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Who was better at their respective sport?

If we go with ped Barry then its close and I might give the edge to him. If we go to pre peds I'd go with Shaq but still close. Bonds defense dropped off in his best hitting years.

Open disclosure: I don't care about PEDs. I believe most elite athletes use them. I think basketball's attitude towards PEDs resembles baseball's before media shaming caused them to reverse course.

Due to investigations into Bonds we have a clear timeline for when he started juicing. It was after the 1998 season.

Pre-roids Barry Bonds easily. Bonds in his best those years equaled Shaq's 2000 campaign and that was when he was competing against mostly guys roiding.

Once he went on the juice in 1999 he became basically a video game character. It is difficult for me to describe how great he was on the stuff. You can credibly argue he was 20-30% better than the next best hitter in baseball. Teams openly gave up trying to pitch to him. I've never seen anything live it. I've seen NFL games ocassionaly refuse to throw against the top corner in the league but that was only on a single game basis. For Bonds it lasted a half decade +. And was dominating the sport up until he was blacklisted from it.

His blacklisting was also shameful. MLB allowed and encouraged it. They profited from it. For them to thumb their nose at Bonds and others makes MLB owners scum.

He's an enormous **** by all accounts. Almost no one who played with him enjoyed him. But he was absurd.

Man this thread inspired me to look at Bonds stats. His roid years are just absurd. Look at 2004. Teams intentionally walked him 120 times. #2 was Thome, an ATG hitter for non-baseball fans, 26 times. 2002 Bonds. HR every 8.8 at bats. #2 11.3 per at bat. His rate doubled up all but nine hitters in baseball that year.

Pre-Roid Bond led 3 times despite most of the hitters being on it. Just a cartoon character.

I'm not a baseball expert but I think Barry was probably the goat. But even if he wasn't there are way more ATG baseball players than NBA players so just being like a top 15 guy might be the equivalent of a top 5 guy in basketball.

HeartBreakKid wrote:I'm not a baseball expert but I think Barry was probably the goat. But even if he wasn't there are way more ATG baseball players than NBA players so just being like a top 15 guy might be the equivalent of a top 5 guy in basketball.

You can very credibly argue he was the GOAT baseball position player. And the history of the sport is much longer than basketball.

For non-baseball fans, https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bondsba01.shtml

Just scroll to the bottom of his page and look for the leaders in stats like (Wins, OPS, HR per AB). This gives you an idea of how great he was as a hitter. Then look at his fielding stats. LF is not a critical position for fielding but for most of his career he was the best fielding LF, and even up until the end he was decent because he was so smart at positioning which allowed him to compensate for his poor arm/mobility.

I'd say Shaq's career in basketball history is close to maybe Mike Schmidt among baseball position players. While Bonds is credibly the GOAT.

sp6r=underrated wrote:Man this thread inspired me to look at Bonds stats. His roid years are just absurd. Look at 2004. Teams intentionally walked him 120 times. #2 was Thome, an ATG hitter for non-baseball fans, 26 times. 2002 Bonds. HR every 8.8 at bats. #2 11.3 per at bat. His rate doubled up all but nine hitters in baseball that year.

Pre-Roid Bond led 3 times despite most of the hitters being on it. Just a cartoon character.

I remember going to a game that year, excited to watch Bonds swing, and instead I witnessed history made: the opponent intentionally walked him four times in one game. Just absolutely refused to pitch to him, no matter the inning/situation. Not sure if it's been done since, but in the moment it was just crazy. Bonds' dominance is almost impossible to exaggerate.

I never suspected Shaq of steroid use. I did suspect LeBron of steroid use.

Tim Lehrbach wrote:

sp6r=underrated wrote:Man this thread inspired me to look at Bonds stats. His roid years are just absurd. Look at 2004. Teams intentionally walked him 120 times. #2 was Thome, an ATG hitter for non-baseball fans, 26 times. 2002 Bonds. HR every 8.8 at bats. #2 11.3 per at bat. His rate doubled up all but nine hitters in baseball that year.

Pre-Roid Bond led 3 times despite most of the hitters being on it. Just a cartoon character.

I remember going to a game that year, excited to watch Bonds swing, and instead I witnessed history made: the opponent intentionally walked him four times in one game. Just absolutely refused to pitch to him, no matter the inning/situation. Not sure if it's been done since, but in the moment it was just crazy. Bonds' dominance is almost impossible to exaggerate.

A pre-Roids Bonds got walked once with the bases loaded. No one gets intentionally walked. Teams were just terrified of the dude




This has only happened 8 times in the history of baseball. The first one happened in 1881.

Tim Lehrbach wrote:

sp6r=underrated wrote:Man this thread inspired me to look at Bonds stats. His roid years are just absurd. Look at 2004. Teams intentionally walked him 120 times. #2 was Thome, an ATG hitter for non-baseball fans, 26 times. 2002 Bonds. HR every 8.8 at bats. #2 11.3 per at bat. His rate doubled up all but nine hitters in baseball that year.

