Would Hakeem and Ewing develop a 3pt game today?

[durantbird]

Both known as quite good offensive players from mid range, do you think they would've been reliable 3pt shooters in today's game, in a similar manner to the likes of Embiid and Jokic?

Which other all time great centers would develop a reliable 3pt game?

[Owly]

Both known as quite good offensive players from mid range, do you think they would've been reliable 3pt shooters in today's game, in a similar manner to the likes of Embiid and Jokic?

Which other all time great centers would develop a reliable 3pt game?

Embiid, Jokic are both career ft% north of 80 (Jokic 83%, never south of .80) quite far I would think (given my assumption on ft% distribution) above where Ewing (.74; peaking .775) Olajuwon (.712, better in early-to-mid 90s, peaking .787) resided.

As ever people can play time machine stuff how they want with different assumptions, so I won't go to any absolutes. But as a solid proxy for purity of stroke in consistent conditions I'd say as it was they were decidedly worse pure shooters than the modern comps (maybe one assumes their skills translate to getting better looks from 3, shot form adapts better to deep, better shot selection or some other variable).

[Ginoboleee]

Rufus is working on the Time Machine again, so I'm not entirely sure at the moment.

But yeah, why not?! Ewing had a great jumper (his best skill across most of his NBA years) and yeah given that Hakeem picked up basketball late, picking up a Three later on shouldn't be too much trouble for the most-well-coordinated (greatest dexterity) big man ever.

[scrabbarista]

Both known as quite good offensive players from mid range, do you think they would've been reliable 3pt shooters in today's game, in a similar manner to the likes of Embiid and Jokic?

Which other all time great centers would develop a reliable 3pt game?

Embiid, Jokic are both career ft% north of 80 (Jokic 83%, never south of .80) quite far I would think (given my assumption on ft% distribution) above where Ewing (.74; peaking .775) Olajuwon (.712, better in early-to-mid 90s, peaking .787) resided.

As ever people can play time machine stuff how they want with different assumptions, so I won't go to any absolutes. But as a solid proxy for purity of stroke in consistent conditions I'd say as it was they were decidedly worse pure shooters than the modern comps (maybe one assumes their skills translate to getting better looks from 3, shot form adapts better to deep, better shot selection or some other variable).

LeBron is .701 from the free throw line over the last six seasons. Over that same span, he's shot .357 from three on six attempts per game.

It's impossible to know anything like this with absolute certainty, but just having watched Dream a ton in his prime, I know how good he was from 15-18 feet, even off the dribble - and how coordinated he was overall; I'm as near certain as possible that he would've been in the ball park with Jokic and Embiid as a three-point shooter if he'd been born thirty years later.

[ronnymac2]

If Ewing and Olajuwon want to even be in TODAY's NBA, then they better develop three-point shots.

[henshao]

This Olajuwon?

Watch on YouTube

In all seriousness, I'm not as familiar with Ewing's range but Hakeem was already pretty reliable from ~19. I have no doubt he could shoot from further if he worked on it.

[giordunk]

If a guy like Kyle O'Quinn was averaging 3 3s per 36 minutes his last season in the NBA then I'm sure two of the most skilled centers in the NBA could shoot 3s in today's NBA.

[Owly]

Both known as quite good offensive players from mid range, do you think they would've been reliable 3pt shooters in today's game, in a similar manner to the likes of Embiid and Jokic?

Which other all time great centers would develop a reliable 3pt game?

Embiid, Jokic are both career ft% north of 80 (Jokic 83%, never south of .80) quite far I would think (given my assumption on ft% distribution) above where Ewing (.74; peaking .775) Olajuwon (.712, better in early-to-mid 90s, peaking .787) resided.

As ever people can play time machine stuff how they want with different assumptions, so I won't go to any absolutes. But as a solid proxy for purity of stroke in consistent conditions I'd say as it was they were decidedly worse pure shooters than the modern comps (maybe one assumes their skills translate to getting better looks from 3, shot form adapts better to deep, better shot selection or some other variable).

LeBron is .701 from the free throw line over the last six seasons. Over that same span, he's shot .357 from three on six attempts per game.

It's impossible to know anything like this with absolute certainty, but just having watched Dream a ton in his prime, I know how good he was from 15-18 feet, even off the dribble - and how coordinated he was overall - and I'm as near certain as possible that he would've been in the ball park with Jokic and Embiid as a three-point shooter if he'd been born thirty years later.

I'm not sure what you're looking for here.

These things are correlated significantly - I believe to the extent ft% is used significantly in profiling projecting longer distance shooting in prospects. Are you in disagreement here?

I give caveats with regards to some players have form which works better from range, creation ability etc.

I'm not sure what one ... semi-exception (for a selected window rather than full career, and a pretty exceptional perimeter driver which should be giving him better looks) is supposed to do here.

I wouldn't claim to anything like certainty as to what people would be like if we time travel them because I don't know what that entails (nor what others imagine it entails). I am happy to reiterate what was implicit above, Olajuwon's best FT% season is worse than Jokic's worst.

For reference some players in those career ranges.

.820-.840 shooters 1000 attempts (list from circa 3 years ago)

Bill Bradley
Vinny Del Negro
CJ McCollum
Lou Williams
Eric Piatkowski
Ricky Rubio
Michael Redd
Oscar Robertson
Aaron Brooks
Kobe Bryant
Bill Laimbeer
Karl-Anthony Towns
Terry Porter
Adrian Smith
Nick Young
Travis Best
Michael Jordan
Kemba Walker
Jimmy Butler
Cuttino Mobley
Keith Van Horn
Allen Leavell
Jo Jo White
John Williamson
Doug Collins
Beno Udrih
Damon Stoudamire
Byron Scott
Ron Williams
Yao Ming
Michael Cooper
Alex English
Jim McMillian
Brandon Bass
Charlie Criss
Sidney Moncrief
Winston Garland
Howard Komives
Billy Knight
Armond Hill
Jimmy Walker
Kenny Smith
Nikola Jokic
Bob Weiss
DeMar DeRozan
Brad Davis
Ollie Johnson
Howard Eisley
Muggsy Bogues
Kevin Love
Cazzie Russell
Manu Ginobili
Reggie Theus
John Stockton
Wesley Matthews
Kenny Sears
Dee Brown
Dennis Schroder
Jim Jackson
Arron Afflalo
Dick Schnittker
Reggie Lewis
Zach LaVine
Ron Brewer
Andrea Bargnani
Derrick Rose
Dick Snyder
Rodney Stuckey
Purvis Short
Dave Twardzik
Fred Schaus
Brent Barry
Corey Maggette
Channing Frye
Dave Gambee
Deron Williams
Tobias Harris
Jerry Stackhouse
Gordon Hayward
Frankie Brian
Leandro Barbosa
Doug Christie
Johnny Davis
Christian Laettner
Pete Maravich

