RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #2 - 2012-13 LeBron James

[70sFan]

Thank you, good sir.

I really still can't decide, but I think for now I'm gonna go with Hakeem and not overthink too much because 1) I think he's the best defender of the 3 and 2) that jump in all offensive stats going into the Playoffs is very impressive to me, especially given his lack of offensive support and the fact that he played a historic Knicks defense in the Finals.

I used to have Wilt at 1 but I really think he might be down to 6 for me this project. Trying to be as objective as possible.

No problem! Two questions to you:

1. How do you see Hakeem's passing vs the rest? To me he's by far the worst passers among top tier centers and I think it clearly limits the offense led by Olajuwon.

2. What made you become lower on Wilt than before?

[70sFan]

I have Kareem at 3 behind LeBron and Jordan on my ATL so in a sense I agree that he is a "generational" player, because he basically was THE guy in the league from 1970 until Bird won his first MVP, but do you not think it's likely to say that his generational status comes moreso from his longevity? Just because he was the dominant player of his time doesn't mean that he was as good at his peak as the other two?

Not directed to me, but I think Kareem was generational player MOSTLY because of his prime/peak, longevity is just icing on a cake. I think you can compare him favorably to any player peak-wise.

[70sFan]

So, between '92-93, '93-94 & '94-95, I have to acknowledge I don't see these as different players. To me this was the era where his offense reached virtuoso levels while still having a strong case for the best defensive player in the world. I went with '94-95 because to me that felt like the moment when all the guns were aimed at Hakeem, and one by one, he did his Dream Shake around them.

Not that my take is definitive, but watching closely 1993-95 Rockets games, I can't agree with your view. Hakeem lost quite a lot of what made him so unique - his motor - by 1995. He wasn't himself defensively at that point of his career and his mobility (something you're very high on) wasn't on this GOAT level anymore. Even with 1994 vs 1993, there is a subtle difference but it became notably bigger in 1995.

[70sFan]

Re: Hakeem. In the era I'm talking about, Hakeem has an excellent case for being both the best offensive and defensive player in the NBA. You can certainly argue that his defense was even better when he was younger, but overall, his play with Rudy T seems to me clearly to be his best performance.

I don't think Hakeem has a strong claim for the best offensive player in the league in any of his years. I guess it's the matter of mediocre competition at his peak, but even then I don't see that. Hakeem was the kind of player that was absurdly good at some things, but had clear limitations in very basic offensive skills. He's notably weaker passer than most high volume post players, he doesn't draw a lot of fouls and his off-ball movement is quite mediocre (he has little value outside of occasional midrange jumpers coming off screens). On top of that, his decision making clearly improved under Rudy T, but he never really cleared it enough to say that stopped being his weakness.

Even with the absence of Jordan, was he really better than Barkley, Miller, Shaq? I don't think so.

By the way, wouldn't you say that with such loose criteria you can say the same thing about other bigs like Kareem, Duncan, Wilt or even Garnett?

[70sFan]

Curry: how does he rank in comparision to magic and russel, other "1-way" peaks that arguably had more inpressive results in that end that curry warriors

Great questions in general, I'll respond to this one since Curry is the one I put on my first ballot leaving aside Magic and the 1-way thing, which I've addressed elsewhere, which means focusing on Curry vs Russell:

I have legit angst about how I rank Russell at this point due to the fact that while I think he was still the best defender we ever saw, he couldn't have the same value today precisely because of the change that Curry is the avatar of.

So then, if I feel a compulsion to ask how each of these players would do in the era of the man they are being compared with, where does that leave Russell?

It's frankly an open question. I'll be making these calls as I go, and I'm not sure where Russell will land...this despite the fact that I think I have more respect for Russell as an athlete than possibly any athlete in history.

But would I draft Russell ahead of Curry today? No, can't claim I would.

That's an interesting view at that situation, but wouldn't you say that the same thing applies to Curry if you go back in time? I mean, Curry's shooting ability wouldn't be able to impact Russell's defense without three point line.