Pre-Roid Bond led 3 times despite most of the hitters being on it. Just a cartoon character.

I remember going to a game that year, excited to watch Bonds swing, and instead I witnessed history made: the opponent intentionally walked him four times in one game. Just absolutely refused to pitch to him, no matter the inning/situation. Not sure if it's been done since, but in the moment it was just crazy. Bonds' dominance is almost impossible to exaggerate.

I agree that it became somewhat absurd with the degree he was being intentionally walked though I also felt it was semi absurd that he was allowed to basically stand right over home plate with full armor over his arm to protect him from being hbp. That is part of what led to so many ibb's imo. I don't think that should be allowed(not sure if it still is).

He was also a comically bad hitting coach because he had no useful advice on how to hit the ball. It just came easy to him. There is a famous story from an all star game were Bonds was calling out the pitch from the bench (Curveball, slider, fastball) so quickly even the other all stars marveled at how quickly he picked up pitches.

Bonds, easily. Him being the GOAT in a sport that's been around for more than 120 years is like if some basketball player had nearly undisputed GOAT status in the year 2080. Pretty insane.

Sadly I don't suspect Shaq ever took the game seriously enough to take performance-enhancing drugs. Imagine if he had. Imagine Shaq was so obsessed with winning that he took, like, moderate amounts of TRT in his 30s for longevity and maybe some GH in his 20s for recovery from injury. Even crazier, imagine deployment of EPO so his cardio was basically 2000 levels and he played consistent defense.

I just want to add that Barry Bonds' voice does not match his build or countenance. The first time I heard him in an interview, there was such an incongruence that I thought it was a voiceover or sped up 1.25X.

So Bonds was a detested player in his career outside of his teams. He just was extremely unlikeable. Imagine if Jordan didn't put on an act and have the Nike marketing campaign. And his career started before interleague play. This is from one of his first visits to yankee stadium. What a moon shot. The crowd turns from booing to cheers back to booing quickly.



here is a colleague of his bombs



Dude hit so many blasts people would sit in canoes to catch his home runs in the water.

I'm sort of surprised how many people are calling Bonds the goat here. As someone who started following mlb in the late 80's and sort of stopped in the 00's I never felt like Bonds being the goat gained that much traction(which obviously had something to do with the backlash against perceived ped users and Bonds being disliked even before that) but even so I think I saw a list that espn did recently and he came in 8th just for position players. So obviously even lower if pitchers are included.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:I'm sort of surprised how many people are calling Bonds the goat here. As someone who started following mlb in the late 80's and sort of stopped in the 00's I never felt like Bonds being the goat gained that much traction(which obviously had something to do with the backlash against perceived ped users and Bonds being disliked even before that) but even so I think I saw a list that espn did recently and he came in 8th just for position players. So obviously even lower if pitchers are included.

I'd say a few things.

1. Baseball has basically GOAT position players and pitchers. They are so different that when I see a combined list it barely makes sense.
2. There is a huge stigma against Bonds dating back to the pre-Roid days. He was just detested to a degree I've rarely seen. Maybe if TO was as good at football as Tom Brady you come close.
3. I don't think he is 100% the GOAT but he has an unarguable case. And his best seasons are just ridiculous.

Added bonus this is him killing some Japanese pitcher in an exhibitiion game:

sp6r=underrated wrote:
I'd say a few things.

1. Baseball has basically GOAT position players and pitchers. They are so different that when I see a combined list it barely makes sense.
2. There is a huge stigma against Bonds dating back to the pre-Roid days. He was just detested to a degree I've rarely seen. Maybe if TO was as good at football as Tom Brady you come close.
3. I don't think he is 100% the GOAT but he has an unarguable case. And his best seasons are just ridiculous.

1. The list I mentioned wasn't combined.
2. I already mentioned he wasn't liked but at the same time they also voted him mvp 7 times.
3. I agree he has a case. Its just not to where I think he's widely seen as having that title. It also depends on how you view peds and yes you can say everyone was on them then but more realistically it was probably like half the guys if that and I do think it becomes an exponential thing once a guy already has elite vision and hand eye coordination as a batter. His results pretty much proved that at an advanced age. He went from having very good hitting numbers for his era to breaking most every record in his late 30's.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:

sp6r=underrated wrote:
I'd say a few things.

1. Baseball has basically GOAT position players and pitchers. They are so different that when I see a combined list it barely makes sense.
2. There is a huge stigma against Bonds dating back to the pre-Roid days. He was just detested to a degree I've rarely seen. Maybe if TO was as good at football as Tom Brady you come close.
3. I don't think he is 100% the GOAT but he has an unarguable case. And his best seasons are just ridiculous.

1. The list I mentioned wasn't combined.
2. I already mentioned he wasn't liked but at the same time they also voted him mvp 7 times.
3. I agree he has a case. Its just not to where I think he's widely seen as having that title. It also depends on how you view peds and yes you can say everyone was on them then but more realistically it was probably like half the guys if that and I do think it becomes an exponential thing once a guy already has elite vision and hand eye coordination as a batter. His results pretty much proved that at an advanced age. He went from having very good hitting numbers for his era to breaking most every record in his late 30's.