.702-.722 ft% shooters (same requirements)

Don Kojis
Ron Harper
John Shumate
Billy Cunningham
Jerome Whitehead
Jeff Ruland
Xavier McDaniel
Quentin Richardson
Loy Vaught
Boris Diaw
J.R. Reid
Jamaal Tinsley
Shawn Bradley
Metta World Peace
Jermaine O'Neal
John Salley
Michael Brooks
Michael Kidd-Gilchrist
Corliss Williamson
Adam Keefe
Corey Brewer
Kevin Willis
Artis Gilmore
Rick Adelman
Darrell Walker
Johnny Moore
Hakeem Olajuwon
Maurice Taylor
Raef LaFrentz
Al Jefferson
Baron Davis
Edgar Jones
Derrick Williams
Andre Iguodala
Theo Ratliff
Gerald Wallace
Tony Allen
Taj Gibson
Anthony Mason
Harvey Grant
Paul Walther
Jason Richardson
Darrell Griffith
Al Bianchi
Samuel Dalembert
Draymond Green
Phil Hubbard
Terry Cummings
Avery Johnson
Tony Massenburg
Jim Washington
Greg Monroe
Chris Mihm
John Williams
Jack George
Mitch Kupchak
Rick Mahorn
Jim Chones
Scottie Pippen
Earl Watson
Tim McCormick
Terry Tyler
Bryant Reeves
James Bailey
George Senesky

I believe Olajuwon was better from long midrange from the field than his FT% would indicate (though I think he was stronger in the shorter midrange).

I don't know what Olajuwon would be (not least for the uncertainty of time machine stuff) nor how he would optimally focus today. I do though see little reason to show near certainty that Olajuwon would be in Jokic's ballpark as a shooter.

[scrabbarista]

Embiid, Jokic are both career ft% north of 80 (Jokic 83%, never south of .80) quite far I would think (given my assumption on ft% distribution) above where Ewing (.74; peaking .775) Olajuwon (.712, better in early-to-mid 90s, peaking .787) resided.

As ever people can play time machine stuff how they want with different assumptions, so I won't go to any absolutes. But as a solid proxy for purity of stroke in consistent conditions I'd say as it was they were decidedly worse pure shooters than the modern comps (maybe one assumes their skills translate to getting better looks from 3, shot form adapts better to deep, better shot selection or some other variable).

LeBron is .701 from the free throw line over the last six seasons. Over that same span, he's shot .357 from three on six attempts per game.

It's impossible to know anything like this with absolute certainty, but just having watched Dream a ton in his prime, I know how good he was from 15-18 feet, even off the dribble - and how coordinated he was overall - and I'm as near certain as possible that he would've been in the ball park with Jokic and Embiid as a three-point shooter if he'd been born thirty years later.

I'm not sure what you're looking for here.

These things are correlated significantly - I believe to the extent ft% is used significantly in profiling projecting longer distance shooting in prospects. Are you in disagreement here?

I give caveats with regards to some players have form which works better from range, creation ability etc.

I'm not sure what one ... semi-exception (for a selected window rather than full career, and a pretty exceptional perimeter driver which should be giving him better looks) is supposed to do here.

I wouldn't claim to anything like certainty as to what people would be like if we time travel them because I don't know what that entails (nor what others imagine it entails). I am happy to reiterate what was implicit above, Olajuwon's best FT% season is worse than Jokic's worst.

For reference some players in those career ranges.

.820-.840 shooters 1000 attempts (list from circa 3 years ago)

Bill Bradley
Vinny Del Negro
CJ McCollum
Lou Williams
Eric Piatkowski
Ricky Rubio
Michael Redd
Oscar Robertson
Aaron Brooks
Kobe Bryant
Bill Laimbeer
Karl-Anthony Towns
Terry Porter
Adrian Smith
Nick Young
Travis Best
Michael Jordan
Kemba Walker
Jimmy Butler
Cuttino Mobley
Keith Van Horn
Allen Leavell
Jo Jo White
John Williamson
Doug Collins
Beno Udrih
Damon Stoudamire
Byron Scott
Ron Williams
Yao Ming
Michael Cooper
Alex English
Jim McMillian
Brandon Bass
Charlie Criss
Sidney Moncrief
Winston Garland
Howard Komives
Billy Knight
Armond Hill
Jimmy Walker
Kenny Smith
Nikola Jokic
Bob Weiss
DeMar DeRozan
Brad Davis
Ollie Johnson
Howard Eisley
Muggsy Bogues
Kevin Love
Cazzie Russell
Manu Ginobili
Reggie Theus
John Stockton
Wesley Matthews
Kenny Sears
Dee Brown
Dennis Schroder
Jim Jackson
Arron Afflalo
Dick Schnittker
Reggie Lewis
Zach LaVine
Ron Brewer
Andrea Bargnani
Derrick Rose
Dick Snyder
Rodney Stuckey
Purvis Short
Dave Twardzik
Fred Schaus
Brent Barry
Corey Maggette
Channing Frye
Dave Gambee
Deron Williams
Tobias Harris
Jerry Stackhouse
Gordon Hayward
Frankie Brian
Leandro Barbosa
Doug Christie
Johnny Davis
Christian Laettner
Pete Maravich

