luck plus timing, and also almost entirely a function of coaching, management, ownership, and strength and depth of teammates.

I'm new here.
But until this quote it was starting to feel really awkward too.
Nice to know that somebody agrees, and I appreciate the concise wording so that I can quote you moving forward!

I wonder why so many people who post on this board seem to REALLY be into Rings?!

Using team-based outcomes to inform an individual-level assessment seems a bit foolish, especially when taken to extremes.

To answer the question of the thread, my answer is "however many seasons it takes to have more great seasons than MJ, with a minimum of failed seasons" - and good luck with that! LeBron is not even really that close, all things considered.

[Texas Chuck]

Using team-based outcomes to inform an individual-level assessment seems a bit foolish, especially when taken to extremes.

The obvious counter argument is that its a team endeavor and team success is ultimately all that matters, not amassing personal statistics/recognition. Take Tim Duncan or Bill Russell. Both had they chosen that path could have gone for a lot more individual statistical production and individual glory. But its highly unlikely their teams win as much as they did had they chosen this path. Wilt is very instructive to us here--those seasons he took a more team-centric approach his numbers stop looking like video game numbers, but his teams were more successful. Which is more valuable?

Now there are 10 players on the court and a time and countless permutations of lineups. We never get a sample size large enough to accurately measure one individual's impact on the game despite what some of the stat guys insist their stats can deliver. So its impossible to know how much winning to attribute to one player.

But suggesting that one's TS% is more important than how competitive one's team is is just not something I'm ever going to get behind. And it if leads certain posters to dismiss me as RINGZZZZZ guy so be it.

[ronnymac2]

Minimum 20 seasons.

[ty 4191]

Using team-based outcomes to inform an individual-level assessment seems a bit foolish, especially when taken to extremes.

The obvious counter argument is that its a team endeavor and team success is ultimately all that matters.

And it if leads certain posters to dismiss me as RINGZZZZZ guy so be it.

And here's my counter argument to your "RINGZZ" premise and stance:

Jordan didn't win anything until they built a Dynasty around him. Neither did Wilt, nor has Jokic.

Michael Jordan through age 27, Playoffs, before they built a Dynasty around him:

-Playoffs (53 games)
-Team Record: 24-29
-Team Series Record: 5-6
-3 first round exits, including 2 first round sweeps
-Two ECF

Jordan's line: 36.2/6.9/6.7 on +4.7% rTS. Led all players those years in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs.

Nikola Jokic through age 26, Playoffs:

-Playoffs: (48 games)
-Team Record: 21-27
-Team Series Record: 4-4
-1 first round exit
-1 WCF

Jokic's line: 26.4/11.5/6.4 on +4.1 rTS%. Top 3 player in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs.

Wilt Chamberlain through age 28, Playoffs:

-Playoffs: (47 games)
-Team Record: 21-26
-Team Series Record: 4-5
-Much shorter playoffs structure, so they're incompatible. Still:

Wilt's line: 33.4/26.0/3.2 on +4.7 tTS%. Clearly the MVP in the playoffs in all advanced and traditional metrics.

What did Michael Jordan win before they built a Superteam around him, while also bringing in the greatest coach of all time?

What did Wilt win, while he had coaches (that got fired or resigned every year or so) 1960-1965? What did he win before he got great coaches, teammates, ownership, management around him?

Or maybe, just maybe, it's not how great YOU are, but how great your teammates, coaches, management, ownership are?

[Texas Chuck]

Or maybe, just maybe, it's not how great YOU are, but how great your teammates, coaches, management, ownership are? [/b]

I mean I mentioned it was a team endeavor so of course you need help to win.

But if Mike never experienced playoff success and if Jokic doesn't experience more then yeah nobody should be considering them for GOAT imo.

And Wilt certainly isn't GOAT because he got outplayed by Russell too many times. And no, that wasn't about the rest of the Celtics over the rest of the Warriors/Lakers. It was because Russell understood what the goal was and Wilt often was concerned about individual glory over team success.