If you ignore drug use then the only one who would have a case against Barry Bonds would be Babe Ruth, due to his era dominance and his pitching ability. Bonds's hitting dominance over anyone else is not even a question, and he also won 8 all-defense (gold glove) awards. Arguing Bonds vs Ruth to me would be like arguing LeBron vs Michael, you are not going to convince the other side.
But for comparison it's like Jordan vs LeBron, with no Kareem or Russell that might have a case.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:I'm sort of surprised how many people are calling Bonds the goat here. As someone who started following mlb in the late 80's and sort of stopped in the 00's I never felt like Bonds being the goat gained that much traction(which obviously had something to do with the backlash against perceived ped users and Bonds being disliked even before that) but even so I think I saw a list that espn did recently and he came in 8th just for position players. So obviously even lower if pitchers are included.

Interesting. Here's my recollection:

Despite Bonds winning the first 3 MVPs in the early '90s, no one was talking about him as a GOAT candidate at the time - and in general, it was a depressed age for stats, where the things that were landmarks to those paying attention ("Ooh, Cecil Fielder hit 50 dingers!") were things that didn't break the records that they needed to for baseball to get cross-over media attention.

And of course, then you had this thing where Bonds had managed to make himself incredibly unpopular, and so those looking to hero worship were looking to the future with someone like the sweet-faced smile of Ken Griffey Jr.

Nevertheless, in a sport where 3 MVPs is historically all anyone gets, the fact that by that age Bonds had already achieved this, and his body really didn't show signs of breaking down for a long time afterward, there's a real argument to be made that Bonds would be a GOAT candidate even if there had been no steroids in the world.

Of course, then the steroid wave hits, and if you weren't in that top tier of guys hitting all-time home runs numbers, you weren't going to be in the big discussions. So from that point on, if Bonds doesn't take steroids, he has no chance at GOAT conversation because he wasn't even the best of his own era.

Then the 'Roid Barry era happens where Bonds plays baseball more effectively than anyone has ever done, and we start getting heated debates where many, many people are quite (correctly) convinced that Bonds is cheating, and thus that his GOAT standing needs to be argued down or even buried, but folks in analytics circles are like "Okay, but if you're just talking about how effective he is at baseball...GOAT."

With all this ending with definitive proof that Bonds was cheating, to me that tends to lead to two distinct lists in the eyes of most hardcore baseball historians (which I'm not one of, to be clear):

1. The Official GOAT List which doesn't include steroid years.

2. The list that includes the steroid users.

Bonds tops the 2nd, but not the 1st.

As I say all of that:

I do think it's worth noting that there's a unique veneration in baseball for someone who can both hit and pitch, which leaves many confident in giving all ties to Babe Ruth, and which can open the door to someone like Shohei Ontani to come in and swipe the mantle, without insisting that they are DQing Bonds steroids years. We'll see how that goes going forward.

Barry Bonds is the greatest professional athlete ever.

Doctor MJ wrote:
Interesting. Here's my recollection:

Despite Bonds winning the first 3 MVPs in the early '90s, no one was talking about him as a GOAT candidate at the time - and in general, it was a depressed age for stats, where the things that were landmarks to those paying attention ("Ooh, Cecil Fielder hit 50 dingers!") were things that didn't break the records that they needed to for baseball to get cross-over media attention.

And of course, then you had this thing where Bonds had managed to make himself incredibly unpopular, and so those looking to hero worship were looking to the future with someone like the sweet-faced smile of Ken Griffey Jr.

Nevertheless, in a sport where 3 MVPs is historically all anyone gets, the fact that by that age Bonds had already achieved this, and his body really didn't show signs of breaking down for a long time afterward, there's a real argument to be made that Bonds would be a GOAT candidate even if there had been no steroids in the world.

Of course, then the steroid wave hits, and if you weren't in that top tier of guys hitting all-time home runs numbers, you weren't going to be in the big discussions. So from that point on, if Bonds doesn't take steroids, he has no chance at GOAT conversation because he wasn't even the best of his own era.

Then the 'Roid Barry era happens where Bonds plays baseball more effectively than anyone has ever done, and we start getting heated debates where many, many people are quite (correctly) convinced that Bonds is cheating, and thus that his GOAT standing needs to be argued down or even buried, but folks in analytics circles are like "Okay, but if you're just talking about how effective he is at baseball...GOAT."

I don't think he'd be much of a goat candidate without peds. He'd be up there in the top 10-15 though almost for sure(among position players). I don't think mvps really carry the same weight among baseball historians that they do in basketball for instance. The thing about Bonds and peds is that they allowed him to choke up on the bat and shorten his swing while standing on top of the plate with armor on and just sort of golf pitches out with the added strength he had.