.702-.722 ft% shooters (same requirements)

Don Kojis
Ron Harper
John Shumate
Billy Cunningham
Jerome Whitehead
Jeff Ruland
Xavier McDaniel
Quentin Richardson
Loy Vaught
Boris Diaw
J.R. Reid
Jamaal Tinsley
Shawn Bradley
Metta World Peace
Jermaine O'Neal
John Salley
Michael Brooks
Michael Kidd-Gilchrist
Corliss Williamson
Adam Keefe
Corey Brewer
Kevin Willis
Artis Gilmore
Rick Adelman
Darrell Walker
Johnny Moore
Hakeem Olajuwon
Maurice Taylor
Raef LaFrentz
Al Jefferson
Baron Davis
Edgar Jones
Derrick Williams
Andre Iguodala
Theo Ratliff
Gerald Wallace
Tony Allen
Taj Gibson
Anthony Mason
Harvey Grant
Paul Walther
Jason Richardson
Darrell Griffith
Al Bianchi
Samuel Dalembert
Draymond Green
Phil Hubbard
Terry Cummings
Avery Johnson
Tony Massenburg
Jim Washington
Greg Monroe
Chris Mihm
John Williams
Jack George
Mitch Kupchak
Rick Mahorn
Jim Chones
Scottie Pippen
Earl Watson
Tim McCormick
Terry Tyler
Bryant Reeves
James Bailey
George Senesky

I believe Olajuwon was better from long midrange from the field than his FT% would indicate (though I think he was stronger in the shorter midrange).

I don't know what Olajuwon would be (not least for the uncertainty of time machine stuff) nor how he would optimally focus today. I do though see little reason to show near certainty that Olajuwon would be in Jokic's ballpark as a shooter.

Two lists of free throw shooters, practically all of whom played their whole careers before the 3-point explosion? What exactly is your point there?

[scrabbarista]

Embiid, Jokic are both career ft% north of 80 (Jokic 83%, never south of .80) quite far I would think (given my assumption on ft% distribution) above where Ewing (.74; peaking .775) Olajuwon (.712, better in early-to-mid 90s, peaking .787) resided.

As ever people can play time machine stuff how they want with different assumptions, so I won't go to any absolutes. But as a solid proxy for purity of stroke in consistent conditions I'd say as it was they were decidedly worse pure shooters than the modern comps (maybe one assumes their skills translate to getting better looks from 3, shot form adapts better to deep, better shot selection or some other variable).

LeBron is .701 from the free throw line over the last six seasons. Over that same span, he's shot .357 from three on six attempts per game.

It's impossible to know anything like this with absolute certainty, but just having watched Dream a ton in his prime, I know how good he was from 15-18 feet, even off the dribble - and how coordinated he was overall - and I'm as near certain as possible that he would've been in the ball park with Jokic and Embiid as a three-point shooter if he'd been born thirty years later.

I'm not sure what you're looking for here.

These things are correlated significantly - I believe to the extent ft% is used significantly in profiling projecting longer distance shooting in prospects. Are you in disagreement here?

I give caveats with regards to some players have form which works better from range, creation ability etc.

I'm not sure what one ... semi-exception (for a selected window rather than full career, and a pretty exceptional perimeter driver which should be giving him better looks) is supposed to do here.

I wouldn't claim to anything like certainty as to what people would be like if we time travel them because I don't know what that entails (nor what others imagine it entails). I am happy to reiterate what was implicit above, Olajuwon's best FT% season is worse than Jokic's worst.

For reference some players in those career ranges.

.820-.840 shooters 1000 attempts (list from circa 3 years ago)

Bill Bradley
Vinny Del Negro
CJ McCollum
Lou Williams
Eric Piatkowski
Ricky Rubio
Michael Redd
Oscar Robertson
Aaron Brooks
Kobe Bryant
Bill Laimbeer
Karl-Anthony Towns
Terry Porter
Adrian Smith
Nick Young
Travis Best
Michael Jordan
Kemba Walker
Jimmy Butler
Cuttino Mobley
Keith Van Horn
Allen Leavell
Jo Jo White
John Williamson
Doug Collins
Beno Udrih
Damon Stoudamire
Byron Scott
Ron Williams
Yao Ming
Michael Cooper
Alex English
Jim McMillian
Brandon Bass
Charlie Criss
Sidney Moncrief
Winston Garland
Howard Komives
Billy Knight
Armond Hill
Jimmy Walker
Kenny Smith
Nikola Jokic
Bob Weiss
DeMar DeRozan
Brad Davis
Ollie Johnson
Howard Eisley
Muggsy Bogues
Kevin Love
Cazzie Russell
Manu Ginobili
Reggie Theus
John Stockton
Wesley Matthews
Kenny Sears
Dee Brown
Dennis Schroder
Jim Jackson
Arron Afflalo
Dick Schnittker
Reggie Lewis
Zach LaVine
Ron Brewer
Andrea Bargnani
Derrick Rose
Dick Snyder
Rodney Stuckey
Purvis Short
Dave Twardzik
Fred Schaus
Brent Barry
Corey Maggette
Channing Frye
Dave Gambee
Deron Williams
Tobias Harris
Jerry Stackhouse
Gordon Hayward
Frankie Brian
Leandro Barbosa
Doug Christie
Johnny Davis
Christian Laettner
Pete Maravich

.702-.722 ft% shooters (same requirements)