I think that's not completely fair to give all the credit to Curry, when the reality is that he'd never become such an influential player without the three point line - which didn't existed for the first 30 years of the league.

[LA Bird]

Here are the results for round 2

Winner: 13 James

There were 23 voters in this round: 70sFan, homecourtloss, coastalmarker99, Max123, SickMother, Djoker, capfan33, Lou Fan, Dutchball97, Proxy, ardee, falcolombardi, JordansBulls, ceoofkobefans, E-Balla, Eddy_JukeZ, cupcakesnake, Colbinii, DraymondGold, Dr Positivity, Doctor MJ, letskissbro, Blazers-1977

A total of 28 seasons received at least 1 vote: 00 O'Neal, 01 O'Neal, 02 O'Neal, 03 Duncan, 09 James, 10 James, 12 James, 13 James, 16 Curry, 16 James, 17 Curry, 17 James, 18 James, 62 Russell, 63 Russell, 64 Russell, 65 Russell, 67 Chamberlain, 71 Abdul-Jabbar, 72 Abdul-Jabbar, 74 Abdul-Jabbar, 77 Abdul-Jabbar, 80 Abdul-Jabbar, 87 Johnson, 93 Olajuwon, 94 Olajuwon, 95 Olajuwon, 98 O'Neal

Top 5 seasons
13 James: 1.000 (27-0)
16 James: 0.963 (26-1), loses to 13 James
00 O'Neal: 0.926 (25-2), loses to 13 James, 16 James
77 Abdul-Jabbar: 0.889 (24-3), loses to 00 O'Neal, 13 James, 16 James
12 James: 0.852 (23-4), loses to 00 O'Neal, 13 James, 16 James, 77 Abdul-Jabbar

H2H record
13 James vs 16 James: 13-4
13 James vs 00 O'Neal: 12-6
13 James vs 77 Abdul-Jabbar: 13-4
13 James vs 12 James: 13-3
16 James vs 00 O'Neal: 10-9
16 James vs 77 Abdul-Jabbar: 11-6
16 James vs 12 James: 8-7
00 O'Neal vs 77 Abdul-Jabbar: 11-6
00 O'Neal vs 12 James: 12-7
77 Abdul-Jabbar vs 12 James: 8-7

[Doctor MJ]

So, between '92-93, '93-94 & '94-95, I have to acknowledge I don't see these as different players. To me this was the era where his offense reached virtuoso levels while still having a strong case for the best defensive player in the world. I went with '94-95 because to me that felt like the moment when all the guns were aimed at Hakeem, and one by one, he did his Dream Shake around them.

Not that my take is definitive, but watching closely 1993-95 Rockets games, I can't agree with your view. Hakeem lost quite a lot of what made him so unique - his motor - by 1995. He wasn't himself defensively at that point of his career and his mobility (something you're very high on) wasn't on this GOAT level anymore. Even with 1994 vs 1993, there is a subtle difference but it became notably bigger in 1995.

I value your assessment 70s.

[tsherkin]

So, between '92-93, '93-94 & '94-95, I have to acknowledge I don't see these as different players. To me this was the era where his offense reached virtuoso levels while still having a strong case for the best defensive player in the world. I went with '94-95 because to me that felt like the moment when all the guns were aimed at Hakeem, and one by one, he did his Dream Shake around them.

Not that my take is definitive, but watching closely 1993-95 Rockets games, I can't agree with your view. Hakeem lost quite a lot of what made him so unique - his motor - by 1995. He wasn't himself defensively at that point of his career and his mobility (something you're very high on) wasn't on this GOAT level anymore. Even with 1994 vs 1993, there is a subtle difference but it became notably bigger in 1995.

I value your assessment 70s.

Agreed!

[JordansBulls]

I get 2013 Lebron but 2016 Lebron didn’t even get a single vote for mvp that’s hard to qualify for top 2-3 peak all time.