Don Kojis
Ron Harper
John Shumate
Billy Cunningham
Jerome Whitehead
Jeff Ruland
Xavier McDaniel
Quentin Richardson
Loy Vaught
Boris Diaw
J.R. Reid
Jamaal Tinsley
Shawn Bradley
Metta World Peace
Jermaine O'Neal
John Salley
Michael Brooks
Michael Kidd-Gilchrist
Corliss Williamson
Adam Keefe
Corey Brewer
Kevin Willis
Artis Gilmore
Rick Adelman
Darrell Walker
Johnny Moore
Hakeem Olajuwon
Maurice Taylor
Raef LaFrentz
Al Jefferson
Baron Davis
Edgar Jones
Derrick Williams
Andre Iguodala
Theo Ratliff
Gerald Wallace
Tony Allen
Taj Gibson
Anthony Mason
Harvey Grant
Paul Walther
Jason Richardson
Darrell Griffith
Al Bianchi
Samuel Dalembert
Draymond Green
Phil Hubbard
Terry Cummings
Avery Johnson
Tony Massenburg
Jim Washington
Greg Monroe
Chris Mihm
John Williams
Jack George
Mitch Kupchak
Rick Mahorn
Jim Chones
Scottie Pippen
Earl Watson
Tim McCormick
Terry Tyler
Bryant Reeves
James Bailey
George Senesky

I believe Olajuwon was better from long midrange from the field than his FT% would indicate (though I think he was stronger in the shorter midrange).

I don't know what Olajuwon would be (not least for the uncertainty of time machine stuff) nor how he would optimally focus today. I do though see little reason to show near certainty that Olajuwon would be in Jokic's ballpark as a shooter.

Taking entire career FT%'s can be even more misrepresetative of a player's shooting potential than taking a six-year sample, as it doesn't account for skill development - both before and after entering the league. (And, if you like, I'll tack on two extra years: LeBron is .707 from the line over the last eight seasons and .354 from three on five and a half attempts per game.)

Hakeem, for example, came into the league very raw. Over his last 13 seasons, he shot .734 from from the free throw line. That's a 13 SEASON sample size that lifts him out of long list of shooters you put him in. In fact, it puts him basically on par with LeBron's last 13 seasons (.737). Is that too small of a sample for you? 4,762 attempts for Hakeem, and 7,291 for LeBron?

[Owly]

LeBron is .701 from the free throw line over the last six seasons. Over that same span, he's shot .357 from three on six attempts per game.

It's impossible to know anything like this with absolute certainty, but just having watched Dream a ton in his prime, I know how good he was from 15-18 feet, even off the dribble - and how coordinated he was overall - and I'm as near certain as possible that he would've been in the ball park with Jokic and Embiid as a three-point shooter if he'd been born thirty years later.

I'm not sure what you're looking for here.

These things are correlated significantly - I believe to the extent ft% is used significantly in profiling projecting longer distance shooting in prospects. Are you in disagreement here?

I give caveats with regards to some players have form which works better from range, creation ability etc.

I'm not sure what one ... semi-exception (for a selected window rather than full career, and a pretty exceptional perimeter driver which should be giving him better looks) is supposed to do here.

I wouldn't claim to anything like certainty as to what people would be like if we time travel them because I don't know what that entails (nor what others imagine it entails). I am happy to reiterate what was implicit above, Olajuwon's best FT% season is worse than Jokic's worst.

For reference some players in those career ranges.

.820-.840 shooters 1000 attempts (list from circa 3 years ago)

Bill Bradley
Vinny Del Negro
CJ McCollum
Lou Williams
Eric Piatkowski
Ricky Rubio
Michael Redd
Oscar Robertson
Aaron Brooks
Kobe Bryant
Bill Laimbeer
Karl-Anthony Towns
Terry Porter
Adrian Smith
Nick Young
Travis Best
Michael Jordan
Kemba Walker
Jimmy Butler
Cuttino Mobley
Keith Van Horn
Allen Leavell
Jo Jo White
John Williamson
Doug Collins
Beno Udrih
Damon Stoudamire
Byron Scott
Ron Williams
Yao Ming
Michael Cooper
Alex English
Jim McMillian
Brandon Bass
Charlie Criss
Sidney Moncrief
Winston Garland
Howard Komives
Billy Knight
Armond Hill
Jimmy Walker
Kenny Smith
Nikola Jokic
Bob Weiss
DeMar DeRozan
Brad Davis
Ollie Johnson
Howard Eisley
Muggsy Bogues
Kevin Love
Cazzie Russell
Manu Ginobili
Reggie Theus
John Stockton
Wesley Matthews
Kenny Sears
Dee Brown
Dennis Schroder
Jim Jackson
Arron Afflalo
Dick Schnittker
Reggie Lewis
Zach LaVine
Ron Brewer
Andrea Bargnani
Derrick Rose
Dick Snyder
Rodney Stuckey
Purvis Short
Dave Twardzik
Fred Schaus
Brent Barry
Corey Maggette
Channing Frye
Dave Gambee
Deron Williams
Tobias Harris
Jerry Stackhouse
Gordon Hayward
Frankie Brian
Leandro Barbosa
Doug Christie
Johnny Davis
Christian Laettner
Pete Maravich

.702-.722 ft% shooters (same requirements)

Don Kojis
Ron Harper
John Shumate
Billy Cunningham
Jerome Whitehead
Jeff Ruland
Xavier McDaniel
Quentin Richardson
Loy Vaught
Boris Diaw
J.R. Reid
Jamaal Tinsley
Shawn Bradley
Metta World Peace
Jermaine O'Neal
John Salley
Michael Brooks
Michael Kidd-Gilchrist
Corliss Williamson
Adam Keefe
Corey Brewer
Kevin Willis
Artis Gilmore
Rick Adelman
Darrell Walker
Johnny Moore
Hakeem Olajuwon
Maurice Taylor
Raef LaFrentz
Al Jefferson
Baron Davis
Edgar Jones
Derrick Williams
Andre Iguodala
Theo Ratliff
Gerald Wallace
Tony Allen
Taj Gibson
Anthony Mason
Harvey Grant
Paul Walther
Jason Richardson
Darrell Griffith
Al Bianchi
Samuel Dalembert
Draymond Green
Phil Hubbard
Terry Cummings
Avery Johnson
Tony Massenburg
Jim Washington
Greg Monroe
Chris Mihm
John Williams
Jack George
Mitch Kupchak
Rick Mahorn
Jim Chones
Scottie Pippen
Earl Watson
Tim McCormick
Terry Tyler
Bryant Reeves
James Bailey
George Senesky

I believe Olajuwon was better from long midrange from the field than his FT% would indicate (though I think he was stronger in the shorter midrange).

I don't know what Olajuwon would be (not least for the uncertainty of time machine stuff) nor how he would optimally focus today. I do though see little reason to show near certainty that Olajuwon would be in Jokic's ballpark as a shooter.

Two lists of free throw shooters, practically all of whom played their whole careers before the 3-point explosion? What exactly is your point there?

Again not sure what you are looking for.

I'm trying to keep this constructive.

Read the post and it states, among other things (that you appear to have disregarded) that the lists purpose is to give some context on the caliber of shooter in each's FT% vicinity.
But if you want a blunter version.

Above plus 3pt% above .35 (min 50 makes)
list 1
Vinny Del Negro
CJ McCollum
Eric Piatkowski
Michael Redd
Aaron Brooks
Karl-Anthony Towns
Terry Porter
Nick Young
Kemba Walker
Cuttino Mobley
Keith Van Horn
Damon Stoudamire
Byron Scott
Kenny Smith
Howard Eisley
Kevin Love
Manu Ginobili
John Stockton
Wesley Matthews
Dee Brown
Jim Jackson
Arron Afflalo
Zach LaVine
Andrea Bargnani
Brent Barry
Channing Frye
Deron Williams
Tobias Harris
Gordon Hayward
Leandro Barbosa
Doug Christie
O.J. Mayo

list 2
Quentin Richardson
Raef LaFrentz
Jason Richardson

You'll notice which list shrunk more.

[scrabbarista]

I'm not sure what you're looking for here.

These things are correlated significantly - I believe to the extent ft% is used significantly in profiling projecting longer distance shooting in prospects. Are you in disagreement here?

I give caveats with regards to some players have form which works better from range, creation ability etc.

I'm not sure what one ... semi-exception (for a selected window rather than full career, and a pretty exceptional perimeter driver which should be giving him better looks) is supposed to do here.

I wouldn't claim to anything like certainty as to what people would be like if we time travel them because I don't know what that entails (nor what others imagine it entails). I am happy to reiterate what was implicit above, Olajuwon's best FT% season is worse than Jokic's worst.

For reference some players in those career ranges.

.820-.840 shooters 1000 attempts (list from circa 3 years ago)


.702-.722 ft% shooters (same requirements)


I believe Olajuwon was better from long midrange from the field than his FT% would indicate (though I think he was stronger in the shorter midrange).

I don't know what Olajuwon would be (not least for the uncertainty of time machine stuff) nor how he would optimally focus today. I do though see little reason to show near certainty that Olajuwon would be in Jokic's ballpark as a shooter.

Two lists of free throw shooters, practically all of whom played their whole careers before the 3-point explosion? What exactly is your point there?

Again not sure what you are looking for.

I'm trying to keep this constructive.

Read the post and it states, among other things (that you appear to have disregarded) that the lists purpose is to give some context on the caliber of shooter in each's FT% vicinity.
But if you want a blunter version.

Above plus 3pt% above .35 (min 50 makes)
list 1
Vinny Del Negro
CJ McCollum
Eric Piatkowski
Michael Redd
Aaron Brooks
Karl-Anthony Towns
Terry Porter
Nick Young
Kemba Walker
Cuttino Mobley
Keith Van Horn
Damon Stoudamire
Byron Scott
Kenny Smith
Howard Eisley
Kevin Love
Manu Ginobili
John Stockton
Wesley Matthews
Dee Brown
Jim Jackson
Arron Afflalo
Zach LaVine
Andrea Bargnani
Brent Barry
Channing Frye
Deron Williams
Tobias Harris
Gordon Hayward
Leandro Barbosa
Doug Christie
O.J. Mayo

list 2
Quentin Richardson
Raef LaFrentz
Jason Richardson

You'll notice which list shrunk more.

The problem with your lists is that they are irrelevant to this particular thread, as Hakeem doesn't belong in the lower one.

As in my comment above, there's a nearly 5,000 free-throw sample size over his last 13 seasons to prove it. For a bit of context, that's more seasons - and surely far more attempts - than many/most of the guys in those lists probably had in their entire careers.

[sp6r=underrated]

Both known as quite good offensive players from mid range, do you think they would've been reliable 3pt shooters in today's game, in a similar manner to the likes of Embiid and Jokic?

Which other all time great centers would develop a reliable 3pt game?

Embiid, Jokic are both career ft% north of 80 (Jokic 83%, never south of .80) quite far I would think (given my assumption on ft% distribution) above where Ewing (.74; peaking .775) Olajuwon (.712, better in early-to-mid 90s, peaking .787) resided.

As ever people can play time machine stuff how they want with different assumptions, so I won't go to any absolutes. But as a solid proxy for purity of stroke in consistent conditions I'd say as it was they were decidedly worse pure shooters than the modern comps (maybe one assumes their skills translate to getting better looks from 3, shot form adapts better to deep, better shot selection or some other variable).

LeBron is .701 from the free throw line over the last six seasons. Over that same span, he's shot .357 from three on six attempts per game.

It's impossible to know anything like this with absolute certainty, but just having watched Dream a ton in his prime, I know how good he was from 15-18 feet, even off the dribble - and how coordinated he was overall; I'm as near certain as possible that he would've been in the ball park with Jokic and Embiid as a three-point shooter if he'd been born thirty years later.

I'm closer to your thinking. A few things we know:

1. Players practice shooting a lot more now.
2. Shooting coaching has improved.
3. Spacing has improved generating more open looks.

It is hard to say which players would make the leap but my operating assumption is a player between 70-80 from the line with a decent midrange game has a good chance of developing a 3 point shot. A player between 80-85 and good mid range game more likely than not will have a good 3 point game. Anything north of that I assume it is overwhelmingly likely they become good 3 point shooters

I put Ewing/Olajuwon in the camp that they have a good chance of developing a 3 point shot but not certain.

[sp6r=underrated]

This Olajuwon?

Watch on YouTube

In all seriousness, I'm not as familiar with Ewing's range but Hakeem was already pretty reliable from ~19. I have no doubt he could shoot from further if he worked on it.

I watched Ewing a lot. He had a good mid range game mainly around baseline. I could see him becoming a corner 3 guy but not sure about full 3s.

I do think both guys would attempt to learn the shot. And I do think 3 point shooting is learnable

[scrabbarista]

Embiid, Jokic are both career ft% north of 80 (Jokic 83%, never south of .80) quite far I would think (given my assumption on ft% distribution) above where Ewing (.74; peaking .775) Olajuwon (.712, better in early-to-mid 90s, peaking .787) resided.

As ever people can play time machine stuff how they want with different assumptions, so I won't go to any absolutes. But as a solid proxy for purity of stroke in consistent conditions I'd say as it was they were decidedly worse pure shooters than the modern comps (maybe one assumes their skills translate to getting better looks from 3, shot form adapts better to deep, better shot selection or some other variable).

LeBron is .701 from the free throw line over the last six seasons. Over that same span, he's shot .357 from three on six attempts per game.

It's impossible to know anything like this with absolute certainty, but just having watched Dream a ton in his prime, I know how good he was from 15-18 feet, even off the dribble - and how coordinated he was overall; I'm as near certain as possible that he would've been in the ball park with Jokic and Embiid as a three-point shooter if he'd been born thirty years later.

I'm closer to your thinking. A few things we know:

1. Players practice shooting a lot more now.
2. Shooting coaching has improved.
3. Spacing has improved generating more open looks.

It is hard to say which players would make the leap but my operating assumption is a player between 70-80 from the line with a decent midrange game has a good chance of developing a 3 point shot. A player between 80-85 and good mid range game more likely than not will have a good 3 point game. Anything north of that I assume it is overwhelmingly likely they become good 3 point shooters

I put Ewing/Olajuwon in the camp that they have a good chance of developing a 3 point shot but not certain.

This is pretty much exactly my thinking. I might throw in a slight bias in favor of Hakeem's chances given:

A) I watched him so much and therefore have a feel for his shooting mechanics, biomechanics, etc., and
B) superstar-tier players are far more likely to explore all potential aspects of their game within the context of their time

[sp6r=underrated]

LeBron is .701 from the free throw line over the last six seasons. Over that same span, he's shot .357 from three on six attempts per game.

It's impossible to know anything like this with absolute certainty, but just having watched Dream a ton in his prime, I know how good he was from 15-18 feet, even off the dribble - and how coordinated he was overall; I'm as near certain as possible that he would've been in the ball park with Jokic and Embiid as a three-point shooter if he'd been born thirty years later.

I'm closer to your thinking. A few things we know:

1. Players practice shooting a lot more now.
2. Shooting coaching has improved.
3. Spacing has improved generating more open looks.

It is hard to say which players would make the leap but my operating assumption is a player between 70-80 from the line with a decent midrange game has a good chance of developing a 3 point shot. A player between 80-85 and good mid range game more likely than not will have a good 3 point game. Anything north of that I assume it is overwhelmingly likely they become good 3 point shooters

I put Ewing/Olajuwon in the camp that they have a good chance of developing a 3 point shot but not certain.

This is pretty much exactly my thinking. I might throw in a slight bias in favor of Hakeem's chances given:

A) I watched him so much and therefore have a feel for his shooting mechanics, biomechanics, etc., and
B) superstar-tier players are far more likely to explore all potential aspects of their game within the context of their time

With Olajuwon, he was a player who improved a lot offensively in his career. He came in pretty raw which makes sense given how old he was when he picked up the game. I believe 15(?) when he started playing. During his peak offensive years he was a 75% shooter who did a lot of damage from mid-range not so much long range.

I'd say the middle range of possible 3 point shooting for Hakeem is between Dray currently and Horford. Anything outside that range I think is unlikely

For ewing I'm less confident about full 3s but I do think he become credible from the corner.

[Owly]

LeBron is .701 from the free throw line over the last six seasons. Over that same span, he's shot .357 from three on six attempts per game.

It's impossible to know anything like this with absolute certainty, but just having watched Dream a ton in his prime, I know how good he was from 15-18 feet, even off the dribble - and how coordinated he was overall - and I'm as near certain as possible that he would've been in the ball park with Jokic and Embiid as a three-point shooter if he'd been born thirty years later.

I'm not sure what you're looking for here.

These things are correlated significantly - I believe to the extent ft% is used significantly in profiling projecting longer distance shooting in prospects. Are you in disagreement here?

I give caveats with regards to some players have form which works better from range, creation ability etc.

I'm not sure what one ... semi-exception (for a selected window rather than full career, and a pretty exceptional perimeter driver which should be giving him better looks) is supposed to do here.

I wouldn't claim to anything like certainty as to what people would be like if we time travel them because I don't know what that entails (nor what others imagine it entails). I am happy to reiterate what was implicit above, Olajuwon's best FT% season is worse than Jokic's worst.

For reference some players in those career ranges.

.820-.840 shooters 1000 attempts (list from circa 3 years ago)

Bill Bradley
Vinny Del Negro
CJ McCollum
Lou Williams
Eric Piatkowski
Ricky Rubio
Michael Redd
Oscar Robertson
Aaron Brooks
Kobe Bryant
Bill Laimbeer
Karl-Anthony Towns
Terry Porter
Adrian Smith
Nick Young
Travis Best
Michael Jordan
Kemba Walker
Jimmy Butler
Cuttino Mobley
Keith Van Horn
Allen Leavell
Jo Jo White
John Williamson
Doug Collins
Beno Udrih
Damon Stoudamire
Byron Scott
Ron Williams
Yao Ming
Michael Cooper
Alex English
Jim McMillian
Brandon Bass
Charlie Criss
Sidney Moncrief
Winston Garland
Howard Komives
Billy Knight
Armond Hill
Jimmy Walker
Kenny Smith
Nikola Jokic
Bob Weiss
DeMar DeRozan
Brad Davis
Ollie Johnson
Howard Eisley
Muggsy Bogues
Kevin Love
Cazzie Russell
Manu Ginobili
Reggie Theus
John Stockton
Wesley Matthews
Kenny Sears
Dee Brown
Dennis Schroder
Jim Jackson
Arron Afflalo
Dick Schnittker
Reggie Lewis
Zach LaVine
Ron Brewer
Andrea Bargnani
Derrick Rose
Dick Snyder
Rodney Stuckey
Purvis Short
Dave Twardzik
Fred Schaus
Brent Barry
Corey Maggette
Channing Frye
Dave Gambee
Deron Williams
Tobias Harris
Jerry Stackhouse
Gordon Hayward
Frankie Brian
Leandro Barbosa
Doug Christie
Johnny Davis
Christian Laettner
Pete Maravich

.702-.722 ft% shooters (same requirements)

Don Kojis
Ron Harper
John Shumate
Billy Cunningham
Jerome Whitehead
Jeff Ruland
Xavier McDaniel
Quentin Richardson
Loy Vaught
Boris Diaw
J.R. Reid
Jamaal Tinsley
Shawn Bradley
Metta World Peace
Jermaine O'Neal
John Salley
Michael Brooks
Michael Kidd-Gilchrist
Corliss Williamson
Adam Keefe
Corey Brewer
Kevin Willis
Artis Gilmore
Rick Adelman
Darrell Walker
Johnny Moore
Hakeem Olajuwon
Maurice Taylor
Raef LaFrentz
Al Jefferson
Baron Davis
Edgar Jones
Derrick Williams
Andre Iguodala
Theo Ratliff
Gerald Wallace
Tony Allen
Taj Gibson
Anthony Mason
Harvey Grant
Paul Walther
Jason Richardson
Darrell Griffith
Al Bianchi
Samuel Dalembert
Draymond Green
Phil Hubbard
Terry Cummings
Avery Johnson
Tony Massenburg
Jim Washington
Greg Monroe
Chris Mihm
John Williams
Jack George
Mitch Kupchak
Rick Mahorn
Jim Chones
Scottie Pippen
Earl Watson
Tim McCormick
Terry Tyler
Bryant Reeves
James Bailey
George Senesky

I believe Olajuwon was better from long midrange from the field than his FT% would indicate (though I think he was stronger in the shorter midrange).

I don't know what Olajuwon would be (not least for the uncertainty of time machine stuff) nor how he would optimally focus today. I do though see little reason to show near certainty that Olajuwon would be in Jokic's ballpark as a shooter.

Taking entire career FT%'s can be even more misrepresetative of a player's shooting potential than taking a six-year sample, as it doesn't account for skill development - both before and after entering the league. (And, if you like, I'll tack on two extra years: LeBron is .707 from the line over the last eight seasons and .354 from three on five and a half attempts per game.)

Hakeem, for example, came into the league very raw. Over his last 13 seasons, he shot .734 from from the free throw line. That's a 13 SEASON sample size that lifts him out of long list of shooters you put him in. In fact, it puts him basically on par with LeBron's last 13 seasons (.737). Is that too small of a sample for you? 4,762 attempts for Hakeem, and 7,291 for LeBron?

I'm not sure why years in which a player didn't develop a skill should be left out?

I guess you are now arguing that you are near certain that Olajuwon would become a 3 point shooter ... in his later career. This though is not something stated initially and indeed his latter development was something that I explicitly noted in my post. Even in this new line of argument my broad points would still stand, Olajuwon would remain substantially behind Jokic on average and worse in his best year than Jokic in his worst.

I'm not sure why this is split over two posts but

Two lists of free throw shooters, practically all of whom played their whole careers before the 3-point explosion? What exactly is your point there?

Again not sure what you are looking for.

I'm trying to keep this constructive.

Read the post and it states, among other things (that you appear to have disregarded) that the lists purpose is to give some context on the caliber of shooter in each's FT% vicinity.
But if you want a blunter version.

Above plus 3pt% above .35 (min 50 makes)
list 1
Vinny Del Negro
CJ McCollum
Eric Piatkowski
Michael Redd
Aaron Brooks
Karl-Anthony Towns
Terry Porter
Nick Young
Kemba Walker
Cuttino Mobley
Keith Van Horn
Damon Stoudamire
Byron Scott
Kenny Smith
Howard Eisley
Kevin Love
Manu Ginobili
John Stockton
Wesley Matthews
Dee Brown
Jim Jackson
Arron Afflalo
Zach LaVine
Andrea Bargnani
Brent Barry
Channing Frye
Deron Williams
Tobias Harris
Gordon Hayward
Leandro Barbosa
Doug Christie
O.J. Mayo

list 2
Quentin Richardson
Raef LaFrentz
Jason Richardson

You'll notice which list shrunk more.

The problem with your lists is that they are irrelevant to this particular thread, as Hakeem doesn't belong in the lower one.

As in my comment above, there's a nearly 5,000 free-throw sample size over his last 13 seasons to prove it. For a bit of context, that's more seasons - and surely far more attempts - than many/most of the guys in those lists probably had in their entire careers.

Okay, so that's your problem with one list (Olajuwon's).

Even chopping Hakeem to selectively select his best years and not doing that for all other players, a decidedly generous (to Hakeem, I would suggest unfair to all others) and using .736 baseline plus or minus 0.010

he retains

Derek Harper
Shane Battier
Walt Williams
DeMarre Carroll
Dan Majerle
Bobby Phills
J.R. Smith
Jared Dudley
Chris Ford
Rafer Alston
Trevor Ariza
Al Harrington

from

M.L. Carr
Derek Harper
Tom Meschery
Gerald Wilkins
Matt Barnes
Slick Leonard
Mike Riordan
Andrew Lang
Travis Outlaw
Shane Battier
Alvin Robertson
Chuck Cooper
Clarence Weatherspoon
Joe Bryant
Walt Williams
Chris Kaman
Malik Rose
DeMarre Carroll
Karl Malone
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Noble Jorgensen
Shawn Kemp
Happy Hairston
Dan Majerle
Larry Foust
Mark Aguirre
Roy Hinson
Nikola Vucevic
Lionel Hollins
Luis Scola
Frank Brickowski
Desmond Mason
Vinnie Johnson
Dwight Jones
Aaron Williams
Patrick Ewing
Cody Zeller
Todd Day
Don Adams
Tom Henderson
Marques Johnson
Chris Morris
Shandon Anderson
Bobby Phills
Dan Roundfield
Tyler Hansbrough
Othella Harrington
Sidney Green
Buck Johnson
Sam Lacey
Lonnie Shelton
LaSalle Thompson
Kevin Porter
Pat Cummings
Bill Gabor
DeMarcus Cousins
Orlando Woolridge
Wayne Cooper
Mookie Blaylock
Kevin Duckworth
LeBron James
David Robinson
Phil Jackson
Elton Brand
Eric Williams
Andrew Wiggins
Charles Barkley
Paul Millsap
A.C. Green
George Lee
Alvin Scott
Greg Anthony
Vernon Maxwell
Don Ohl
Robert Reid
Tyrus Thomas
J.R. Smith
James Donaldson
Dave Stallworth
Jared Dudley
Donyell Marshall
Ed Fleming
Chris Ford
Arnie Johnson
LaPhonso Ellis
Nenad Krstic
Gene Banks
Bernard King
Rafer Alston
Toni Kukoc
Danny Manning
Gary Payton
Leroy Ellis
Matt Geiger
Trevor Ariza
Frank Selvy
Zaid Abdul-Aziz
Stacey Augmon
Al Harrington
Joe Ellis
Antonio Davis
Robert Horry
Hakim Warrick

The Jokic FT% vicinity converts 32 members of the 85 on the original list to the 3pt list (0.376470588).
The new (developed shooting prime) Olajuwon (versus other players full careers) vicinity list converts 12 from a list of 103 (0.116504854).

Even stacking the deck in Olajuwon's favor ... it's far more an exception for someone in that vicinity as a pure shooter to be a good 3pt shooter.

[Owly]

Embiid, Jokic are both career ft% north of 80 (Jokic 83%, never south of .80) quite far I would think (given my assumption on ft% distribution) above where Ewing (.74; peaking .775) Olajuwon (.712, better in early-to-mid 90s, peaking .787) resided.

As ever people can play time machine stuff how they want with different assumptions, so I won't go to any absolutes. But as a solid proxy for purity of stroke in consistent conditions I'd say as it was they were decidedly worse pure shooters than the modern comps (maybe one assumes their skills translate to getting better looks from 3, shot form adapts better to deep, better shot selection or some other variable).

LeBron is .701 from the free throw line over the last six seasons. Over that same span, he's shot .357 from three on six attempts per game.

It's impossible to know anything like this with absolute certainty, but just having watched Dream a ton in his prime, I know how good he was from 15-18 feet, even off the dribble - and how coordinated he was overall; I'm as near certain as possible that he would've been in the ball park with Jokic and Embiid as a three-point shooter if he'd been born thirty years later.

I'm closer to your thinking. A few things we know:

1. Players practice shooting a lot more now.
2. Shooting coaching has improved.
3. Spacing has improved generating more open looks.

It is hard to say which players would make the leap but my operating assumption is a player between 70-80 from the line with a decent midrange game has a good chance of developing a 3 point shot. A player between 80-85 and good mid range game more likely than not will have a good 3 point game. Anything north of that I assume it is overwhelmingly likely they become good 3 point shooters

I put Ewing/Olajuwon in the camp that they have a good chance of developing a 3 point shot but not certain.

I assume 1) refers to 3 point shooting. If so, most do yes.
2) I can't speak to this (and it depends too on what you mean).
3) Disagree with the end conclusion here. I would argue spacing gives better around the rim looks. I think teams ability to defend the 3 point line in the 80s and early 90s (easing off later) often looks poor. Arguably this was fine as there weren't many credible threats. But I think players are facing worse looks with better defenses and better contests than in Olajuwon's era. My impression is there's less place for standstill shooters.

Your 70-80% is a pretty vast range that I think covers the majority of NBA players. As illustrated above in two different bands players in the the lower 70s are not that likely to have been good 3pt shooters (which admittedly isn't quite the same, though significantly related to whether a such a player could become a good 3pt shooter), and of few those that were, they have been in about all instances solidly good rather than great (which would align with your later Horford comment).

[giberish]

I'd expect mid-late career Hakeem to shoot 3's similar to Embiid. It wouldn't really matter though since he'd always (except perhaps very late in his career) be far more dangerous operating inside. Hakeem at the 3-point line would be relatively easy to defend.
Hakeem would use 3's by drawing extra help defense around the rim and passing out to other guys to take the 3's.

Ewing shot a lot more jump shots then Hakeem. So it's easier to see him drifting out a few feet more for at least some occasional 3's.

[tsherkin]

Both known as quite good offensive players from mid range, do you think they would've been reliable 3pt shooters in today's game, in a similar manner to the likes of Embiid and Jokic?

Which other all time great centers would develop a reliable 3pt game?

Embiid, Jokic are both career ft% north of 80 (Jokic 83%, never south of .80) quite far I would think (given my assumption on ft% distribution) above where Ewing (.74; peaking .775) Olajuwon (.712, better in early-to-mid 90s, peaking .787) resided.

As ever people can play time machine stuff how they want with different assumptions, so I won't go to any absolutes. But as a solid proxy for purity of stroke in consistent conditions I'd say as it was they were decidedly worse pure shooters than the modern comps (maybe one assumes their skills translate to getting better looks from 3, shot form adapts better to deep, better shot selection or some other variable).

Kinda depends on assisted percentage, representation of corner threes and such. Dream and Ewing were both high 40s to around 50% in the 16-23 range in the late 90s, right, so food for thought.